Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all, first off I'm not trying to tick anyone off. I breed my own mice and am fully prepared to keep every snake that is hatched. That said, here is what I'm interested in. I have a male melanistic eastern that I'm curious about breeding him to my normal colored western female. Has anyone ever done this?

My question is, why?
Not that you are ticking me off and I am not against hybrids at all... Just wondering why you would want to do something like that... Also, if you were to produce them, you would not have to keep them if you didnt want to... However, you would have to honestly represent the hybrids when selling them off...

I think you will find that most, if not all the breeders here would not waste the time, energy, or a female Western to create hybrids... In my opinion, you will get muddy looking Westerns that are problem feeders... A bit counter productive, dont you think???

I am certain it can be done but not something worth considering, again, in my opinion...

It would be a full blown hybrid. You would probably get much more love in the hybrid forum with that question.

Jon
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Ultimate Hognose

Well that was snarky.

Well that was snarky.

While I am not going to assume whether Jon's intention of posting was to be snarky/unpleasant, he was correct on both accounts.

You clearly misspoke when you thought that combining an Eastern with a Western would be an intergrade instead of a hybrid. They are clearly two completely different species, the Easterns are classified as Heterodon Platirhinos while the Westerns are classified as Heterdon Nasicus. The first name "Heterdon" is the genus while the second names, Platirhinos and Nasicus" are the species. When a third name after the species name is present, that is considered a subspecies such as Heterdon Nasicus Gloydi. An intergrade would basically be considered if you were to mix, for example, a Heterdon Nasicus with a Heterdon Nasicus Gloydi. Some people are purist enough to even demand that an intergrade only be coined if the two species/subspecies coexist within a specific range of each other where it might be considered that the two might actually breed together in nature.

You also cannot fault Jon for referring you to the Hybrid forum where it is a more appropriate place to ask such a question. Yes, you are asking about hognose specifically and this is the hognose forum, but if you took the time to actually search this forum, you will see that this exact same question has been asked before:

Eastern X Western
Considering a Hognose
Southern x Western

This was also an interesting post regarding Kennerlyi:
It would not be an intergrade.

It's funny that you seem a little defensive though about posting this after saying this "first off I'm not trying to tick anyone off". So, obviously you know that there's a chance of getting less than receptive replies. If you felt Jon's response was "snarky", then why even respond when you knew there was a chance of getting such a response?

Anyways, I also find it interesting that you recently asked this in the hybrid forum: "Perhaps more interesting does anyone know if the Madagascar giant hognose might be able to hybridize with one of the north american cousins?". Your interests in breeding/creating hybrids is obvious since 5 out of 10 posts here on KS have been on the Hybrid forum and apparently not just within the interests of hognose but other species as well. The one thing that, after seeing your posts about interests in creating other hybrid species, is that you claim that you are "fully prepared to keep every snake that is hatched". Well, if your interests extend to several species, that sure sounds like a lot of snakes that are going to be kept as pets.

While I do not know you, I do find it a little bit hard to believe that you would go through all of this trouble of breeding and keeping every single species you hybridize. I'm not saying there is anything wrong should you want to sell such animals, but hybrids do tend to cast a shadow of a doubt on certain species that are also known to be used for hybridization and the creation of new "morphs". Heck, I've seen a lot of people on other forums not comprehending that the simple "cornsnake" they have is actually a hybrid two different rat snakes. The problem is that far too many "newbies" nowadays buy a snake, get hooked, then within a year have purchased 20-30 more with the intent on breeding them all. Not only does this flood the market, but most of these people I have found do not do enough extensive research on the animals they have let alone really know the lineage of what they themselves have purchased which is how hybrids can and do sometimes get mixed in with pure lines. Do we really need this in our hobby?

Anyways, that's my $2 worth (after all, what is 2 cents worth these days anyways?).

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I was simply trying to help you out by pointing you in the direction where people would be more willing to talk about your question. As far as the intergrade/hybrid thing goes, I was only correcting you, that's all.

Sorry if I came off as snarkey. Never been called that before!! Guess there's a first for everything.. Lol
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Ultimate Hognose

N/P
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Ultimate Hognose

Thanks, and I respect your opinion. My interest has to do with an interest in hybrids in general. I would never misrepresent anything, and I do plan to keep what I hatch. My eastern guy was switched over from toads to rodents as an adult with little trouble. I like the size of easterns and the more pronounced display. I was actualy trying to work in the westerns' willingness to feed on rodents right off the bat into this eastern mix. I like the melanistic trait and am curious to see if it is something that will pop up in f2 generations. I often find it humorous how offended people get at the notion of hybrids. If it were so "wrong" wouldn't the biology reflect that in making the two incompatible? I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. I just wanted to see if anyone had tried it before and possibly what the offspring looked like.

Takes much more than a simple question to ruffle my feathers... LOL...

Like I said, I am not against hybrids... I just would not waste a season with one of my Westerns to produce muddy looking hogs that may not take to pinkies...

If anything, I would get a female eastern and try breeding pure easterns as there is a shortage of CBB easterns on the market...

I just do not think you will be happy with the results...

Hybrids can go two ways... Either they will get some of the good traits from the parent species or they will get the bad traits from the parent species... Is it worth the risk??? To me, no...

two of them?
The question came up one day with a friend regarding whether or not the Transpecos ratsnake could naturally cross with a bairds ratsnake. The answer was no since the bairds has 32 chromosomes and the transpecos has 40.
If anyone can find the info it would be great.
I would assume that southern x western would be more likely than eastern x western, but it might not be possible at all .
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes

www.spiderhognose.com

http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/index.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

I do not think the amount of chromosomes would have anything to do with viability of the cross... If anything, reptile hybrids have kind of turned what many think in terms taxonomy upside down and back again... Carpet pythons crossed with balls, burms crossed with retics, condros crossed with balls, womas with carpets kings/corns, corns/bulls, and the list goes on... Not only do these crosses work but their offspring are just as fertile as the parent species...

At this point I do not think any reasonable cross would be impossible to create... All it takes is to have the two right animals paired up at the right time...

I agree that the Western and Southern would make a much better cross and I believe the look of the animals would be much nicer than a Western/Eastern cross for sure... I also think it would "take" more naturally being the Western and the Southern are much more closely related, but I still believe the Eastern Western cross is very reasonable and possible...

Here in MN there are several locales where Heterodon nasicus and Heterodon platirhinos live in sympatry. To the best of my knowledge a hybrid between the two species has never been documented in the wild or captivity. If you do succeed, please let me know.

** I am NOT a fan of captive bred hybrids, had to toss that out there**

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
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