Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My Yellow Amel Speckled King was bred to a Wild Caught Holbrooki back in March/April......She went into a pre egg laying shed but did not even ovulate or produce any eggs......I gave the w/c male back to his owner and I paired the Yellow girl up with a Male Possible het for White Wall Holbrooki that I got from Tom Stevens back in 2008.......She shed and laid 11 perfect eggs.......

3 days ago a normal speckled king hatched. Just what I expected.....11 hets for amel............BUT...........

2 other eggs hatched out Amels.......The other 8 egg are pipping and they are ALL Amel............

What in the heck is going on?

If one of the males were unknown hets for amel there should at least be a couple more normal offspring.......But I don't think either one is.....I asked Tom and he said his male I got from him is not het for amel........Is the wild caught male het for amel.......Odds are......NO......
My best guess is that she retained sperm from an amel male that ISIS Reptiles bred her to last year and one of the normal Holbrooki males knocked up one egg this year.......

I am going to raise all the amels up and see if any turn yellow like the dam.........And I have to pair up one female amel with the PH WhiteWall male and the W/C male to see who carried the gene or if she retained sperm from last year......

What do you guys think??????
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think she possibly did retain sperm. Many animals do this.

Twice now I have had female mice have a second litter even though I separated the females from the male before the birth of the first litter.

Are you continuing in the spirit of the previous post (python eats child), and pulling our leg on that? I have never heard of a mouse retaining sperm, and having two litters from one breeding.

Of course, just because I have never heard of it doesn't mean its not possible.
-----
Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

No, I am serious concerning the mice having a second litter. It is rare; I have raised thousands of mice and only had this happen two times.

Also, the pun on the other thread was totally unintentional! LOL!

About the mice: I think it is delayed implantation, or Embryonic diapause. A warm blooded animal could not store sperm inside her body as the sperm would die from the heat.

But a cold blooded animal like a snake or lizard could store sperm, no problem.

>>A warm blooded animal could not store sperm inside her body as the sperm would die from the heat.

This is not actually true. Chickens, for instance, can store viable sperm for up to a month after removal of the rooster. Dunno about mice, though!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

This happened to one of our female bunnies. She gave birth as expected 6 weeks after mating, then 2 weeks later gave birth to a healthy litter again (she did not have access to males after the first mating).

The vet said that this phenomenon does occur and used to be more prevalent, even with dogs.

About the snakes, no idea.
-----
Mark

I have a ghost female brooks I bred to both a hypo cross and a Snow...figured if the Hypo was the father the babies would be HYPO het anery, if the Snow was the father they would be Anery het hypo/amel. Of 2 good eggs(fly problem)I got one Hypo and one Anery! Sperm retention is alive and well!

I have a ghost female brooks I bred to both a hypo cross and a Snow...figured if the Hypo was the father the babies would be HYPO het anery, if the Snow was the father they would be Anery het hypo/amel. Of 2 good eggs(fly problem)I got one Hypo and one Anery! Sperm retention is alive and well!

A "Ghost" in Florida kings normally refers to a Axanthic x Hypo. Unless it is an "anery ghost" (Anery x hypo).

So how did the anery pop up if the Ghost does not have the anery gene?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>I have a ghost female brooks I bred to both a hypo cross and a Snow...figured if the Hypo was the father the babies would be HYPO het anery, if the Snow was the father they would be Anery het hypo/amel. Of 2 good eggs(fly problem)I got one Hypo and one Anery! Sperm retention is alive and well!
>>
>>A "Ghost" in Florida kings normally refers to a Axanthic x Hypo. Unless it is an "anery ghost" (Anery x hypo).
>>
>>So how did the anery pop up if the Ghost does not have the anery gene?

I see no ghost in his post.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Ghost/anery ghost? Werent the terms first invented by the corn snake people? I think there are more "anery ghost" that most just call "ghost" than you think. But none of this explains the the hatchlings....

i guess biologist cannot grasp simple mendellion recessive mutations and their combonations.
what is your ghost jeff? aneryXhypo or axanXhypo or PbXanery or PBXaxan? do you know?
said you bred it a hypo cross??? and a snow, what type of snow? aneryXlav. or axanXlav. or true snows made w/rainers Tnegs? do you know? or is the snow a triple homozygote(pearl?) if so the hypo is masked and cant be seen.
was the hypo used in "the cross" carrying any other mutations in its makeup?
how is it you figure sperm retention is "alive and well"?!?
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, excuse me for interrupting your lecture but what possible genes could have accounted for such hatchlings given the described breedings?? Ya, I am a biologist and I know a thing or 2 about genetics. Before you rail on try and reread the previous post and post your answer in a readable form for all of us that read your posts with inspired awe.....LMAO! Geez...

here is what i was replying to...

>>>I have a ghost female brooks I bred to both a hypo cross and a Snow...figured if the Hypo was the father the babies would be HYPO het anery, if the Snow was the father they would be Anery het hypo/amel. Of 2 good eggs(fly problem)I got one Hypo and one Anery! Sperm retention is alive and well!

ok i'll try...

ghost = hypoXaxan OR hypoXanery i guess you dont know which your ghost is?

hypo cross = hypo fla.Xeastern was the hypo used carrying any other recessive mutations like maybe anery???

snow = lav.albinoXanery OR lav.albinoXaxan also some snows are actually pearls(triple homo) but the hypo trait is masked.

so you got one hypo and one anery how can you say sperm retention is alive and well?!?!?!??? that outcome certainly could have come from either of the males used?

,,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well, since I bred the ghost x the hypo cross last year and got all hypos I'd say that there was no anery there. And really, how many adult male snows even have a chance of being het hypo?? It would have had to come from triple het parents from at least 2-3 years ago. And if so, have you ever seen other brooksi available from such a breeding? So I figure that one male had to be the parent of one egg each.....IE-sperm retention IS alive and well.

well lets break it down...

>>>Well, since I bred the ghost x the hypo cross last year and got all hypos I'd say that there was no anery there.

>so your hypo cross has no anery or axan in it

>>>And really, how many adult male snows even have a chance of being het hypo?? It would have had to come from triple het parents from at least 2-3 years ago.

> actually alot of snows are at least het.hypo many are triples but you cant see the hypo because its masked by the amel, both anerys and lav.amels were bred with the hypos ALOT so there is a good chance the snow has hypo somewhere in its makeup.

>>>And if so, have you ever seen other brooksi available from such a breeding?

>yes i have

>>>So I figure that one male had to be the parent of one egg each.....IE-sperm retention IS alive and well.

>even if that was so which i doubt . it wouldnt mean it was sperm retention just that both were successful. retention is from season prior IE last season
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, I have yet to hear about a ADULT snow het hypo from anyone....let alone for sale. If you have please provide such info. If you say "there is a good chance" I'd tell you thats not exactly scientific. If you are such a consumate morph guy you have to know how little chance there is of such an event. You should know the genetics percentages pretty well. And you should know that there are no Hypos "hidden" behind the Snow genes, that just doesnt happen. I have snows, lavs, anerys, ws, hybino and plenty of crosses and they are all discernable to the naked eye. Since the discussion was about sperm retention I will note that last season the ghost bred the hypo....and it could have been that breeding OR the early breeding with the Hypo that created the Hypo baby. Either way I would consider it retention.

>>I have a ghost female brooks I bred to both a hypo cross and a Snow...figured if the Hypo was the father the babies would be HYPO het anery, if the Snow was the father they would be Anery het hypo/amel. Of 2 good eggs(fly problem)I got one Hypo and one Anery! Sperm retention is alive and well!

Sounds unlike sperm retention but rather mulitple males inseminating multiple eggs..........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think sperm retention ACROSS seasons is an evolutionary adaptation to a unique mating system. In colubrids such as Lampropeltines it's unheard of doesn't make since biologically. In some rattlers it has evolved. Sperm has a BEST USED BY date, and in Lampropeltines I doubt it would ever span seasons....now within seasons it can and does happen. Just my biological 2-cents.

>>I think sperm retention ACROSS seasons is an evolutionary adaptation to a unique mating system. In colubrids such as Lampropeltines it's unheard of doesn't make since biologically. In some rattlers it has evolved. Sperm has a BEST USED BY date, and in Lampropeltines I doubt it would ever span seasons....now within seasons it can and does happen. Just my biological 2-cents.

So....You are stating that one of the normal males are het for amel and I beat the odds of having 10 amels and one normal?

That biologically makes no sense either......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

My friend got 7 out of 8 albino gopher snakes this year in that same situation, het to het...he destroyed the odds. Each egg is independent of the others. Small sample sizes can give skewed results, it's when the sample size increases that things begin to normally match what's expected. As I said before, the sperm of a snake species that hasn't evolved sperm retention ACROSS seasons simply shouldn't make it. With my zonata I've produced hundreds of clutches...never seen it. I've talked to many other researchers and hobbyists...in kingsnakes they haven't seen it. But hey, congrats if it did...but write it up in a herp note! If it were to happen with z's I'd write it up...but it doesn't, and it hasn't.

C

John,

I just wanted to clarify things, as my two previous responses have been from my phone. You asked for our opinion so I'm simply giving you mine. I think the most possible explanation is that the male you got from Tom Stevens might be het for amel. I've had the wonderful surprise several times over the years to find out that animals I bought or got in trades were het for things I didn't know about. As for the sperm retention explanation, the only reason I'm so steadfast on it is that I've put a lot of time in researching the topic over the years. When you conduct a heredity study you need to make sure you know the paternity of the offspring. If Lampropeltines were known to regularly or even occasionally retain sperm from season to season that would confound the results of a study. A year is a LONG time for sperm to stay viable. It's highly unlikely that's the case. Hell, if you overheat a male it can cook his sperm, how the heck can we ask a female in captivity to regulate her body so perfectly to keep sperm viable from a previous season? As I said, my 2-cents is not on the sperm retention. But as I said, if you're positive, write it up! You need to record it. But also get tissue to someone who can test the paternity for you for sure. Congrats though on all your amels!

Check the sex of those amels, see if they are females.

I don't know if sperm retention has ever been proven (tough to do, doesn't mean it doesn't happen).
-----
Mark

I think you got lucky, and if you need any help with the new babies, i would be glad to take one off you your hands, seeing as how it seems you have your hands full.

Chris Henderson
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni
2.2 Splendida

I have to agree with zonatahunt, in all my years of breeding kings, double, triple clutching them, all while breeding to different species or morphs, I have never seen sperm storage, not even between clutches. And example would be if on the first clutch I bred a female blairs to a greeri, I recieved blairi/greeri offspring. Then on the next clutch I bred her to a pyro, I would recieve Blairi/pyro offspring.

And I did a lot of this. The truth is, you cannot assume if a snake is het for this or that, or not.

Once many years ago, I bred an albino gopher, to a wild caught striped gopher and some of the offspring were striped albinos. At the time I was working a the ASDM, and they had access to many experts and this one fella told me that het for albino is relatively common in nature. Like 1/20 Got me, just what I was told.

Over years when a keeper could not explain something it was almost always dumped in the sperm storage bin. Problem is, proof was always lacking.

In the mid seventies I attempted to publish my accounts on parthenogentic reproduction in kingsnakes, but at the time they said it could not happen. Now we know it can and does occur(Dr. Gordon Shuett) of course, that was explained back then as sperm storage.

So again, my vote is, kingsnakes do not practive sperm storage. Cheers

Thanks for your reply Frank........

I guess the W/C male was het for amel and they did better than the overall odds for a het x amel pairing.......

I will have to raise them up and breed a female to the w/c male and another female to the PH whitewall male......

I don't know if this will prove it, but it would make me feel better.....LOL

What If I get all hets from both pairings....then what?

I guess we will see......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

np

You remember what paper/journal that was in? I've read of parthenogensis occurring irregularly in a lot of snake species (ball pythons, several Crotalids, boas, some Thamnophis off the top of my head) and it's always fascinated me.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I dunno if this is the specific paper that was mentioned, but here's one anyway --

Schuett, Gordon W., Philip J. Fernandez, David Chiszar and Hobart M. Smith. 1998. Fatherless sons: A new type of parthenogenesis in snakes. Fauna. 1(3):20-25.

And a coupla links --

http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/23/science/23shark.html
http://www.herper.com/strange/parth.html
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Nice Fact! People dont expect an to have an anomol, unless they paid for it! Red Heads imo are hypo mel and should,Avoid Sun& shade more than a normal ?

What about sperm retention from the previous year? I've seen MANY pueblan milks lay eggs from a 3 month overwinter without every seeing a male other than spring/summer breeder the year before.....6-10 months between.
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I've personally had pits, rats and milks lay a second clutch without ever being reintroduced to a male but never a kingsnake.
-----
Randy Whittington

>>I've personally had pits, rats and milks lay a second clutch without ever being reintroduced to a male but never a kingsnake.
>>-----
>>Randy Whittington

During one season Randy or over winter?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

same season
-----
Randy Whittington

>>same season
>>-----
>>Randy Whittington

Weird...... I had a calking female lay two clutches of fertile eggs from a single copulation years ago...........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I had the same thing happen as well one time!
-----
Genesis 1:1