Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I wanted to get some feedback on any thoughts on pinky pumps. I've used them before and had good results and made feeding stubborn hatchlings less time consuming. What are your thoughts? Be honest!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I wanted to get some feedback on any thoughts on pinky pumps. I've used them before and had good results and made feeding stubborn hatchlings less time consuming. What are your thoughts? Be honest!

No Need to use them at all........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I got your e-mail with all the methods on how to get baby snakes to eat. I knew most of them already. But you put together a very comprehensive list. I have gotten most of my problem feeders to eat by tease feeding, but my problem is time. Actually the lack of it, lol. I am working an average of 11 hours a day, and it takes much time to get each individual snake to feed. I thougt there might be some large scale breeders who would use them? But I don't think they'll say so after these reviews, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

PinkPumpGuide

I have not used this device, but have heard reports that it can be hard to thoroughly macerate the pinkies for an even flow. If this is for hatchlings that will readily eat lizards, it seems it would be easier to just maintain a colony of lizards. I have a colony of fence lizards for scenting pinks. Just put the pinks in a small jar with the lizards for a few hours, then return the lizards to their cage and feed the pinks to the baby snakes.

I would be afraid of injuring the tiny hatchling by trying to put anything down its throat. I am a bumble futz. LOL!

For your input. I appreciste it. I have used them in the past and actually found it quite helpful and easy to use. But that's just me.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What are your thoughts? Be honest!

ok well you asked for it IMHO they are archaic, barbaric, cruel borderline midevil torture devices designed to kill a snake in the most horrific painful way possible. designed, sold to, owned, and used by RETARDS that have no business owning snakes.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>What are your thoughts? Be honest!
>>
>>ok well you asked for it IMHO they are archaic, barbaric, cruel borderline midevil torture devices designed to kill a snake in the most horrific painful way possible. designed, sold to, owned, and used by RETARDS that have no business owning snakes.
>>,,,,,,,,thomas davis

LOL......Tell us how you REALLY feel Thomas.......
BTW.....I have never agreed with you so much!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

That you don't like them then?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't cause I don't eat Pork any more but I did many time before. Just saying, you may not like the way they make it?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

dude im german descent and was pretty much raised on sausage and have made plenty of my own i understand the process completely.
pinky pumps dont gross me out they are as i stated imho cruel borderline midevil torture devices and are of ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to someone who knows HOW to care for snakes.

another method that might work for you and is fun to make is snake nachos...
ever notice at the end of a frozen pinky pack all the lil hands,feet,tails? occasionally ones broke in half etc.
ok heres what ya do keep all those then get a lg. rats ear acting as the chip break up a few extra pinkys up OR use you pump to masserate them for the first layer then collect all the lil milk curds from the stomachs mmm cheese and garnish with the lil feets,hands and tails the remainder of the masseration can be used as a salsa if you will mmmm mmmm snakes luv'em
actually the lil milk curds aint bad by themselves
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

What are you babbling about man? Lay off the moonshine!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

moonshine? WOW! babbling?!? it was a poor attempt at humor no more no less, no moonshine. good luck with your pinky pump ROFLMFAO
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I tried a pinkie pump many years ago. You first have to kill the pink mouse, then chop it, then try to make it go through the pump, then take the pump apart, get rid of those unconvenient pieces of skin, toes and hands that get stuck and stop flow, recycle the rest, and eventually it will run smoothly, -sort of-.

If you dont do this, you will keep pushing, and the sudden spurts will kill your baby snake.

If you do this, you will lose mouse in the way of smears all over the place.

Better to assist feed, or if you NEED to give fluid food, then use something that is really fluid, not a gruel which

Thats my 0.2
David

You have to kill the pinky first?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

who answered and I respect your opinions if not I would not have asked. I admit I don't really like using the thing, not because it is problematic, but because it's a little gross. It does save time and if you use the adjustable wheel stop it is very safe! I have never overstuffed a snake or injured a snake with one. In fact I believe there may have been a couple extra stubborn snakes that may have survived because of it. I am gonna try fuzzy tails like Mark suggested and if that works well it should save me some time and I won't need to buy another one. Thanks again for your inputs.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

" It does save time and if you use the adjustable wheel stop it is very safe! I have never overstuffed a snake or injured a snake with one. In fact I believe there may have been a couple extra stubborn snakes that may have survived because of it"

Yeah, I'm sure it worked just fine with you using it because you are not a total "RETARD" like some are..LOL!

I have never used one personally, but have in the past used a "home-made" one out of certain syringe parts and different attachments, and it worked fine to keep a couple things alive until they developed a feeding response. Of course some of the prep to make things work smoothly were a messy pain in the arse..LOL!

And I certainly agree Jorge, one needs to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that when the plunger on any of these devices are pressed, the contents do not go suddenly shooting back through the delicate snakes body like a mortar!..LOL!

As you certainly know, there are many ways to address feeding stubborn non-feeders, and I have also used many different methods over the years. I am all for whatever method seems to work well for the individual, as long as hatchling safety and health are first priorities.

Like you said, if any method at all saves some snakes from a certain death and they go on to thrive, something worked right, whatever it might have been...

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah I recently lost a thayeri/Ruthven mutt baby cause it just gave me so much trouble for entire year I finally decided either it eats a pinky on it's own or not. If I had the pump I probably would not have given up on it and it may have strted eating sooner. A whole year was more than I could take and I also thought that maybe this wasn't the genes that should be passed down.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!!,..boy do I hear ya there!....all of us encounter that type of situation now and then. You are probably alot like me in the fact that I don't like the idea of ME producing something only to see it not do well, or even worse yet...starve.

That is why many times I will suggest to a young kid with their parents at a show that a Honduran hatchling is NOT my idea of a good beginner snake for a young kid, or even a very novice adult for that matter..LOL! I just don't feel right about having a perfectly healthy snake that is doing real well initially, to go onto be sold to someone who is only going to predictably kill it somehow in relatively short order. I just don't like to roll that way if at all possible. I like to try and use my good judgement when I can, know what I mean?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Pinkt pumps suck.

use this instead with gerber baby food.

The system is simple: a syringe of the appropriate size with a catheter tube of the appropriate size affixed to the nipple on the syringe. Syringes I get from drug stores or feed stores. The catheters I get at a medical supply house. The syringes cost $0.25 to $0.80, depending on size. The catheter tubes cost $1.97 to $4.50 (appx) depending on size. This beats the heck out of paying $75 or so for a pinky pump.
NOTE: some syringes have a "cage" around the nipple, which makes it harder to get the tube on. Try to find syringes with just the nipple, no ring around it.

I just cut off a piece of the catheter tube to the desired length and affix to the syringe. It is sometimes necessary to expand the end of the tube a bit so that it will fit over the nipple on the syringe. To do this I use the larger round tip on my soldering iron. Just warm up the soldering iron a bit or you willl melt the tubing, then insert the tip of the tubeing over the tip of the soldering iron and gently slide it up until a sufficient portion of the tube has been enlarged. I like to run the warmed portion under water before removing so it doesn't shrink back up.

The tubes in the top picture are #8 catheter tube. The clear one, which is my preferred type, is a #8 FR (for French) feeding tube. There are many types of catheters, but avoid the rubber ones and go with the PVC tubing. My local medical supply house lets me browse - I hope yours is as nice. The Syringes in the top picture are 12 CC and 6 CC

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www.Bluerosy.com

Bluerosy,
I have used your type design for feeding baby budgerigars and wild baby birds I sometimes find in the spring, blown out of their nests in a spring storm.
Works great but then baby birds WANT to open their mouths to feed, so it is easy to get the tube into the crop.
use this instead with gerber baby food.
My only question is I have heard that snakes cannot digest cooked foods and Gerber baby foods are all cooked (pasteurized). What sort of Gerber's can you use with a snake?

You can use liver, chicken, beef. I also add a calcium supplement like Reptical.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I found that many snakes won't keep the stuff down. They spit it up after a few minutes.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I found that many snakes won't keep the stuff down. They spit it up after a few minutes.

I raised one Mexican milksnake up a whole year on Pedialyte, Gerber's Veal and vitamins......With an eyedropper then a syring much like the one Rainer posted.......

After a year she finally decided she liked rat pups over anything else........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

but I found fewer babies spit up the liquified pinky then the baby food. These are all good ideas, and This was a good subject. I don't understand the negative impulse by the pump? I mean I've heard people say they make lizard soups and freeze it, we both smash pinky brains, and fuzzy tails. I don't see the phobia over the pump. It's almost as if there is a status that if you use one you are either inexperienced or a Ree-Tard as Davis implied. It's just a tool. You eat Sausage don't you?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>but I found fewer babies spit up the liquified pinky then the baby food. These are all good ideas, and This was a good subject. I don't understand the negative impulse by the pump? I mean I've heard people say they make lizard soups and freeze it, we both smash pinky brains, and fuzzy tails. I don't see the phobia over the pump. It's almost as if there is a status that if you use one you are either inexperienced or a Ree-Tard as Davis implied. It's just a tool. You eat Sausage don't you?

It causes way too much stress than good.......You will have to pinky pump way longer than it takes to get a snake on a pinky on its own.........

Pinky pumps are just not needed......Period.......My opinion....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I found just the opposite. It took only a few times with the pump and they learned the smell of rodent. I feel like an infomercial, ha ha.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Pinky Pumps can be found for about 30 bucks and are stainless steal surgical grade instruments that will last for many many years. The only thing is the glass barrel can break if you drop it. It comes with a plastic barrel which is almost indistructable unless you soak it in alcohol like I did. That will ruin it cause the plastic expands and never goes back to it's original size, lol. The O ring is the only thing that will courrode with time but they sell replacements. You could even use it to administer your baby food and it's easy to sterilize. I like the pinky squeezins cause it's whole foods and it causes the snakes to become used to the pinky smell and taste.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Pinky Pumps can be found for about 30 bucks and are stainless steal surgical grade instruments that will last for many many years. The only thing is the glass barrel can break if you drop it. It comes with a plastic barrel which is almost indistructable unless you soak it in alcohol like I did. That will ruin it cause the plastic expands and never goes back to it's original size, lol. The O ring is the only thing that will courrode with time but they sell replacements. You could even use it to administer your baby food and it's easy to sterilize. I like the pinky squeezins cause it's whole foods and it causes the snakes to become used to the pinky smell and taste.

I'll never use one....No use for it......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

A pinky pump is one of the best herp tools you can buy. What so good about it is, you only have to use it once to pay itself off.

Its a great tool to use for sick snakes.

Heres the catch, non or picky feeders, in most cases have nothing to do with being sick, they are simply not supported correctly.

Consider, snakes are designed to feed and feed from the start, they are expert feeders. A hatchling snake must find prey in nature, catch it and consume it. That is their design.

Somehow in captivity, folks blame the snakes because we keep them crappy and in conditions that do not support their natural design.

So yes, pinky pumps are very good to aid with snakes that are sick. Cheers

How do you get the snake's mouth open in the first place? (without hurting it!)

Almost any snake will open it's mouth by just gently rubbing his lips back and fourth. Snake lips, lol. You know what I mean.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

How do we know that in nature all baby snakes will eventually eat? How do we know that a percentage of them would die even if there were adequate food present and no preditors to eat them? There are cases every year of people going thru extreme lengths to try to get thier baby whatever to eat everything from lizards to other baby snakes to frogs and everything concievable and the thing still doesn't eat. I have to wonder if that is just the way it would be naturally? Maybe that's one reason snakes have plenty of babies compared to some other animals. With some exceptions of course. Maybe it's natural for some to die off, for what ever reason. Maybe a snake with a non existant feeding response should die in nature so as not to pass that trait down to it's offspring. You know if your parents never ate, you wouldn't either!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>How do we know that in nature all baby snakes will eventually eat? How do we know that a percentage of them would die even if there were adequate food present and no preditors to eat them? There are cases every year of people going thru extreme lengths to try to get thier baby whatever to eat everything from lizards to other baby snakes to frogs and everything concievable and the thing still doesn't eat. I have to wonder if that is just the way it would be naturally? Maybe that's one reason snakes have plenty of babies compared to some other animals. With some exceptions of course. Maybe it's natural for some to die off, for what ever reason. Maybe a snake with a non existant feeding response should die in nature so as not to pass that trait down to it's offspring. You know if your parents never ate, you wouldn't either!
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>>

Here is a thought!
I had three clutches this year. They started to hatch about a week apart.
Clutch #1, with 7 hatchlings, all ate within 10 days, 5 ate the first week.
Clutch #2 with 7 hatchlings, hatched out a week later, sitting side by side in the same rack, same conditions. Only two out of the seven have fed on their own to date, and they hatched approx. 45 days ago. (Different sire)
Clutch #3, eleven hatchlings, Hatched out week of 7/20. Same heat and conditions, same (Sire) as clutch #1, 65% ate within the first two weeks, the last of the 11 took a f/t pink this weekend.
I have used same methods on all three clutches, but clutch #2 just have STUBBORN GENES!!!!
Just a observation!
I myself think genes have a lot to do with it.
Be patient, they will eat sooner or later.
Bob Bichler
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

>>Here is a thought!
>> I had three clutches this year. They started to hatch about a week apart.
>> Clutch #1, with 7 hatchlings, all ate within 10 days, 5 ate the first week.
>> Clutch #2 with 7 hatchlings, hatched out a week later, sitting side by side in the same rack, same conditions. Only two out of the seven have fed on their own to date, and they hatched approx. 45 days ago. (Different sire)
>> Clutch #3, eleven hatchlings, Hatched out week of 7/20. Same heat and conditions, same (Sire) as clutch #1, 65% ate within the first two weeks, the last of the 11 took a f/t pink this weekend.
>>I have used same methods on all three clutches, but clutch #2 just have STUBBORN GENES!!!!
>>Just a observation!
>>I myself think genes have a lot to do with it.
>>Be patient, they will eat sooner or later.
>>Bob Bichler
>>-----
>>R.Bichlers Colubrids
>>http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

All clutches were Thayeri.
Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

of mine for a long time! I believe that when we select breeders for color and patterns we perpetuate other not so good traits. Farmers don't choose their breeding stock on how pretty they are, they choose animals that come from strong bloodlines and are known to be good breeders and have good practical traits which will be passed on to their offspring. We will take a runty barely alive snake and give it round the clock attention if it looks like something we never saw before or looks super fantastic, regardless of any other trait. We have to be producing inferior snakes over the many generations of breeding like this. Just a thought.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Our original founding thayeri stock wasn't that many......And out of that small number (which I don't know or do I think anyone knows) many were hybridized because those "pioneers" didn't know what they had......

We have only a dozen or so pure lines out there.......

I don't believe you can breed for strong feeders....but that is just my opinion......

Along with their variable patterns and colors thayeri will always be unpredictable even when it comes to feeding time........

Raise the heat and go through some steps and they will eat.....It is not the snakes that have a feeding problem....It is our husbandry......They've been around a lot longer than us and they know what they want....We are just here to provide what they want....If we get it right they will thrive......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Raise the heat and go through some steps and they will eat.....It is not the snakes that have a feeding problem....It is our husbandry......They've been around a lot longer than us and they know what they want....We are just here to provide what they want....If we get it right they will thrive......
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>>John Lassiter

You must have misunderstood my post John.
Hatchlings sitting side by side in the same rack, same conditions,and same heat. Feeding responce is different like night and day between the two clutches. Speaking of night and day, I even tried different times for feeding. They do feed better in the dark of the night.Lol
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

LOL...I replied to Jorge Bob......

But here is my reply to you.....
Some thayeri will eat at certain temps and humidity while others will require something different.....dark is always better too......There is no "one" way of getting them to eat, but if all the options possible are given and all the feeding techniques are used.....all of the thayeri will eat.....I've only lost two after thinking this way......One died after one meal though.......Some are meant to not make it just like any other animal......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>LOL...I replied to Jorge Bob......
>>
>>But here is my reply to you.....
>>Some thayeri will eat at certain temps and humidity while others will require something different.....dark is always better too......There is no "one" way of getting them to eat, but if all the options possible are given and all the feeding techniques are used.....all of the thayeri will eat.....I've only lost two after thinking this way......One died after one meal though.......Some are meant to not make it just like any other animal......
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>>John Lassiter
Oh! I agree John. I was just amazed by the two different feeding responses under the same conditions. They will eat sooner or later if you can keep them alive long enough. If they don't eat, force feed a mouse tail every other week to keep them alive untill they take food on there own.
Last year I had a AZ Mt King refuse to eat. I tried every thing in the book including brumation at winter time. This spring,I used the tease feeding method with forcips and he would eat it, but just to lay it in the box, he wouldn't touch it. Untill about 3 weeks ago, he started taking pinks on its own. And this weekend it took a fuzzy.
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Congrats Bob......
As I mentioned in a reply to you down lower in the thread...that is great information and I just added it to a feeding techniques document I have been compiling since 1997......Thanks....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"Our original founding thayeri stock wasn't that many......And out of that small number (which I don't know or do I think anyone knows) many were hybridized because those "pioneers" didn't know what they had......

We have only a dozen or so pure lines out there.......

I don't believe you can breed for strong feeders....but that is just my opinion......

Along with their variable patterns and colors thayeri will always be unpredictable even when it comes to feeding time........

Raise the heat and go through some steps and they will eat.....It is not the snakes that have a feeding problem....It is our husbandry......They've been around a lot longer than us and they know what they want....We are just here to provide what they want....If we get it right they will thrive......"

Maybe they are so unpredictable because they came from such a small number of founding stock? I know they are lizard eaters by nature but so are alterna and I never had as much trouble with Alterna? I know, results vary. I remember reading somewhere that Bill Love was doing experiments on applying mouse scent on eggs to see if the hatchlings would be more likely to want pinkies as first foods. Don't know the rest of that story, sound interesting. I still say the animals we have today have been altered by our selective breeding for colors and patterns, but that's a whole nother discussion.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Snakes are individuals.....
The worst feeding clutch I ever had was from w/c eggs.
10 Holbrooki hatched.....I only got 4 to survive......

This was umpteen years ago.......

And there was a cornsnake clutch that was a pain to get to feed.....

These two clutches were far worse than any Thayeri or Alterna clutch I hatched.........Maybe some of us have the green thumb for certain animals......

Just like Jorge and his bad luck with Pyros.......I have a 13 year old and lots of others now......Great, hardy snakes......in my opinion
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I also have a WC Speckled who is refusing to eat. But I know he'll come around. After all I have plenty of baby corns who are really ticking me off. On a good note some of the Miamis just ate on their own, thank GOD! I' am overworked! I also breed mice and rats!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jorge,...

You are right on the "button" with that my man!

That is a fact that simply cannot be rationally disputed bro!

All the countless millions of genetic codes that comprise an animal's genetic make-up are all part of the "package deal".

Color and pattern are just a mere drop in a huge lake of what the entire genetic picture is really about. Just that most don't care much about a "turd ugly" snake that has other good not-so-noticable genetic traits...LOL!

However if one has great color, good bobust size, awesome pattern, great eating traits, exceptional longevity, calm demeanor, great breeding fertility, huge clutch size, and a few other choice things, then we would certainly have the pinnacle of all killer qualities all in one rare package that we would all die for.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>of mine for a long time! I believe that when we select breeders for color and patterns we perpetuate other not so good traits. Farmers don't choose their breeding stock on how pretty they are, they choose animals that come from strong bloodlines and are known to be good breeders and have good practical traits which will be passed on to their offspring. We will take a runty barely alive snake and give it round the clock attention if it looks like something we never saw before or looks super fantastic, regardless of any other trait. We have to be producing inferior snakes over the many generations of breeding like this. Just a thought.
>>-----
>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

I'll have more input in a few weeks because, the female from clutch #1 (hatchlings that ate good) , double clutched with the male from Clutch #2 (Hatchling that didn't eat good). So I'll see what their feeding responce will be. I will start feeding tomorrow, I just boxed them up individual today.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

These stubborn eaters, have you tried feeding them lizards and they are still reluctant to eat their first meal, or are they just reluctant to eat mice?

One of my pyros. The lizard was a captive bred that committed suicide in the water bowl.

This big beefy pyro started life out not wanting to eat ANYTHING, and the breeder put a live lizard in with him, but they became roommates because the lizard outgrew an edible size. Finally after 11 months this snake ate his first meal, a pinky mouse. By then he was pretty scrawny, but quickly recovered and is now a 13 year old behemoth.

Very nice happy outcome there. That pyro certainly ain't scrawny NOW!.LOL!.......VERY nice indeed!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>These stubborn eaters, have you tried feeding them lizards and they are still reluctant to eat their first meal, or are they just reluctant to eat mice?
>>

I haven't tried lizard scenting on these guys yet, but the tease method with 12" forcips seems to be working well with most.I just slowly corner the snake in their box, move the pink back and fourth slowly, to get the snake to strike and bite the pink. slowly let go of the pink and slowly move back out of site untill he finishes eating the pink.
Once he grabs it he will eat it. The forceups works better then grabing the snake and getting it all upset. Its important to let the snake feel like he's the predator. Get him to come after the pink and grab it. Try not to scare the snake.
Have patients, if it don't work after a few min. or the snake spazes out, try another day.
I did 4 out of 5 non feeders last night in about a hour and got them to take the pink and eat it. What took the longest time was sitting their waiting for them to get it down. if you try to cover the box, they will spit it out and run.
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Bob....That is great information!

I just added it to my compilation of feeding techniques document......Thank you
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Bob....That is great information!
>>
>>I just added it to my compilation of feeding techniques document......Thank you
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Thanks John, it seems to work pretty good, but remember, let the snake be the predator is the trick.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

>>>>Bob....That is great information!
>>>>
>>>>I just added it to my compilation of feeding techniques document......Thank you
>>>>-----
>>>>John Lassiter
That Great John, if you could mention my name in there, would even be more great.LOL
Glad it will help, and it does work really well with patience.
Bob Bichler
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Great information; makes sense in taking into consideration the nature of the snake. Also a good Zen exercise in patience! LOL!

not so much on how can I get them to eat. I have raised many stubborn feeders before and They usually all eat one way or another. I just wanted some input on the pump it'self. My problem like I stated originally is lack of time. Working 11 or 12 hours a day and having an hour commute time, is not leaving a lot of time to dedicate to each individual. Even tease feeding them takes seveeral minutes each to finally get the thing down. I am thinking about buying another pinky pump but I'm undecided. I don't like using Lizards by the way cause they harbor parasites. I guess if you freeze them for a week or two that might work. I never had entire clutches refuse food like I am having this year, lol. All but two Miami Corns refuse pinks on their own. I have others as well. Yet my locally caught Wild Caughts are eating them up.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

A thing I do is keep captive bred fence lizards. So far this has been great for scenting and I don't have to kill the lizards, either, just let them be in a small container with the pinks for awhile to transfer scent. Keeping and breeding the fence lizards is easy and you will have a supply of parasite free sceloporus on hand as well.

Great picture by the way. Are you the same guy from Reptile Geeks who raises swifts?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Great picture by the way. Are you the same guy from Reptile Geeks who raises swifts?
I am Greatballzofire in other forums. I raise fence lizards. I got into raising them when I got interested in keeping pyros, so as to have a supply of native food to get the babies started. But I have never had to feed any of my pyros a live lizard, just sometimes scent the pink with the lizard. I have hatched a bunch of lizard clutches in practice for when I can hatch pyro eggs, which may be by 2012.

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Hmmmmm....I wonder how wild snakes fight off those pesky parasites????????
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hmmmmm....I wonder how wild snakes fight off those pesky parasites????????
If it is external parasites the snake can move away and not get a huge build up of mites or ticks. For internal parasites I don't know how the snakes would deal with that; I guess be sturdy enough to tolerate a parasite load.

In nature they have a normal parasitic load on them, all animals do. But they are constantly moving and so they don't usually pass over their parasite infested stools very often. In a caged enviroment they do. They even poop in their water and even drink some before their master sees it and cleans it. Also stress can aggrevate parasitic loads and compound the situation. Stress like being caged and peered at by giant hominids, or the smell of Fido or Minie. I have used lizards before and I don't know if it's my imagination but the snakes that I have had to start on Lizards tend to not grow as big as the ones who start with Pinks. Obviously there are exceptions like the example of that beutiful Pyro.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

If your conditions would support aggressive feeding, they would eat anything anytime and that is faster then screwing with them. or pinky pumping them.

I could report old pinky pump stories from the days the pump was invented. Cheers

that in the hands of Ree-Tards the pump can be a very dangerous tool. So can a skill saw! But I still have the intelegence to use one. I used one for a long time and my only complaint was it was messy, and gross. Then so is split braining, or making Lizard soup or many other suggestions I've heard. I think there has just been a status attached to anyone who uses them. Mostly by people who never used them. I know this doesn't apply to you FR. You have done it all in the name of Science.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I would be interested in hearing that.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

The problem is, that theory of yours has been a theory for decades, yet you still have that problem and you have it wild offspring from wild caught females. Which means its not from selective breeding.

What your doing is rationalizing your lack of effort or knowledge. No offense, we all do that.

The key to understanding this is the approach you take, and you will see that approach here every year, and its been here decade after decade and recently its worse.

The question will be, anybody know any tricks to get this snake feeding, lizard tails, brain casing, tricking, fooling, blab blab blab. Which is all fine and dandy, except you never read, I kept changing my captive conditons until the hatchlings fed on their own. Fix the problem, not put a friggin bandaid on it.

Most keep neonate snakes LIKE THEY KEEP ADULTS. Which is wrong as neonates are not adults. Think about this one.

Most adults are chronically dehydrated. So what do you think will happen with neonates that have a very low mass to surface area? That means they will dehydrate much much quicker.

Plus the fact that its now understood that gravid female snakes are very very very prejudiced about where they place their eggs. Most think that snakes must pick certain areas in order for their eggs to hatch. Yes of course, huh?

Wait, what the heck good would it be if eggs hatched and neonates did not survive? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm are we really that dumb. Yes we are, we can build this computer and rockets and junk, but have no understanding of simple little animals.

There is no evidence that even simple lifeforms are that naive. We are learning that even single celled animals are complicated. So something so advanced as a snake will only have one reason to lay its eggs in a particular place(not anywhere within the habitat the snake lives, but in ONE place within the area the snake lives)(thats called prejudiced)

So, it appears that snakes, have more then one reason to place their eggs in certain places. And dang if thats not common sense.

If they placed them where there was no food, then the babies would have to roam around finding food and something would eat them(just one bad ending of a million) Or is it was too dry, the poor neonates would be dead in a minute, as soon as they left the egg chamber, which had to be moist enough to hatch.

Now let me think. don't we keep eggs at a certain level of humidity. So why the frog hair do we change that as soon as they hatch???????HUGE QUESTION? Someone give me a good answer.

Do the neonates go thru some giant physical change as soon as they hatch????????? So why would they require something different. Dang, we humans are not all that smart are we? conditions to hatch eggs are also conditions to raise neonates.

Your correct on thinking there is an X amount of inherent failures, Only your so far off its funny. Maybe 1 in 10,000 oh heck even 1 in 1000. So whats your percentage?

What is very weak is OUR METHOD OF LEARNING. If you practice a recipe, AND YOU FRIGGIN DO, then if the recipe has weakness, you will all experience that weakness, and that my sons(I am a old kingsnake father figure, joke) is your problem.

You do not have faith in the animals, you have faith in the recipe or Jimmyjoe mass kingsnake breeder, which is OK, but your faith should be on the subject, the animals.

So, do wild neonates die, most of them do, but its a bit different, most of the time its behavioral failure. You know, oh man, that rock outcrop across that open area looks like a great place to live, I think I will crawl over and move in, Whoops, thats going leave a mark, whoops, thats going to hurt.

Having genetically hindered wild animals is a very naive thought. You state breeding for color is causing this, hahahahahaha good on ya, we have been doing that on a limited basis for all of 40 years. Yet in nature, nature has perfected the physical abilities of these snakes for tens of thousands of years and in huge numbers. Call me naive but the drive to feed must be inherently strong as without it, the population is DONE.

Inherently, they must have many different feeding stradgies in order to survive. That is, they have layers of prey types and hunting conditions, they can utilize or again, they are gone.

Back to us keepers, no offense but, you can add another T. Don't you think your theory is a tad bit narsisstic? To protect your efforts instead of actually solving the problem.

If you think our cage conditions are perfect or even right is very very naive. We collectively SUCK. Heck we must treat for parasites even one parasite, and wild snakes get new doses with every meal. hahahahahahahahaha and they look stronger, what the heck is that all about? Wild snakes can be found with scares that no captive snake could survive, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm yup, our methods are superior. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. We have to be very careful and have everything just right in order to breed our animals. Yet in nature, they breed in all manner of conditions, from wet years, cold years, hot years, floods, drought, tractors, snake hunters, etc etc etc. Yup, we have it going on.

Why is that???????? this one is very simple to answer and answer correctly. They get to choose the conditions in nature, its based on them. In captivity they have NO choice or choices that are so limited that they barely survive.

Back to the problem, CHANGE THE CONDITIONS YOUR NEONATES ARE IN, don't friggin keep trying to trick them. Yes, father FR is laughing at you all, but as you know, hes crying inside. So if I sound a little mad or upset, WEll I should be, after all, these problems were solved decades ago. Somehow, people do not have genetic memory. They tend to keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. Whoops, you know what that means. Try something different, cage the cage conditions, you know, MORE HUMIDITY. hahahahahjahahahahahao09a=ahahahaha. I guess i could have just said that, but what fun would that be.? Cheers

fr rocks
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>The problem is, that theory of yours has been a theory for decades, yet you still have that problem and you have it wild offspring from wild caught females. Which means its not from selective breeding.
>>
>> What your doing is rationalizing your lack of effort or knowledge. No offense, we all do that.
>>
>> The key to understanding this is the approach you take, and you will see that approach here every year, and its been here decade after decade and recently its worse.
>>
>> The question will be, anybody know any tricks to get this snake feeding, lizard tails, brain casing, tricking, fooling, blab blab blab. Which is all fine and dandy, except you never read, I kept changing my captive conditons until the hatchlings fed on their own. Fix the problem, not put a friggin bandaid on it.
>>
>> Most keep neonate snakes LIKE THEY KEEP ADULTS. Which is wrong as neonates are not adults. Think about this one.
>>
>> Most adults are chronically dehydrated. So what do you think will happen with neonates that have a very low mass to surface area? That means they will dehydrate much much quicker.
>>
>> Plus the fact that its now understood that gravid female snakes are very very very prejudiced about where they place their eggs. Most think that snakes must pick certain areas in order for their eggs to hatch. Yes of course, huh?
>>
>> Wait, what the heck good would it be if eggs hatched and neonates did not survive? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm are we really that dumb. Yes we are, we can build this computer and rockets and junk, but have no understanding of simple little animals.
>>
>> There is no evidence that even simple lifeforms are that naive. We are learning that even single celled animals are complicated. So something so advanced as a snake will only have one reason to lay its eggs in a particular place(not anywhere within the habitat the snake lives, but in ONE place within the area the snake lives)(thats called prejudiced)
>>
>> So, it appears that snakes, have more then one reason to place their eggs in certain places. And dang if thats not common sense.
>>
>> If they placed them where there was no food, then the babies would have to roam around finding food and something would eat them(just one bad ending of a million) Or is it was too dry, the poor neonates would be dead in a minute, as soon as they left the egg chamber, which had to be moist enough to hatch.
>>
>> Now let me think. don't we keep eggs at a certain level of humidity. So why the frog hair do we change that as soon as they hatch???????HUGE QUESTION? Someone give me a good answer.
>>
>> Do the neonates go thru some giant physical change as soon as they hatch????????? So why would they require something different. Dang, we humans are not all that smart are we? conditions to hatch eggs are also conditions to raise neonates.
>>
>> Your correct on thinking there is an X amount of inherent failures, Only your so far off its funny. Maybe 1 in 10,000 oh heck even 1 in 1000. So whats your percentage?
>>
>> What is very weak is OUR METHOD OF LEARNING. If you practice a recipe, AND YOU FRIGGIN DO, then if the recipe has weakness, you will all experience that weakness, and that my sons(I am a old kingsnake father figure, joke) is your problem.
>>
>> You do not have faith in the animals, you have faith in the recipe or Jimmyjoe mass kingsnake breeder, which is OK, but your faith should be on the subject, the animals.
>>
>> So, do wild neonates die, most of them do, but its a bit different, most of the time its behavioral failure. You know, oh man, that rock outcrop across that open area looks like a great place to live, I think I will crawl over and move in, Whoops, thats going leave a mark, whoops, thats going to hurt.
>>
>> Having genetically hindered wild animals is a very naive thought. You state breeding for color is causing this, hahahahahaha good on ya, we have been doing that on a limited basis for all of 40 years. Yet in nature, nature has perfected the physical abilities of these snakes for tens of thousands of years and in huge numbers. Call me naive but the drive to feed must be inherently strong as without it, the population is DONE.
>>
>> Inherently, they must have many different feeding stradgies in order to survive. That is, they have layers of prey types and hunting conditions, they can utilize or again, they are gone.
>>
>> Back to us keepers, no offense but, you can add another T. Don't you think your theory is a tad bit narsisstic? To protect your efforts instead of actually solving the problem.
>>
>> If you think our cage conditions are perfect or even right is very very naive. We collectively SUCK. Heck we must treat for parasites even one parasite, and wild snakes get new doses with every meal. hahahahahahahahaha and they look stronger, what the heck is that all about? Wild snakes can be found with scares that no captive snake could survive, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm yup, our methods are superior. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. We have to be very careful and have everything just right in order to breed our animals. Yet in nature, they breed in all manner of conditions, from wet years, cold years, hot years, floods, drought, tractors, snake hunters, etc etc etc. Yup, we have it going on.
>>
>> Why is that???????? this one is very simple to answer and answer correctly. They get to choose the conditions in nature, its based on them. In captivity they have NO choice or choices that are so limited that they barely survive.
>>
>> Back to the problem, CHANGE THE CONDITIONS YOUR NEONATES ARE IN, don't friggin keep trying to trick them. Yes, father FR is laughing at you all, but as you know, hes crying inside. So if I sound a little mad or upset, WEll I should be, after all, these problems were solved decades ago. Somehow, people do not have genetic memory. They tend to keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. Whoops, you know what that means. Try something different, cage the cage conditions, you know, MORE HUMIDITY. hahahahahjahahahahahao09a=ahahahaha. I guess i could have just said that, but what fun would that be.? Cheers
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I didn't make it to the end. my Miami Corns which are giving my trouble are selectively bred over many generations for crisp clean colors. The WC Polk County corns are eating with no hitch. I agree that these little jewels we all love are very complicated and none of us know all the Variables. But we have to compromise to some degree the minute we take them into our homes. Especially if we are giong to breed them in considerable numbers. I can only change so much of the way I keep them because I am restricted by space, time, and money! If I was a Zoo Keeper I would definately do things differently than I am now for sure! Thanks
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I am always suggesting people provide their snakes of whatever age a moist sphagnum moss hide. They can also nest the water bowl in a pan of sphagnum moss. In the wild the snakes have a chance to choose damp or dry, but in a cage unless one provides the variation in moisture the snake just has to live in a man made Sahara.

How I provide them a choice. So they can be wet or dry as well as warm or cool. With my littler very young snakes they do tend to prefer holing up in the moss hides.

If an animal gets dehydrated none of it's systems can work.

I know FR already made this case, but here is more info:

Over 15yrs ago I visited an awesome collection of mtn kings, ruthveni, graybands and thayeri. The breeder was extremely knowledgeable about the natural history of these snakes.

His approach for all of these hatchlings? Humidity, even with the graybands. He claimed that he had much better success with neonates feeding unassisted using a humid, warm hide. His basis was exactly what FR said about where eggs are laid. His success wasn't 100%, but for him it flat out it greatly increased the percentage of babies that fed unassisted on unscented pinks. This info has been around longer than you and I have kept snakes, and yet most of us do not know about it. And it still does not make it into care sheets and books.

Worth a try for sure. Deli cup with no lid or lid with big hole in it, moss, heat pad. Deli cup placed partially over the heat pad. Place thawed pink on top of the moss. Mine fed usually overnight in this way.
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Mark

But isn't what you are saying a bit contradictory? Think about it. You said, to make the enviroment more natural so they can eat an UN-natural food item. Alterna don't normally feed on pinks as first foods in nature. But everybody is missing my original point. John finally answered it after I cornered him, lol. He said he believes Pinky Pumps stress out the animals too much. That is a fair answer. I'm not sure it stresses them anymore than tease feeding but I respect that answer. Thanks again, Mark.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

No, not contradictory. Lizard scenting might be needed for some, that is fine. Unfortunately ranching lizards in quantity is tough to do to provide a more natural diet, so pinks it is.

I was just presenting what others have done that seems to increase the chances of a hatchling feeding. I think this info is fantastic and may help alot of us. Just passing it along.

Pinkie pumps are stressful as all heck to a baby snake. Much better for it to eat on its own using other methods. When all else fails, pump. I used baby food instead of a pinky the last time I tried pumping a scrawny cornsnake, and it seemed to work just fine. Snake is OK.
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Mark

Yeah the info is definately good stuff. I may have sounded nippy cause my blood was boiling from another post. But yeah man I agree. But I don't think the pump is as stressful as many think. I only use it after trying other methods. But when I do it's just to put a little nurishment in the snakes stomach to keep the thing alive untill it's feeding response kicks in. I used it years ago, and actually found that snakes would start eating pinks quicker. It's a good tool if used properly. It saves lot's of time and is safe with good sense. Most of the people who are bashing me for using it never even tried it, hmmm. But they will use a syringe of another kind just not the dreaded pump, lol. Where's the experience there? Anyway sorry man if I came across wrong.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

If the main objection to using the official pinky pump is it can get clogged with bits of pink and have uneven flow or burst of flow, then why not first grind the pink up in a food blender? I use the food blender for preparing baby bird food. It really liquefies the food item so it wont clog the tube. Also works with eye dropper for feeding orphaned kittens.

It is very important to afterwards wash the blender and never tell one's mate you did this!

I never had a problem with it getting stuck? I have pretty strong hands, but the thing has a little strainer/cutter that is designed for that. Also if you have ever defrosted pinks you'll know they get soft. Softer than a fresh dead pink anyway. There is also, a safety adjustable stop wheel that keeps it from going farther than you want it to. I think some people look at it like if you have to use that then you just aren't a good snakekeeper. But they will use a normal syringe and processed foods and give it no thought. I don't have those issues. If it's a good tool and does a good job and get's good results without hurting the snakes, and saves time, then I'll use it. I remeber when they first became popular and many people used them. Problem is like with anything else. You need some good sense and some people did injure snakes with them so maybe that's another reason it's got such a bad rapp?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra