Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.
And you know what that means!!!! 
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders 
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
That you have more baby BRBs!
Ralph
PS. Yay DH Ghost!
Thanks Ralph, yes a few more mouths to feed but ones I've been anxiously waiting for!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Grats Dave. Now you can stop holding your breath. Let's see some pictures
-----
Paul D
Thanks Paul, I've definitely been on pins and needles for this one! Been an odd year, had a lot of unique, first time stuff (at least for me) up front and not a lot of normal ones. Works for me!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Nice. There goes another full baby rack for keepers!!!!!
Now what i want to know, do they all look normal?????
Ive seen two pictures of double het clutches so far, and one looked to have an anery in it, and the other looked to have a hypo in it.
Yes yes, these are both simple recessive morphs, but i think you know the animals im talking about. So dave, did anything very interesting pop out???
I have no idea how it could, but its seems it has before.
cheers
-----
Dave
15.24 brbs
4.8 crbs
Im an aussie in an arctic environment
Helsinki, Finland
All seven look normal, not a Hypo or Anery in the bunch. That said, I see several with an intense peachy head blusg to them and looks like really nice color!! Gotta keep some of these for sure.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
IMO probably better this way, no surprises later, Dawn was a virgin so no chance of retained sperm etc.!!!
Planning on doing Tawney with a hypo male next year and while there could be retained sperm, it would be obvious - Anery looking baby.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
pity on the sex count though
planning on keeping 5 DH males??
-----
Dave
15.24 brbs
4.8 crbs
Im an aussie in an arctic environment
Helsinki, Finland
Nope, I'd keep two at most, more likely one. Still, got two females, better then one or none!! I knew it would be a small litter at best.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
As far as I know, this is only the 4th clutch of double-hets that has been produced. David is right, in two of the first three, some strange things occurred. In my 2006 clutch, we got two anerys. Ken K. got a clutch early this year or last that contained a hypo. Interestingly, all of the anomalies have been female.
Congratulations Dave, but what gives???? Don't leave us hanging. Inquiring minds want to know.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
Nothing unexpected in this litter, just nice looking normals. I know of the odd ones and first things that come to mind are retained sperm or parthogenesis. Of course always the remote possibility one visual parent was het for the other trait but not enough visual babies to support that theory unless the odds were wayyyyyy off.
Sorry but it was late and I just wanted to get them all tucked in and off to bed. Also curious on how much response and how long before they were ID'd as DH's.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Nice looking snakes at any rate. They have great color. Again, congratulations.
I am starting to suspect that the odd occurrances we are seeing are related to the sex chromosome (if snakes have a sex chromosome). I've seen four animals show up unexpectedly in variuos clutches and all have been female. I think it may be related to something called a barr body.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
Congrats Dave, I can't wait to see the future of BRB's
-----
Zack Greens Reptiles
SWEEEETTT!! Now you MUST show us pics!!!
-----
Aubrey Ross
Thanks Aubrey!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Its an eclipse?
-----
PHLdyPayne
Forum Princess
Nope, even better, Hypo x Anery for DH Ghosts!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
LOL, looks like many of you knew exactly what that meant!!! DH Ghost BRB's!!
Dawn is a small hypo female, bred by Popeye an Anery male so all be babies are DH Ghosts (Het Hypo and Het Anery). Nothing odd popped out of the litter, all normal looking babies as expected. Dawn was looking even smaller earlier in the season making me think she wasn't gravid. Then she swelled up some and stopped eating. Still not huge by any means but clearly holding onto something inside. Then on 08/22 I heard little heartbeats with my fetal heart monitor. Then I knew there was some number of babies inside. She just had to hold onto them long enough so they would be viable once born.
I had her due date pegged 09/04 so I've been watching her like a hawk. Up until a few days ago she was solidly entrenched in her damp hide. Then I found her in her water bowl cool, starting to move around. After that, she move back and forth between the water bowl and hide, about every 12 hours or so. Sunday she started the day in her hide and mid day moved to her water bowl and coiled up in there for a nice soak. Last I checked at 9PM she was still coiled up in her bowl not moving. Then around 10:30 I was doing some cleaning and noticed the water was not clean any more. She was half out of the bowl and her litter was in the bowl with several already out of the sacks and moving around. Remember, for my gravid about to deliver girls I put an inverted clay dish in the water bowl and not a lot of water for just this scenario.
I hastily opened the cage and pulled her and the water bowl out. She was clearly in a defensive mood but did not strike at me as I pulled the rest of her from the bowl and put her back in her cage. Then I pulled the clay dish and dumped out as much water as I could into a tub. I always feel better when the water level is even lower. Quick count was 7 babies and three slugs. Transferred all the babies to another tub with damp paper towels including two still in their sacks.
Sorry but no pics of the process up to now, only a couple of group pics after cleanup. I was in a hurry to get them out of the water as fast as I could.
Sexed them and is a male heavy mix, 5.2 babies mostly at 30 grams each.
I'm just happy Dawn delivered me a few healthy babies!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Sorry, posted the same pic twice, here are both pics...
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Those babies look terrific. They have a real clean pattern and the beginnings of nice color... Not to mention the whole double het thing 
Now you just need to hold your breath for 3-4 more years
-----
Paul D
Nice looking babies, Dave! Too bad about the ratio though. At least you got some females!
-----
Aubrey Ross
Parthogenesis is not known to occur in BRB's but has been alluded to in other boa species. Mikes comment that all the unexpected visual morphs were female could lead down that path if all visual morphs were the same morph as mom. I honestly don't know if the babies match the mom's but I think they do
My bigger concern with prior DH litters having odd outcomes would be retained sperm. It's been seen over and over that prior year males sperm in BCI has fertilized current year ova resulting in morphs that should not have occurred. If that were to happen in a Hypo x Anery cross, the odd outcome morphs would be from that retained sperm but an even bigger concern and possible huge monkey wrench would be if the prior male was a het.
In 2006 Mike produced a litter of DH Ghosts using his Hypo male and an Anery female from Robert Seib. In that litter there were two Anery looking babies along with the normal ones. In 2009 Ken K produced a litter of DH's form Sarp Anery male and Lockwood Hypo Female, Also with an unexpected Visual female baby, this time a Hypo. Totally unexpected and I can only think of three possibilities:
1) Mikes Hypo male is het Anery and/or Ken's Anery male is het Hypo - Possible but unlikely and odds do not support the theory, not enough visual babies produced to support Het x visual pairing expected outcomes.
2) Parthogenesis - those two Anery babies and one Hypo baby are from the respective moms only and not fertilized by the associated males. Real possibility.
3) Retained sperm - Those three babies were actually sired by a prior year male. A real possibility??
Now for the kicker, IF #3 was the cause of the visual Anery and/or Hypo babies AND IF the prior year males were het for their respective traits (IMO VERY likely) THEN, some of the "normal" looking babies could have also been sired by the same het males. So those two litters of DH Ghosts might not all be DH Ghosts?? Ouch!!!
Again, this is all speculation, only thinking my way through the possibilities.
Would love for Ken, Mike and/or Robert to chime in with missing details (or to correct any errors I may have).
I did speak with Robert recently and he did not think he hit on the ghost in this years litters. Waiting for sheds to get a better look.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Hmmmm, Just got word from Ken the Hypo female was a virgin female and only bred with the Anery male.....
So in that litter, only two possible scenarios.
1) Ken's Anery male is het Hypo - Possible but unlikely as the odds do not support the theory, not enough visual babies produced to support Het x visual pairing expected outcomes.
2) Parthogenesis - the Hypo baby is from the mom only and not fertilized by the Anery male. IMO a very likely possibility.
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
It's a little hard for me to swallow any of those theories. Our Anery females were virgin as well. I think the odds of my hypo male being het for anery as well are remote.
Parthenogenesis doesn't sit well with me. I don't see why an animal would reproduce sexually and asexually. In my case, the two anery females did come from an anery mother. However, I have had a hypo show up unexpectedly from a normal mother bred to a hypo male. I bred this same female two other times and she never produced another hypo.
I still contend that something is going on genetically. In human females it is accepted that sometimes one of the X-chromosomes goes into a state of dormancy. That X-chromosome is referred to as a Barr body. All of the genes located on that chromosome are dormant as well. This is why it is common for human females to have inactive sweat glands over portions of their bodies. The only active sweat glands are coded for on the active x-chromosome. We see this in other species as well. I believe it is what accounts for calico cats. What if the same thing is happening in our boas. One of the females sex chromosomes may be dormant. If the snake is a het and the dormant chromosome carries the dominant allele, the recessive will be expressed.
I don't know too much about snake chromosomes. Does anyone else?
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
OK so I know that there are species who reproduce sexually and asexually but do they do it at the same time? It's my understanding that one mechanism turns off when another turns on.
Can someone describe the evidence for parthogenesis in boas? Is it based on an entire clutch or only some members within a clutch?
It would be cool if a DNA test could be done on snakes.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
>>I still contend that something is going on genetically. In human females it is accepted that sometimes one of the X-chromosomes goes into a state of dormancy. That X-chromosome is referred to as a Barr body.
One X chromosome is ALWAYS dormant in mammalian cells. Well, let's say it is always dormant in NORMAL mammalian cells.
HOWEVER, it is not the same X chromosome that goes dormant throughout the entire body. For instance, Cell A may have X chromosome #1 active -- while its next door neighbor, Cell B, may have X chromosome #2 active. This is why calico cats have **patches** of color. In cats, the orange/black gene is sex-linked -- so, if X chromosome #1 is carrying orange and X chromosome #2 is carrying black, the cat will have orange patches wherever X chromosome #1 is active and black patches wherever chromosome #2 is active.
THEREFORE -- if this same phenomenon were at work with your unexpected hatchlings, you would expect them to have PATCHES of color -- not one solid unexpected color. But then again, sex chromosomes appear to work differently in herps than in mammals -- so who knows??
-----
----
0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters
This conversation has some really interesting information... but you guys are WAAAYY too smart for me, lol! 
-----
Aubrey Ross
I'm barely past the put a male and a female together and get babies!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Good point. Thank you.
I did a little reading last night and learned what a few of you already know - that snakes operate on the ww/zw system of sex chromosomes. This could explain our anomalies. If the "color gene" were located on the "w' chromosome, a het male would not show the recessive trait. However, since a female only has one copy of the "w" chromosome, if she inherited the recessive allele, this is all she would be capable of expressing.
Perhaps the anery gene is recessive sex-linked???
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
Hmmm, remember it happened to Ken as well but got a hypo baby???
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Snakes (like birds) have a ZW sex chromosome system. Females posses a Z and a W chromosome whereas males possess two Z chromosomes.
The phenomenon you're referring to is known as x-chromosome inactivation, the process in which one of two x chromosomes in female mammals is randomly inactivated in each cell through packaging as heterochromatin which is transcriptionally inactive. The x-chromosome that becomes inactive in each cell remains inactive for the lifetime of that cell and its descendants in that organism. As you also pointed out, these inactivated chromosomes are referred to as bar bodies. However, since snakes have a ZW sex chromosome system, male snakes contain bar bodies (Z-chromosome inactivation) not females, the opposite of humans, with an XY chromosome system.
Thanks for clearing that up. I forgot that different x-chromosomes inactivate throughout the body. This makes sense though because of the "patchiness".
This does support the idea that the anery gene is recessive sex-linked though, doesn't it???
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
>>This does support the idea that the anery gene is recessive sex-linked though, doesn't it???
Actually, no.
If female snakes are ZW and males are ZZ, and if a gene is sex-linked (on the Z chromosome), then the female would only be able to pass that gene on to her SONS -- not her daughters. I wish I could draw a diagram here! Ahhh, I know, here ya go....
Therefore, you would not see the mother-to-daughter transmission that you have reported with the anery trait. An anery mother would produce heterozygous sons, and normal daughters. An anery SIRE, however, would produce anery DAUGHTERS, and heterozygous sons.
-----
----
0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters
>Therefore, you would not see the mother-to-daughter transmission that you have reported with the anery trait. An anery mother would produce heterozygous sons, and normal daughters. An anery SIRE, however, would produce anery DAUGHTERS, and heterozygous sons.
Exactly. But just to clarify, though it's somewhat obvious already from your message. If it were a sex-linked trait, a visual anery father would produce 100% anery daughters and 100% heterozygous sons.
>>Exactly. But just to clarify, though it's somewhat obvious already from your message. If it were a sex-linked trait, a visual anery father would produce 100% anery daughters and 100% heterozygous sons.
Yup.
Doncha love sex chromosomes....always making SOMETHING complicated....
I don't breed snakes (at least not yet), but I do breed chickens. And, unfortunately, there are an annoying number of traits on chicken sex chromosomes -- like the genes for leg coloring, barred feathers, gold vs. silver feather coloring, and so on. Sometimes it can make breeding decisions pretty complicated!
-----
----
0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters
>I don't breed snakes (at least not yet), but I do breed chickens. And, unfortunately, there are an annoying number of traits on chicken sex chromosomes -- like the genes for leg coloring, barred feathers, gold vs. silver feather coloring, and so on. Sometimes it can make breeding decisions pretty complicated!
I breed parrots. It's the same with parrots, quite a number of colour mutations occurring on the sex chromosomes.
>>I breed parrots. It's the same with parrots, quite a number of colour mutations occurring on the sex chromosomes.
What species of parrots? I've got other birds as well, including Amazons (thus one of the reasons for my user name), but I have never purposefully bred the others (society finches and quail don't count!).
Two of the things that I like about chicken breeding are the short interval between generations, and the prolific laying. Those traits make it much easier to play with various traits than in species like either snakes or parrots!
-----
----
0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters
>What species of parrots? I've got other birds as well, including Amazons (thus one of the reasons for my user name), but I have never purposefully bred the others (society finches and quail don't count!).
Two of the things that I like about chicken breeding are the short interval between generations, and the prolific laying. Those traits make it much easier to play with various traits than in species like either snakes or parrots!
I raise colour mutations in: Cockatoos, Amazons, Eclectus, African Greys, Dusky Pionus and Senegal parrots. That's my primary interest is in the colour mutations.
In addition, I also raise black cockatoos (Red-tail blacks, White-tail blacks and Gang-gangs)
The parrots are more like the snakes, in that the breeding generations are long! Usually on the order of 5-10 years to reach maturity.
But I think we're a little off topic now!
WOW -- OT or not, I'm very impressed. With several of those birds I didn't even know there WERE color mutations.
Please tell me you have a web site with wonderful pics??
-----
----
0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters
He does!!!!
-----
Thanks,
Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders
lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
Can someone post up a link to this site? I think it would be really interesting to see, and I have always had a parrot on my major WISH list!!
-----
Ike Lightner
2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
Hi, my website is http:///www.eclod.com
It has some of my birds, orchids and fish. But no reptiles yet. I'm working on a reptile page and need to update more photos on the other pages. I have about 2,000 photos of birds, fish, orchids and reptiles waiting to upload, but just don't have the time!
Thanks
Ralph
>But just to clarify, though it's somewhat obvious already from your message. If it were a sex-linked trait, a visual anery father would produce 100% anery daughters and 100% heterozygous sons.
On the flip-side. If it were a sex-linked recessive trait, breeding a visual anery female to a non-anery (het or visual) male would produce 100% het anery sons and 100% normal (no hets at all) females.
Doh! Sorry, it's been a couple of years since I've taught genetics.
Thanks for pointing out yet another of my inadequacies (kidding).
Back to the drawing board...
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com
for example, in one of those litters of Double Hets where a visual has been produced, what have been the results when that animal has been bred??
Im guessing that this hasnt happened yet with the rainbows, as the earliest double hets, have only just come of age.
But with say BCI, what have the results been from these odd occurances when the animals were bred?
I dont have the knowledge on the subject as some of you guys do, but it has my wondering, if they are in someways like a paradox.
Its my understanding that many of the paradox albino balls, when bred to another albino, have also produced hets. Thus they are just hets themselves, while showing some albino colouration somehow. Could this be the same possibility?
Ie the hypos and aneries that have been produced, are actually just hets, with some leaky gene showing thru?
While the odds of parthenogenesis seem long, the odds of mikes original hypos, also being het anery, but with only 2 anerys produced out of all his clutches, would be in the millions. I play the lotto, and my odds aint that good!!!
Mike, the anery females that you and robert produced, where they bred to double het males this year, or aneries?? these could prove out some of the info i guess.... maybe... ah i dont know anymore....
cheers
-----
Dave
15.24 brbs
4.8 crbs
Im an aussie in an arctic environment
Helsinki, Finland
Congratulations Dave,
Very interesting informations.
Very nice...Very nice...I LIKE IT.=)
Hope we will also see some ALBINO BRB soon....
KEN KETSUWAN
http://rainbowsdream2006.webs.com
I think were all holding a breath for that one Ken. While we wait, im sure Ian G, is stacking up on his collection of albino hets
-----
Dave
15.24 brbs
4.8 crbs
Im an aussie in an arctic environment
Helsinki, Finland
Help, tips & resources quick links
Manage your user and advertising accounts
Advertising and services purchase quick links
