Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are some outdoor shots demonstrating the difference between an ambient temp and a surface temperature. Notice the disparity between some of the numbers (almost 30 degrees) Hot days (90 degrees plus) produce numbers much higher than this. These were shot in my backyard around 5 pm. Inland bearded dragons are most active during their spring, which is august through october and can be very warm.

Surfaces shot were patio brick, landscape mulch, and wooden fence

Good sample of difference in air temp and surface temp...though what you used as an example for air temp (from what it looks like) is just the local forecast high/low. It would have been better to use an actual thermometer measuring air temperature, instead of the forecast.

Forecast temperatures usually indicate temperatures at certain areas in a city and this temperature can vary alot in different locations. Air temperature is also very different in the middle of a city with lots of tall buildings, pavement, asphalt etc, heat can radiate or reflect from. But in the country side, the air temps can be as much as 20F different.

Though city air temp can easily provide a very good sample of how radiating heat from surfaces can also increase air temperature around them. Thus cages in mostly direct sunlight can quickly overheat as solid sides warm up and start reflecting (especially if glossy, like glass.)
-----
PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

So, do you think the ambient temp of about 90-100 degree is enough right under the basking light? My dragons grow like crazy are the biggest ones around here... Well, it's a small town/city where I live!

Ambient temperature in the basking area shouldn't be that high...80-90F is high enough. The surface temp for the basking spot should be 100-120F.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Interesting, a weather forecast and picture of a temp. gun.

Where are the pictures of your modern husbandry and vast experience? You say I post the same 5-6 pictures over and over again. But mine show my time, commitment and experience with Bearded Dragons and their care. Yours tell me that today would be a good day to wear shorts and a tee shirt.

Oh that's right, you told me that you posted a picture before and I should remember. Well I do remember it and I also remember when another poster emailed me saying it didn't look to "modern" to him either. lol.

Step up to the plate and show your dragon and enclosure and let the readers be the judges of just how experienced you are.

I took these yesterday morning and around noon. I would trust my local weather station to provide accurate air temps, you experts can take that up with them though if you'd like. On a cool but nice 65 degree day here in Illinois, I was able to pull more than 130 degree surface temps from landscape mulch at noon. This should illustrate what kind of surface temps are available to lizards in the wild. The others shots are the mulch at 09:00 and grassy soil at noon. Hotter days produce numbers much higher than these, and it would be extremely naive to think they don't make use of them, as lizards cannot produce their own heat. They rely on what is available to them, and if we are playing the numbers game 105 is very low. See before I bought a temp gun my dragons probably basked at 160 surface temps or more. I used sand substrate, high wattage bulbs, a resin-type basking log and that bugger really cooked up. Much more than the top of the retes stacks. So when I say that 130 surface basking temps are fine for bearded dragons, I mean it. Do not discredit what you lack the ability to understand.

Temp shot at noon

Here are some pics of my single dragon kept in deplorable conditions

a few more

Awesome trough set-up! The stacks are my fave! Great place to rest and conserve. Providing different temps for your beardeds is great, takes all the guess work out of the he say, she say, and let the beardeds say, what they want or need.

What size trough are you using? If you have any other pics, I'd like to see them, as I'm sure others would too. Awesome pics, thanks for sharing. Cheers.

Glad to see my prompting got you to improve their environment somewhat all of a sudden. Interesting how it is a brand new trough with brand new retes stacks. It's obvious they have'nt been in there for long.

For one that size is way too small for more than one dragon.

It's also interesting how you don't show the lighting or heating. Just forgot or are you hiding something?

Why don't you send me the receipt showing when you bought all that stuff like I did to you?

""Glad to see my prompting got you to improve their environment somewhat all of a sudden. Interesting how it is a brand new trough with brand new retes stacks. It's obvious they have'nt been in there for long.""

The only prompt was to get some pictures up. I'm really impressed too that you can tell the difference between a brand new stock tank, and a used one. Considering that when you buy them they are usually kept outside, allowed to be weathered, and all look the same minus size, dings and dents. But you're an expert on stock tanks, my apologies for the mix-up. Also use those old eyes of yours to take notice to the white uric stains on the top of the stack. See I haven't been able to get those out, wood is a somewhat porous surface and when I am away at work if a rare poop is up there the heat will help cook it in. I have built about 5 of these stacks.

"For one that size is way too small for more than one dragon."

It seems adequate to the dragons. The they use each level in the stack top to bottom, and they can all bask up on the top together. I've kept this group of females together for 2 years without issues. I have seen on many occasions on dragons being quite social to one another when housed together, but I have had simply incompatible animals too.

""It's also interesting how you don't show the lighting or heating. Just forgot or are you hiding something?""

I wanted to get decent pictures so I took the top off. Its an 8 inch dome, 50 watt halogen flood bulb inside that sits on a acrylic sheet with metal grate. 2ft strip light no UVB just a 6500K fluorescent bulb to replicate the daylight spectrum. I'm a big believer with the monitor guys that no UVB is necessary if you supplement diet with vitamin D3.

""Why don't you send me the receipt showing when you bought all that stuff like I did to you?""

Sorry I'm not creepy like you and keep receipts for things I have paid for, minus a big screen TV or something like that. I am also done playing cat and mouse with you. I feel that I have demonstrated enough knowledge to know what I am talking about. And it's clear to me now that this forum will never advance with you harrassing certain individuals with your narrow minded regurgitation and verbal assualts. There is no accountability in this forum becuase the mods don't police them as they should. You have disrespected many people here, I know because they have pm'd me on several occassions to tell me to not waste my time and what they think about you. The consensus is not good. Stop patting yourself on the back for taking your vets problems off their hands too. It's an admirable cause but I think you could help them much more, by introducing them to a better set-up.

Oh and BDlvr, lets not forget when you emailed me that receipt I did sincerely apologize for the error on my behalf. But I have integrity that isn't found in people like yourself

LdyPayne: I would appreciate use of your princess powers to remove my account here. I don't want to keep taking away from the positivity this forum deserves. Many thanks

This is about the 5th time you've said to remove your account. I guess you just don't have the self restraint to stop posting on your own?

You are full of BS and your pictures really don't show much experience at all if you ask me. Except maybe that you have 3 dragons now. You'll find it tough to find others that agree a 2 x 4 stock tank is OK for 3 dragons. With the tapered sides and curved corners it's really no bigger than the floor space of a 40 Breeder that you previously posted was too small for one adult dragon.

You and I both remember that you posted a pic. 6 months or so ago of one dragon in a dark dirty wooden cage.

LdyPayne, these are not "my" methods. I would never take credit from those who have helped me. They have been proven to be extremely successful for a number of lizards species, bearded dragons included. People far more intelligent than myself have pioneered the way...they used common sense. Unlike Bdlvr, who cannot comprehend even the simplest of discussions.

I would urge anyone here, biggest breeders down to the newest guy on the block to search "bearded dragons in the wild" on google images. Look in detail, most of the environments they are photographed in native state show red, crusty soil or leaf and wood littered soil. They are most often viewed in the wild basking on fence posts, elevated areas like trees, piles of structure where they hide from predation. They also love to dig.

Oh and look who's talking. Many have said I have helped here. You certainly have not. Your experience was very evident in the picture you posted of your 3 dragons housed in a small beer cooler, with a basking spot barely big enough for one dragon and without proper lighting or heating.

When you've gained a little knowledge maybe then you can make some a worthwhile contribution here rather than just critisizing other far more knowledgeable keepers.

The tank is 4x2 and holds 100 gallons, much more than a 40G breeder that holds 40 gallons. The retes stack provides more square footage than you know, as the stack I built has 3 useable levels at 1 sq ft a piece. Also, soil is diggable and becomes an environment on it's own, increasing the cages useability. The lighting is also more than sufficient for the dragons needs. It only uses around 75 watts to heat up, 50 watts for halogen flood and 24 for the fluoro tube.

PhLdyPayne is right too, BD's are a hardy species and can do well in a number of different set-ups. I think the majority of the issues I see with dragons here are keepers that have positive intentions, yet a complete misunderstanding of temperatures. I was this way too up until coming to this forum around 2 years ago now and I had my first couple of dragons about 4 years ago. So I am definitely no expert. I knocked heads with Robyn at Pro Exotics when I first came here too, insulted him with no regard to what he is really like. After reading some of the FAQ on their site I started getting my thought process to go outside of the box. I bought a temp gun from their store and started to take temps outside of different surfaces. You would be amazed and what kind of surface temps are out there on warm days, and how different surfaces heat up(like LdyPayne said). Robyn was still kind enough to answer my questions that I had and I am still very thankful. His site is full of hundereds of stories like mine, just go there and read them. I like to keep the dragons where I have seen them having the most choices to do what they want. There is no other way I have observed better than the soil set-ups with basking stacks and 120/130 surface temps, no more ambient than about 88. They are very close to nature I presume, real world basking temps so to speak. Varanids are known to bask at much higher temps than you could probably imagine. I don't believe agamid species are as thick-skinned and built like the varanids so they cannot tolerate as much heat but certainly 130 is achievable, and not dangerous at all. They behave like lizards in these set-ups. In my experience dragons are an active species that will dig and burrow, they are good climbers and can jump well too. They have no problem taking one leap from the ground to the rop of retes stack I included in the pics, that is about 9 inches up or so. They like to dig very much too, and I think it's good for their muscles to exercise.

PHLdyPayne, thank you for the kind words. I have always thought that you are quite an intelligent person, and full of good knowledge. The forum should be thankful to have someone of your class to watch over it.

BDlvr I've always enjoyed our battles and you deserve some respect, your dedication to this forum is relentless. There are plenty of things you help keepers here with, solid and concrete information.

"For one that size is way too small for more than one dragon."

It seems adequate to the dragons. The they use each level in the stack top to bottom, and they can all bask up on the top together. I've kept this group of females together for 2 years without issues. I have seen on many occasions on dragons being quite social to one another when housed together, but I have had simply incompatible animals too.

I am only making observations based on the pictures you posted. It didn't look like the dragons could easily get into the various layers of the stacks without ending up knocking the stacks down (unless they are attached to eachother in some way to ensure stability). However, they are your dragons and you see them day in and day out so have a better idea how your dragon utilize them. From observing my own dragons, I know they move all over the place within their setup during the day depending on their needs at the time.

From the pictures your dragons do seem a healthy weight, alert and otherwise thriving. As I don't know the actual size of the stock tank you are using, I can't guess whether its a good size for three adults, or on the small size. All I can say is it looks about 2' wide. But I have seen stock tanks that can be anywhere between 4' long or 6' long so without a full picture or you just giving the dimensions, I can only guess on what the actual size is.

The use of supplemental D3 only is a valid method to raise reptiles but not a method I would recommend to newbies to reptile ownership due to the difficulties in knowing how much is 'safe' without being too little or too much D3. The recommended amount of D3 for humans is about 1000 u.i. per day. I have no clue how much is needed for a bearded dragon. But most powders contain much more, (my jar of Rep Cal Calcium with D3 has 400,000 u.i./kg). Some multivitamins contain 80,000 u.i. or more as well. Thus, care must be taken not to give too much as D3 toxicity is possible. But again, how much is too much...I don't have any idea. I don't think there really is any solid information on what is a safe level for bearded dragons or other reptiles. Yet each diurnal reptile seems to have a natural ability to stop or reduce the amount of D3 their body produces on a daily basis from being exposed to UVB light. (usually by moving out of the sun, changing the density of their skin via color changes, or chemical compositions or some other natural way) which just blocks more UVB light than normal.

Thus, I don't typically recommend an all supplemental D3 method of keeping reptiles when people come here asking for advice on dragon care. I also feel UVB light doesn't just allow an animal to produce D3, that it may have other beneficial effects so some exposure to UVB radiation is a good idea, even if at very low levels.

As for your account Kmartin I have no ability to remove, block or ban accounts in the forums. You will have to delete your account yourself (I think its an option within the 'My Account' area) or contact the Forum Admin (ie the 'Queen of the Forums', my boss) and request your account to be deleted.

Personally, I don't want you to leave as your insights are informative, even if your methods are different than the 'status quo'. In my recent comments I have not meant to discourage, but just point out ways to expression your findings more accurately. Your local forecast may be very accurate in highs and lows...not saying they are not, my point there was most radio stations or meteorologists get their current temperatures from a fixed location (or several, some cities may have sensors in different locations if the city area is big) but there can be variation between the temperature at other locations at the same time as the stated temperature. This is very true if you live in a small town and get your weather mostly from a nearby larger community (like where I grew up. The town was too small to have its own radio station, so our weather reports were from a city about 24 miles away). There were many times when the was a temperature difference..sometimes it was raining in my home town, but as we drove to the nearby city, it was clear, sunny and a good 10 degrees warmer.

I also know walking downtown in a big city when sunny can feel alot warmer than say, out in the countryside walking in a grassy area. Thus, in your temperature examples, the forecast current temperature may not actually be the air temperature of where you are measuring surface temps. That was the only thing I was bringing to your attention, as I felt having the actual air temperature where you are, instead of where the weather station has temperature sensors set up (which for all I know may be ontop of the studio itself). If you live 20 miles away from those sensors...it could be a completely different temperature. But again this is so variable...it is totally possible there is just little or no difference even if you did measure the air temperature in the area of the surface temp readings you took. I have no clue where you live and you may not have variations of temperature based on location even in a small radius, as I can here. (with hills, plenty of lakes and rivers, trees etc. just half hour drive from where I live, at last in one direction, further if i go other directions.)

The pictures did definitely show how different surfaces can hold/reflect heat better than others and there can be a high difference in temperature between a given air temperature and various surface temperatures taken at the same time. That and different materials reflect and hold heat better than others and color plays a factor too. Bright colored objects reflect heat without absorbing as much than dark colored objects.

BDLvr and Kmartin, Others: The purpose of the forums isn't to make people prove what they say is true. There is nothing wrong with open debates as long as all parties involved remain polite, courteous and civil. The whole rash of demanding so and so prove they have this or that device, is all very childish. There is nothing wrong with having a different view about how to care for an animal or even finding the care provided by another is completely wrong. Stick to stating facts, use experience and knowledge to back up when you feel necessary but try to avoid the direct attacks and name calling. It doesn't matter if you completely disagree with other user's method, just say you don't agree with that method, and its fine to state the reasons why (if they are informative...something like 'its just stupid' isn't appropriate). OR even say 'that method works but is not something I recommend for beginners' etc...is perfectly alright. But all this 'post pictures to prove it' isn't really appropriate, and it can be done off the forums. The forums are here to provide useful information for all levels of experienced keepers.

I have been researching bearded dragon care and hanging around these forums for about 12 years, ever since I decided I wanted to have a pet lizard. I wouldn't call myself an expert and I certainly haven't owned as many dragons as the bulk of people who come here, even the newbies who just bought their first couple. I owned a sum total of 2 bearded dragons. The first one I had to sell due to moving, and my second dragon is over 4 years old now. So far I haven't had any troubles with parasites, disease or injury with my dragons and when it comes to medication, treatment etc...I am the first to recommend a vet...as I have no clue what is a safe dosage...nor do I have any way to measure accurately a dosage even if I did know how much (though my past schooling in chemistry/science at least taught me how to properly 'read' measurements (ie for round containers, measure by the bottom of the curve created by fluids, not the raised 'edges'). But others here have treated and worked with vets with sick, injured and neglected dragons for as long as I researched them or longer.

The purpose of forum moderators is to make sure people follow the conditions laid out in the Terms of Service...not babysit squabbling children. Naming calling and direct attacks against other posts is against TOS, but daring them to prove eachother's views isn't really against TOS...isn't technically against the TOS. However we do expect people to at least act like mature adults (whether or not the poster is legally considered an adult). Thus I am asking all posters here to treat eachother with respect even if you don't agree with their methodologies. Point out how you feel its not correct and the reasons behind it...and let readers decide which method is the correct one, even if they choose one that isn't the best way. Of course if somebody gives advice that is totally bad, the number of people saying 'don't use that method, use this one' will be a good indication which is a safe method.

Afterall, it could be perfectly safe and healthy to keep bearded dragons in 1/8" mesh as a substrate, suspended over a 'drip' tray for easy cleaning...but its not a method 99% or more of the people here would agree on. However it may be something somebody used and never had any issue with and still produced generations of healthy thriving dragons. I have been around long enough to hear many different methods...the core '95-115F basking spot, 85-95F ambient temp hot side, papertowel substrate, UVB Bulb and heat bulb' method which is the best general advice newbies should hear, plus the 'soil/dirt substrate', high basking temp 120-130F or more being provided and the no UVB, supplemental D3 only method. Do they all work? Yes...will any one method work for every dragon and every keeper? No.

Each method has pros and cons...even the 'core' care guidelines. Why all these different methods and variations of each method, work for various keepers? Main reason is because Inland bearded dragons are a hardy animal who's natural range cover a pretty varied habitat and temperatures. Inland Bearded dragons have one of the largest ranges in Australia (I think the Western dragon is about the same size, or maybe bigger). Their natural habitat run from forested areas to semi arid deserts, so they can be on fine red or yellow sands, scrub, and forest vegetation. Not to mention rocky outcrops or sections. For all we know the various inland bearded dragons taken out of Australia (either legally or illegally) could have come from all areas of their natural range. I also believe the redder/yellowish dragons originally came from areas with that color of sand dominate, and these naturally colored dragons were then selective bred to bring out the color (Can't recall for certain where I read this...just know it was a long time ago, perhaps from one of the books I have on dragons). So its safe to assume ancestors of these 'regional' dragons may have varying needs. Those from more arid and hotter areas of their natural range may thrive much better with higher basking temps, those from more northern parts of their range, are happier with less high temperatures.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

From the size of the Rete's Stacks (or however they are spelled) they are not right for bearded dragons of that size. A cardboard box of the same height flipped over so the open part facing downward would be just as effective. So the setup only really provides the dragon one really high basking area, and low basking areas, nothing in between.

Not the best way I have seen these stacks used. The would work better if they were wider and maybe a bit higher individually and the soil/dirt mix you are using, built up along one or two sides to provide a 'ramp' leading up to the second most highest rack.

With three dragons, there just isn't sufficient basking room for all dragons to get to an idea basking temperature without climbing ontop of a cage mate. That and this particular trough does seem rather small. For three dragons something that is at least 2'x6' or 3'x5' should be used.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

The problem is you don't keep dragons outside so you have no idea what basking temps dragons will use or hide from.

As I and others have posted many times (but you still can't comprehend) there is no argument that high basking spots exist in nature. But I and others that put our dragons outside know that dragons will not bask in them.

You conclusion that because they exist they must be used is ludicrous.

With his setup...

the dragons are not forced to lay directly under the light and can easily self regulate away from it if need be... please.
-----

As usual you fail to get the point. As stated, the basking area is too small for 3 dragons in the first place but is also too small to give even one dragon a choice of basking temps. It's not a good design at all.