Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i get a lot of time to ponder while driving a truck at night. I started thinking about the phobia over the Pink Pump and realized some of you guys may be shooting yourselves in the foot. I know I have heard many times by people that they would love to buy some of the many beautiful species of snakes like thayeri and some Mexicana, Alterna whatever, but they don't want the hassel of trying to get the babies to eat. Not many people are gonna want to hunt Lizards or put their snakes thru a 12 step program to get it to eat. The Pinky Pump is a great alternative for less experienced herpers to feel like they can take on the more difficult species. But if you all keep perpetuating the idea that if you use one your just not a Herper's herper and even worse by some standards. Then you may ultimately causeing your own sales and those of others to be effected. I know some of you will say you have no problems selling your animals, but they might be even better if we thought a little more about the average Joe who is buying these snakes than our own Egos. Just something to think about.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I know breeders (not me) who kept snakes alive for 2 years on nothing but the pinky pumps. The snakes seemed healthy in every way and then eventually started to eat on their own.

But i don't like the traditional metal pinky pump. just the homemade ones i posted pics of in the post below.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Forcefeeding is a last option. I think using a pinky pump for any length of time is ridiculous. Forcefeeding is stressful as hell and may be keeping a snake so stressed it will never eat...I always recommend patience over any method of forcefeeding.
Like Frank said...if a snake is sick that is one thing. But for babies? There's got to be a better way.
There's only one type of snake that I had problems with and rather than go out of my way to give them special requirements I chose to stick with other snakes instead and got rid of them. However rodents are not their first choice of food...so its understandable they can be fussy.
I'd sooner cool a King over the winter on an empty stomach than forcefeed it. Many wake up and eat immediately. Not that I have to deal with that with MBKs, Brooksi and Cal Kings...
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Well there are other options besides a pinky pump. For starters I brumate my snakes for almost 5 months (babies included) Oct-March. Because that is what nature is doing where I live. I breed later than most and my last clutch is just hatching right now. That way my non-feeders don't have much time to use up any energy before brumation. My non-feeders get brumated and almost always feed after that. So why the pinky pump? I have in the past put mouse tails down their throats, which is way less invasive than a pinky pump. Usually after digesting a mouse tail, it will trigger a hunger response on its own. The other proven method is lizard scenting. I have never fed a cal king a lizard, but would rather lizard scent the washed pinky and then brain it.

No pinky pump here. I do what works for me.

Kerby...
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First, I apologize for not reading the massive PP thread below. My busyiest time of the year and all. So I have been attracted to other people's problem feeders for YEARS now. Not any of the local guys, but the ones that need to be shipped. I figured out a few years ago that babies really like to eat right after shipping....sure enough even other people's "problem feeders". WHY?? Well, chaos, being boxed up, tossed around, change in air pressure, zip code and scenery....has to do something GOOD to their stomach/feeding response! I've suggested before that swapping problem feeders is always the best way to go. PS-if you try off roading with a big Boa C. beware it works on big snakes too!

I have taken non-feeders on trips only to have them feed afterwards. Also feeding them at night next to an open window with cooler temps will trigger them to feed.

Kerby...
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This is interesting! I have found that all the baby snakes I receive in shipping are hungry and thirsty and will eat right away. Dipping a live pink in water helps as they are especially thirsty. Of course the babies I get have already eaten a couple pf meals from the breeder,but still there is no need to make the poor little hungry creature wait another week to "settle in" as is commonly recommended. Adults are also always ready to eat.

I do all the work to get them to eat then sell them........No need to use a pinky pump either.......I sound like a broken record.......

And.....Mexicana and Montane snakes aren't the only stubborn feeders......

One clutch of holbrooki and one clutch of corns have been BY FAR....the worst feeders I ever had.......I guess my husbandry was all wrong at the time, but they refused with passion.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Us folks that breed Alterna, Mexicana & Montane kings don't breed them for just any "Joe Blow" off the street. We breed them for other collectors and snake keepers.......

A snake keeper is not the dumbarse at the beach with an amel burm on his shoulders being paraded around until it dies because it is "cool."

I would not sell my thayeri, mex mex, alterna, ruthveni, greeri, pyros, or zonata to just anyone......After one email I know if they are a snake keeper or not......

BTW.....Have you ever killed a snake with a pinky pump? I did 14 years ago and swore I would never use one again.....The other "methods" and "techniques" will not kill a snake.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

understanding why your so much against it. I never had a bad experience with it. I had nothing but good results and I think even tease feeding is probably more stressful on a snake. The results I had years ago were that snakes began feeding quickly and remained healthy. I am not saying it's for everyone! I do try other methods before ever considering any type of force feeding. In fact I don't own one and haven't owned one for many years. But I believe it could help me cut my time in the snake room getting some snakes to eat. I have a runt Corn snake that I just fed a fuzzy tail. I just am trying to understand the overwhelming panic over the thing. Maybe I am good with tools, I don't know but I like it. You at least say you tried it and had a bad experience. I can understand that but I wonder how many here who are so against it actually tried one?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I tried one about 12 years ago....and I'm against them.

Kerby...
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Tease feeding is my last result.......Then they go down for a winter......After that they usually start feeding within the "steps."

I've only lost two nonfeeder thayeri since 1997......One died right after eating....and I don't know why.........

I've also lost a few corns and a couple holbrooki from the most stubborn clutches from hell.......

Now....it seems cranking up the heat and keeping moist moss in their enclosures is the key.......
Let the snake know that it's freakin Summer......They know what to do from there.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

It's freakin Summer here until December, lol. That's why I can't let them go without eating till winter here.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>It's freakin Summer here until December, lol. That's why I can't let them go without eating till winter here.

I'm in South Texas....the hottest place in the nation......(10 weeks in a row so far with a heat index over 100F)

And I create winter in a brumation chamber that has its own air conditioner..........So.....you can if you wanted to....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I've never used a pinkie pump so I can't personally vouch for their merits but I do know that many herpers have used them with success. I tend to think that if you find something that works you stick with it (nothing like the wisdom of John Candy).

As for whether using a pump makes you a true herper or not I wouldn't worry about that one bit. Doing what it takes to get them to feed makes you a herper, giving up and letting them waste away makes you an ass.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

My helpers:

My philosophy is give them what nature intended them to eat, or a reasonable facsimile (scented; don't have to kill your lizards).
That said, some types of snakes, like baby corns, are supposed to want to eat rodents anyway, so some sort of assisted feeding device may be warranted in those stubborn cases.

In working with L. t. temps I used to be of that school but changed for several reasons. The primary reason was that I came to realize that my snakes were no longer wild creatures subject to the provisions of nature. They were domestic and 99.9% of them were going to go to people who would expect them to feed on domestic lab raised mice and this was something that scenting or feeding lizards did not support. Coastals started in such a way sort of imprint on lizards and prefer them the rest of their lives. Coastals that never see or smell a lizard don't know any better and are, by a long shot, more robust rodent feeders.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I see your point. I am thinking more of breeders getting babies ready for customers, and getting recalcitrant babies onto eating mice by scenting them first and then weaning them onto the standard ft pinky fare most people will be feeding their new snakes. The lizard scent is an emergency option for stubborn ones, but I'd first try just regular live pinks. Dipping the live pink in water seems to help, too.

You know the Irony of all this is I don't have a PP and have gotten most of my corns eating already, lol. By the way I think some populations of Corns do eat lizards natuarlly. The Miami Corns are famous for this even into adulthood. Thanks for your post.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

You don't have a PP pinky pump?

**Yeah I never really had a real problem with the thing but then I used tiny pinks in it**

which is it?

Kerby...
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No I don't have one at the moment or for years actually but I did use one quite a bit a long time ago when they first became popular. Or un-popular, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"Doing what it takes to get them to feed makes you a herper, giving up and letting them waste away makes you an ass"

Well said Tony, that is also how I see it. Whatever it takes to ultimately get one to live then go on to thrive is the ONLY issue here. It doesn't matter one tiny bit which method is used as long as the person pays close attention to what he/she is doing and is very able. "Able" being the key word here to make absolutely certain the snake's safety is first and foremost and it goes on to survive and do well afterwards. It really is as simple as that.

I know people that cannot control a circular saw too, but it certainly doesn't mean circular saws are a horrible thing and that these less qualified people are complete idiots. It just means they cannot use it nearly as well and accurately as other's can.............

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think it hinges on trying. Most of us would be less than honest if we didn't admit that prior to learning how we lost a few animals along the way, I certainly did.

Another thing to remember is that in regards to nature we are much kinder to neonates. In nature very few are recruited into the adult population. The reason you don't see many half grown snakes in the wild isn't because they reach adulthood in a single season, its because most don't survive the first season.

I'm not saying that its OK to be reckless in our attempts to feed stubborn neonates. But you have to recognize that people need to learn and that some level of loss is to be expected and is therefore acceptable.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yes, I have always thought that the very sole reason for snake's producing large clutches of eggs is simply to ensure that "some" will hopefully go on to reach adulthood.

Over the countless eon's, this seems to work a good balance of nature. Everything in nature has a good time-tested way of finding an acceptable equilibrium somehow.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If you think about it on balance each successful snake leaves behind ~ 1 surviving offspring. Less than that and a population sinks into extinction. More and it expands beyond the capability of the system to sustain.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yes, I agree. Over time that is what would realistically happen eventually.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah I never really had a real problem with the thing but then I used tiny pinks in it.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Tony as you may know, I used to keep and breed scarlet kings...quite a few...I'd spend more time talking people OUT of getting them than encouraging them to take them in.
Anyway, it seems the ones who are genuinely interested in doing what is best for the animal to keep it thriving...will do just that..AND succeed.
I'd get correspondence from people, who had taken a baby that I had only just hatched and maybe not fed, and they'd tell me of their methods to get them going.
Some went the way I normally did by scenting pinkie "drumsticks" w/ skink...others used their imagination..
one fella even got his to begin feeding on rodent parts by scenting them with, of all things, chicken soup!
Nowadays I've become even more lazy so I often resort to mouse tails etc. but then IT IS all about ME, ya know.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

yeah the fuzzy tail trick is probably the way to go Mark. Thanks for that advice early on. Maybe I stuck to my guns a bit because people were bashing me so hard about the pinky pump. It's human nature to fight back.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Thanks for your honest answer!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I'd thought about using a pinkie press at one point, and after some experimentation concluded that it was a bad idea.

Problem I had was no matter how much I pureed the pinkies before loading them into the press, there were inevitably bits of bone, skin, etc, that would clog the dosing needle. If enough pressure was applied to clear the obstruction, the remainder of the food would come out all at once with a 'pop'.

Force feeding is indeed stressful enough, and if this occurred while feeding a small hatchling it would either totally freak out the snake, or (potentially) kill it.

And stopping the process to clear the needle would be a pain ...if you could clear it.

I tried the same procedure with a plastic syringe and the largest gauge ball-tip dosing needle I could find. Same problems.

Assist feeding mouse tails is easy (once you develop a system), and consistent. Even the smallest hatchlings seem to fare well with this technique.

I had four baby Scarlet Kings that I assist fed for the first six to eight months (approximately) of their lives. Once they were large enough, I started offering 'regular' food items and had no difficulties with the transition. Two went right on to live pinks, and the other two took f/t anoles the first time offered.

One female of this quartet is currently 'off the feed', and I assist fed her a small f/t anole last night with no issues. Once the lizard was half-way down, she took over and finished it herself. No regurgitation (checked this morning).

In the end, trust your own experience and intuition, if a pinkie press works for you, who am I to say otherwise.

As always, just my $.02

Trevor

I don't really have much to add to the argument "for" or "against." But I will say this. I believe a PP is a last resort, but would use it before I felt a snake was getting to the point beyond saving. I'll keep all options open to me and that hatchling. Regardless how I feel about it, I'd rather have the snake live. And there is that point of starvation/anorexia that a reptile just doesn't normally come back from.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

Another good answer! Yes I don't plan on using one as an assembly line way to feed but I may still consider having one for those real hard cases.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

First off let me say your comment was a refreshing honest answer with out any smack or influence of EGO! Thank You! I can understand your concern with the popping. I have had that happen, though I found that with defrosted pinkies it happened less frequently. I also have the luxury to pick tiny pinks which have not really developed much bone yet since I breed mice. But thanks again. Like I said I haven't used one in probably 20 years. I did use a fuzzy tail and it seemed to work pretty good.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Use wet cat food and a rubber dosing "thingy" cut at an angle attatched to the end of the regular metal "needle".

The cat food will eliminate 99% of the clogs, the angle cut will make it way easier to insert and the rubber "thingy" will eliminate 99% of regurges, when combined with the easy to swallow cat food.

One last thing make sure your cat food has no bone chips. I use Fancy Feast "Beef & Liver Feast" and/or Fancy Feast "Chicken & Liver Feast" because it's very finely ground. Make sure it says "feast" as that's the ground, you don't want chunky style, tidbits, etc.

I also stir a few drops of liquid calcium into the cat food once a month or so. Not sure if it's neccessary but I have raised hatchling for months this way with excellent results.

It's still a delicate operation but this makes it way easier to prevent problems, IMHO. Mostly you will need to just be very careful about not sticking the rubber "thingy" just the right distance down. You want it far enough so they can't easily regurge but you don't want it all they way into their stomach either.
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www.hcu-tx.org/