Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the years you've probably saw my ads for "Blue Moon" line dwarf boas. The original was shipped to me the same week as the 9-11 bombing and he was blue-ghost in appearance with pinkish belly. Bred to a pastel Colombian I got an array of appearances but none like him. Some looked almost like a very pigmented caramel albino, some looked partly blue-gray, and one became blue-melanistic; they went through a post puberty color change and either got brighter, or lost reds! In '04 I got some high red pastel-like female Nics, in '06 one had a litter bred to stripe-tailed het sunset. I got an array of colors and also jungly patterns (one an Aztec-like pattern), one a "smoke hypo" similar to the original Blue Moon only brownish-gray instead of blue-gray and I kept most of those. And in '09 one had a litter bred to Stone line het T snow, and the other a litter from the BM line blue-melano. In both litters I got various appearances as far as degrees of both black and red pigments, and jungly patterns. I also got BM crosses with the same Aztec-like pattern (mother had slight connecting pattern) which I felt might be a codom trait that I call "Mayan" because of similarity to Aztecs (Inca was taken, and these were "mine/my'uns". Last season I paired the best Mayan male(hypo-erythristic "sunburn hypomel'" with super-jungle type markings) to his Aztec-like hypoerythristic sister and to their mother and got an array of colors; aztec-like, jungly, partial stripes and "super-stripe-like" appearances. I paired the "smoke Mayan" male to BM line female and got various degrees of both red and black pigments (some were noticeably blue-gray as neos and are tanning out as they age) and about half were some degree of reverse stripe (dad had slight reverse pattern), and a couple a degree of jungly striping. I bred the BM line blue-melano to sunburn Mayan and got a small litter of 5 with 5 different colors. I bred a Berry het pewter to sunburn Mayan and got a small litter of 5 with all different shades of color---from dark hypo, light hypo, caramelish "smokey", to intense orange red! Both lines (Blue Moon/Mayan) have thrown heavy circle-backs and the Mayans degrees of striping. I don't believe the heavy dorsal striping is a "super Mayan" because I haven't gotten the numbers to confirm it in every litter, I got more in litters where parents were more heavily striped, AND I got a fully striped in the out-bred to het T snow breeding. I don't truly believe that the color (caramel albino appearance) is recessive because I don't think I've got the numbers in each litter (both parents in the brother-sister breeding were sort of T looking and hypo-erythristic, yet I got all colors!) to bear it out, and I got some drastic pigment fluctuation in the outbred litters and crossing the two "Variable Pigment Gene" lines. My belief is that the colors are the result of modifying genes associated with dominant (codom?) gene connecting pattern, in the same way that Aztecs and jungles throw dull offspring as well as bright offspring. Of course there's also the example of the "pink panther gene" that appears to be associated yet separate from the VPI T . Are the various colors attributed to the Hog Island genetics? No doubt to a degree, in some, but the original Nics throw the same variety when bred to anything so it seems. I think this may be the same gene(s) mutation that gave rise to the variety of Central American insular boas, that when each independent variation is successly bred together (or through natural selection) you will end up with the Hog, Corn, Crawl, Caulker, etc., appearances breeding true. I've discussed the possibilities with AZ Morphs because I think mine might be the C. Am. version of their "desert hypo/T ".....or it might not be. My impression of it is that it works more like a "dilute gene" in that those being more T in appearance are generally also hypo-erythristic (think chocolate, cream and white calico dilute cat as opposed to non-dilute black, red and white), but then there's also extra black, and highly red ones??? Am I dealing with multiple recessive, multiple codom, recessive and codom, or what? I would love to hear your opinions (and private email me @ reptixotic@yahoo.com to say what you think they should sell for...I need to move some of them, but most of the best ones [including paradox hypos] I'm keeping). I think when homozygous true T 's, bloods, etc., are here that we will better see the value of variable pigment gene (BM/Mayans). I recently obtained a "smoke" Nic to breed to my "smoke Mayan" to see if it's a new line and further try to eliminate inbreeding.

Thanks for your time,
Chris De Hart
http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/DeHartsAnimalEnterprises/

Sorry... No paragraphs, and quite a few run ons. I did this so I could even follow you.

"Over the years you've probably saw my ads for "Blue Moon" line dwarf boas. The original was shipped to me the same week as the 9-11 bombing and he was blue-ghost in appearance with pinkish belly. Bred to a pastel Colombian I got an array of appearances but none like him. Some looked almost like a very pigmented caramel albino, some looked partly blue-gray, and one became blue-melanistic; they went through a post puberty color change and either got brighter, or lost reds!

In '04 I got some high red pastel-like female Nics, in '06 one had a litter bred to stripe-tailed het sunset. I got an array of colors and also jungly patterns (one an Aztec-like pattern), one a "smoke hypo" similar to the original Blue Moon only brownish-gray instead of blue-gray and I kept most of those.

And in '09 one had a litter bred to Stone line het T snow, and the other a litter from the BM line blue-melano. In both litters I got various appearances as far as degrees of both black and red pigments, and jungly patterns. I also got BM crosses with the same Aztec-like pattern (mother had slight connecting pattern) which I felt might be a codom trait that I call "Mayan" because of similarity to Aztecs (Inca was taken, and these were "mine/my'uns".

Last season I paired the best Mayan male(hypo-erythristic "sunburn hypomel'" with super-jungle type markings) to his Aztec-like hypoerythristic sister and to their mother and got an array of colors; aztec-like, jungly, partial stripes and "super-stripe-like" appearances.

I paired the "smoke Mayan" male to BM line female and got various degrees of both red and black pigments (some were noticeably blue-gray as neos and are tanning out as they age) and about half were some degree of reverse stripe (dad had slight reverse pattern), and a couple a degree of jungly striping.

I bred the BM line blue-melano to sunburn Mayan and got a small litter of 5 with 5 different colors.

I bred a Berry het pewter to sunburn Mayan and got a small litter of 5 with all different shades of color---from dark hypo, light hypo, caramelish "smokey", to intense orange red!

Both lines (Blue Moon/Mayan) have thrown heavy circle-backs and the Mayans degrees of striping. I don't believe the heavy dorsal striping is a "super Mayan" because I haven't gotten the numbers to confirm it in every litter, I got more in litters where parents were more heavily striped, AND I got a fully striped in the out-bred to het T snow breeding.

I don't truly believe that the color (caramel albino appearance) is recessive because I don't think I've got the numbers in each litter (both parents in the brother-sister breeding were sort of T looking and hypo-erythristic, yet I got all colors!) to bear it out, and I got some drastic pigment fluctuation in the outbred litters and crossing the two "Variable Pigment Gene" lines.

My belief is that the colors are the result of modifying genes associated with dominant (codom?) gene connecting pattern, in the same way that Aztecs and jungles throw dull offspring as well as bright offspring. Of course there's also the example of the "pink panther gene" that appears to be associated yet separate from the VPI T .

Are the various colors attributed to the Hog Island genetics? No doubt to a degree, in some, but the original Nics throw the same variety when bred to anything so it seems. I think this may be the same gene(s) mutation that gave rise to the variety of Central American insular boas, that when each independent variation is successly bred together (or through natural selection) you will end up with the Hog, Corn, Crawl, Caulker, etc., appearances breeding true.

I've discussed the possibilities with AZ Morphs because I think mine might be the C. Am. version of their "desert hypo/T ".....or it might not be.

My impression of it is that it works more like a "dilute gene" in that those being more T in appearance are generally also hypo-erythristic (think chocolate, cream and white calico dilute cat as opposed to non-dilute black, red and white), but then there's also extra black, and highly red ones???

Am I dealing with multiple recessive, multiple codom, recessive and codom, or what? I would love to hear your opinions (and private email me @ reptixotic@yahoo.com to say what you think they should sell for...I need to move some of them, but most of the best ones [including paradox hypos] I'm keeping). I think when homozygous true T 's, bloods, etc., are here that we will better see the value of variable pigment gene (BM/Mayans). I recently obtained a "smoke" Nic to breed to my "smoke Mayan" to see if it's a new line and further try to eliminate inbreeding."
-----
Jesse Van Atta

"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

My advise to you is to isolate and prove heritability of each separate trait. Removing anything hypo from the equation will help for starters. Huge varability is NORMAL in boas, and it is very likely that most of what you are working with is just that.

The "smoke" hypo juvie in your photo album is no hypo at all, but rather a variant of a normal produced in a hypo litter.

Giving all the names and assuming they are single gene morphs, is putting the cart before the horse. For the time being, I would call them all De Hart Blue Moon(or insert other colorful name here) "line" boas.

If you want to move some animals, sell them for wholesale fair market value of what they are without the possibility of being something special. Or hold on to them ALL and PROVE IT!

Best of luck.
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Jesse Van Atta

"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

Smokes are not "hypo" in the sense that they are not the same as "salmon hypo" or "orange tail hypo." They are, however, hypomelanistic in that the blacks (and reds) are diluted...I think analogous to chocolate dilutes in mammals. It is not surprising that "dilute type" ontogenetic color changes might occur in C. Am. boas that already possess hormonally controlled night/day color-shifts. While I'm still unable to fully explain the inheritance of the colors and patterns, it is clearly reproducible, as I have the same patterns and colors occurring in multiple litters (even when outbred). Motleys, arabesques, raptors, ...all have muted reds to some degree (even though an occasional specimen might be bright) and in some cases muted blacks (while are arabesque albinos bright almost like sunglows otherwise?). These things all add up to me that it's more likely dom/codom with modifying genes; perhaps the striping is a separate gene from the "VPG." I'm sorry Mr. Van Atta, but you just don't get "caramel albino" (or close mimics) from breeding "normals" (or virtually complete dorsal stripes).

"you just don't get "caramel albino" (or close mimics) from breeding "normals"...."

LOL, actually, I think the VPI line Caramels were produced by a pair of normals. Other than that, I have nothing to add. Good luck!

adding to that, you in theory get everything from breeding two normals.

Lets bring this genetics to people!

I have worked retail in some rough neighborhoods.

I had an elderly african american couple come in one day with thier daughter. They in all appearance were normal human beings but, apparently I forgot to look at aberrant patterning/lighter colored eyes/ freckling on them because they had an albino daughter.

Sorry to take this off track but, can there be something with these snakes sure, rule of thumb prove the genetic trait before you call it anything. Unless it is obviously something different.

Sorry DeHart , but I couldn't even read your thread the way that it was posted .
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Snake room janitor

I tried to keep reading but all of the "name dropping" made my head spin.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Without a doubt this has to be one of the most poorly constructed posts I have seen in a long long time. Like Jonathan, I am getting ill by all the name dropping (jungly this, Aztec that). How about reforming your post, add in pictures to explain exactly what you think each is, and go from there.

Now, here is my take on this "project". I think it was killed from the day you posted your first adds on the classifeds. It was just like this post. Jungly, aztec like, inca this, motley that. The pictures associated with those adds were terrible. What I see in your photos is the simply variation observed in Central American lines, especially when crossed into Hog/Colombian crosses, Colombians,and El Salvadors. Its also possible your original male has some Bcc blood or even Bcl blood in it based on its look. Once you put all of these into the pot, you get funky colors and patterns. The heavy circle back, chain link and striping are all traits that are commonly observed in Centrals and El Salvadors. I will search for some pictures to show this and post later. For example, my last litter of poss het bloods had animals 50% dorsal striping, some with chain link striping in the tail, and others with Circle backs. My last litter of hypo nicaraguans had tail striping. A litter of Centrals had square tails. Its all simple variation we see. I also see dramatic color differences, again I will search for photos of within litter variation that show this.

All in all, if you really think you have something here, take each trait (it seems like you think you have about 10), and isolate it. Bred it back to parental strain animals, to normals, and to siblings to determine its mode of inheritence. And please, one last thing, give it your own name, and not the jungly, inca like, aztec, blah blah blah. I see no animals in your litters that look anything like these. I see striped tails and chain link tails.

Good luck with your project(s).
Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I apologize for any grammatical errors, but I was unaware that grammar had such a great influence on whether something was a potential new morph, or what kind of morph it is. This is not a "personal letter" and thus as a scientific/business letter of sorts does not require the same use of paragraphs as if it were. One argument of being "variations of normal" is not the most effective way to convince me of anything, since albinos, T 's, hypo's, etc., are all "variations" of normal, otherwise, logically, they would in fact be "normal." As for "name dropping" it is for the purpose of showing certain similarities to other known morphs and clearly not to imply that they are the same (thus showing commonalities to dom/codom traits implying this being possibly dom/codom itself). The exception being "desert hypo/T "....there is a great deal of similarity, and if not the same morph, it is almost certainly the same type of morph. I have shown that full stripes occur in the Mayan line no matter what you breed to, also that the hypo-erythristics occur in both lines (as do heavy circle-backs) no matter whether inbred or outbred. The hypos produced have exceptionally light color for being mostly Nic blood( better than most super hypos in most lines). I think it's clear that something is going on other than these being completely "normal variations." Show me that you consistently produce complete stripes, hypoerythrism, etc., in your Central Americans if this is so normal.

As a scientist who has published quite a few papers, I can confirm that being grammatically correct is extremely important. It is a way of getting our opinion, results, and hypotheses across clearly and convincingly.

In regards to my comment of being variations of normals, I relate to wild type in that case. I would certainly not consider an albino a variation of a normal. I would consider it a proven simple recessive mutation from wild type. Now, if we are discussing Sharps, Kahl’s, Gillams, then in that case I would call them variations of albinos. I see your animals, possible as a result of the poor photography (not disregard there, many of us suffer from a lack of skill when it comes to that area), as variations of the wild type phenotype. i.e. not relating to a simply recessive or incomplete dominant trait. If anything, your “color” phase produced here may act similar to pastel, i.e. additive or polygenic. The striping, chain link, etc, is a common trait observed in Central American boas. Look at all of the completely striped blood boas, salmons, etc.

Here are some examples of the various traits you mention:

Circle back (and in this case ladder tail also) Central American from Het T+ Nicaraguan male to a pastel laddertail Nicaraguan female:

Circle back (with Chain linked tail – though not that visable here) Het Blood boas – El Salvador:

Circle back het blood female (sibling to above) with dorsal saddle connections and different ground color:

Striped het blood male (sibling to above) with dorsally connected saddles:

Tail striped Sonoran Boa

I will get more pictures of my chain link boas, etc later this evening for you.

I am not trying to discount your animals, however I think you are potentially over emphasizing the novelty of these. As I said earlier, isolate the traits, prove them reproducible, and your problem will not be having difficulty selling them, it will be the difficulty keeping them.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I'm not so sure that it's a very uncommon gene(s) in Centrals. But you've still not shown me an example lacking black. some have little or no black on the body and that's in some cases a washed out faded color (which in hypo-Mayans can be completely relaced by chocolatey gray); also you have failed to show that there are any that "normally" mimic the Colombian "IMG." In the wild, there are long-taileds that are both hypo-ery' and IMG...which is why I stated that possibly this gene(s) was the root cause of diverse insular/mainland isolated appearances. "Variation" is a broad term. We accept that there is similar variation among Amazon tree boas and that particular appearances can be made more predictable through selected breeding, and that certain "color morphs" are worth more. Why do Bci people have a problem believing this could not be the case here? Or that "dilute genes" could possibly occur? Etc.,? If this were a scientific paper I would have been presenting info' in a more professional manner...this is basically a commercial site with informal interactions. If you want to post professional posting guidelines and everyone else adhere to the rules then so will I. I saw no such rule that "informal postings" were against TOS.

The point that you are missing , is that you need to prove it.

I understand selective breeding in Amazons more than many people. I have bred amazons through at least 4 generations in an effort to select for solid colors that will repeatedly produce solid colored patternless animals. Did I succeed. No. The fixation of polygenic traits is extremely difficult, time consuming, and frought with issues.

Could you please post good quality pictures of the animals you have representing each specific trait. This will allow us to evaluate the qualities of each "morph" or line.

As far as guidelines go, I simply commented on your statement that in scientific writing you do not need grammar. That is completely incorrect.

Oh, by the way, I am a geneticist and understand very well how dilute genes work.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>>We accept that there is similar variation among Amazon tree boas and that particular appearances can be made more predictable through selected breeding, and that certain "color morphs" are worth more.

Sorry but I had to step in here as someone that is into Amazon Tree Boas. Amazons are variable, they are all normal, you cannot get predictible colors through selected breeding, not with any real or predictable regularity. Believe me, there are those of us working on it and a registry was started to track lineages and breedings to TRY to prove some sort of genetic inheritability but it's basically a crap shoot. They are just so variable. This last year two reds bred, had mostly red babies and a garden. So is 'garden' a morph? no, it's just part of their normal variation. At this time there are only two proven morphs that are widely accepted, all the rest, the pieds, calicos, 'hypos' are just normal variations. Breeding two colored amazons does not guarantee a fully colored litter or even what color they will be.

Boas are incredibly variable as well. I see people in the BP world every little color change or connected saddle or pin line is a new morph and it proves out for them! Boas, not so much.. their patterns and colors are so variable and random. In one litter there can be boas light gray, light brown, reduced black, no speckles then others that are highly contrast with lots of black, pink, white and no gray with tons of speckles. In CA boas the circle back/ladder tail traits are common as well as variation between brown/tan and the gray/blue background colors.

I am NOT trying to say that you don't have anything or stumbled onto something new - Maybe you do! But I'd like to see more proof, I couldn't follow your post too well, it got confusing with all the names... it would help if you could post direct breeding results with pics, like:
mayan x normal =
mayan x mayan =
mayan mother x mayan son =
mayan sister x mayan brother =
normal appearing sibling x normal =
F2 x F2 =
etc, etc, it takes a few generations to truly prove something out.

Something new is always exciting but please understand people are going to need to see proof to accept it and throwing a bunch of names around, especially names already assocaited with existing proven morphs is just casuing confusion. You seem very excited about your projects and that is great. Good luck!

So, that's just my $0.02, maybe $0.04.
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

You have several highly variable C.A Boas mixed with Hypo Hog (Which is already a Colombian/hypo- Hog Island cross )creating a huge Mixed up mess !

You have a bunch of Highly variable Mutts !

You have to pin down each single trait before you decide to
name it as a a genetic anomaly.

The most you might have in my opinion is an aberrant line of Boas.,

I can't see any true color traits just variable colored Boas ,
the same that happens in any litter.

Although in this case that variability is magnified because of
so many different phenotypical Boa types involved
from all of the mixed up breeding's.

Stop adding different Boa Phenotypes to the equation. Don't out
cross using such diverse Boa types

Pick one Boa type and use it.

Pin one or two or each trait down and show that those single
traits can be reproduced over and over again.

Then people will agree you have something.

Although . . . . . . . .

Until you can pin down a single trait and show that it reproduces itself in a
genetic way ( Recessive, Dominant , Codominant , Incomplete Dominant)
until that time you are just running around in circles.

. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

A constructive criticism, and not just criticism; I can deal with that.

The original Mayan producing boas were to my knowledge high-colored pure Nics...no Hog or other blood. They have thrown the same variability in pigment saturation in litters fathered by het sunset, Nic X Cancun het T and Blue Moon line (Central X Colombian) that were totally unrelated. Yes, I wish I had only used pure Nics, but I never expected these results. I never expected the colors to be the primary new thing that cropped up in the successive breedings. I was expecting pattern mutation/morph because of the heavy pattern in the first litters. When Mayan to mayan breedings occurred the "super-stripe"-type striping cropped up as well as the extreme diversity of pigmentation. Mayans tend to have jungle-like connected pattern, flattened "points" on dorsal pattern, light colored eyes, reduced head patterns, etc. Not just the plain tail stripe common to Central Americans. I've had boa constrictors off and on (mostly "on" since I was in the 3rd grade and I'm almost 45 years old, and I may not be a geneticist, but I know when a boa is not entirely "normal."

In your first post? Was it to generate interest in your boas, and or possibly a sale? Was it to have a discussion about the posibility of having something genetic?

In the end you asked for opinions pm'ed to you on what others thought they are worth because you need to move them.

You seem to think we are trying to prove you wrong. On the contrary, we are trying to make you understand that the burden of proof is on you, and is a hard row to hoe.

To bring your boas to market without full proof, and calling them something genetic(naming, comparing to others), even though YOU know they are balls to bones, is disrespecting those before you that have put in the real effort.

Put the effort into it. Come back with a well thought out presentation providing proof of what you have with pics and proper grammar. You will be commended instead of criticised.

And most of the criticism in this thread has been constructive.

Just depends on your perspective.... Or agenda.
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Jesse Van Atta

"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

>>In your first post? Was it to generate interest in your boas, and or possibly a sale? Was it to have a discussion about the posibility of having something genetic?
>>
>>In the end you asked for opinions pm'ed to you on what others thought they are worth because you need to move them.
>>
>>You seem to think we are trying to prove you wrong. On the contrary, we are trying to make you understand that the burden of proof is on you, and is a hard row to hoe.
>>
>>To bring your boas to market without full proof, and calling them something genetic(naming, comparing to others), even though YOU know they are balls to bones, is disrespecting those before you that have put in the real effort.
>>
>>Put the effort into it. Come back with a well thought out presentation providing proof of what you have with pics and proper grammar. You will be commended instead of criticised.
>>
>>And most of the criticism in this thread has been constructive.
>>
>>Just depends on your perspective.... Or agenda.
>>-----
>>Jesse Van Atta
>>
>>"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

I had a genuine interest to see if anyone else has been producing anything similar (even in other species), and hear their interpretation of the genetics. I have saw ads, recently and in the past few years as well, that appear to be extremely similar if not the same...I will not be "name dropping" on these so as not to tick people off, but I've saw them offerred for a few hundred dollars each up to several thousand dollars each, and that's as "unproven" morphs. (And, that's been some people who've been in the boa business awhile, as well.) I had a genuine interest in getting people's opinions on fair pricing, based on the fact that having produced virtually identical results in several litters whether outbred, or inbred, that these are a "morph." Whether dominant, codominant, recessive, polygenic, it does appear to be quite reproducible. As far as "proving" a morph before marketing...well I seem to recall virtually every reseller offering "het hypomelanistics," on their lists a few years ago; and possible codom (insert Roswell-like morphs here) this and that more recently. exactly when were Leopards proven recessive (I still see people who think "visible hets" are the only hets)? Anyway, I don't see the point in holding back every offspring and spending thousands on feeding them all for three years when I already know it's a morph. Nobody else spoke up and said they produced animals lacking black as normal variation of Central americans; nobody else spoke up and said they commonly throw significant numbers of hypo-erythristic offspring in central American. the people that do throw the extremely striped babies do not sell them as "normals" in ads I've saw; in fact, I've saw them asking into the thousands of dollars each! Now I know why more people don't use these forums. People may attack my spelling, grammar, photographic skills, etc., all they want, but very, very few people followed the simple directions to answer the simple questions asked in my original post, and NOT ONE bothered to private message. I do appreciate the fact that proving the genetics is a priority, and I will focus somewhat on doing so. I've already spent several years on this project. In the past I had not focused on it until I saw that it was reproducible. Unfortunately, I don't see the point in continuing posting on the forum, since people fail to follow simple instructions and have nothing to add as far as genetic information, or personal experience with anything similar (even though I keep seeing ads, etc.). In short, I've gained nothing from posting on here. Thanks to those who have viewed and given opinions, etc.

> but I've saw them offerred for a few hundred dollars each up to several thousand dollars each, and that's as "unproven" morphs.

Yes, but do they actually sell for those prices? People can offer up all the unproven morphs they want and ask whatever they want, but does that mean people are always going to take the chance and get them? I've often seen lesser-known/unproven morphs being ridiculed for being offered up with no proof (which is of course what you are seeing some of now in the replys to your posts).

> the people that do throw the extremely striped babies do not sell them as "normals" in ads I've saw; in fact, I've saw them asking into the thousands of dollars each!

well then, here you go, you have an idea of pricing you can ask.

> Nobody else spoke up and said they produced animals lacking black as normal variation of Central americans; nobody else spoke up and said they commonly throw significant numbers of hypo-erythristic offspring in central American.

Actually I thought some people did, Dr Booth and Larry said they had reproduced some of those same traits. I don't work with central american boas or other BCi crosses (except salmon boas) so I had nothing to add about this part of your post.

> Unfortunately, I don't see the point in continuing posting on the forum, since people fail to follow simple instructions and have nothing to add as far as genetic information, or personal experience with anything similar

well then I guess my response is completely useless to you. It is a public forum and people can share opinions and actually I thought it was a very intresting general discussion. Sorry you took people's opinions so personally. Yes, you are right, no one gave you pricing, I actually thought we were supposed to discuss that on the forums, maybe I am incorrect. Wouldn't be the first time!

take care, try to lighten up and have some fun. enjoy your boas and good luck with your projects!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

>> I actually thought we were supposed to discuss that on the forums, maybe I am incorrect.

should have read:

I actually thought we were NOT supposed to discuss pricing on the forums.

time for coffee!

Pricing, here goes, but without actual pictures of each "morph" you have, its difficult.

Striped offspring - $100 to $350 depending on the size of the stripe.

Mayan - Don't know what it is so we can't price it.

Hypopigemented - Well, hypo nics go for about $100 to $150, so given that it is unproven, probably $80 to $100.

Blue moon - Probably $150 to $200 depending on the trait expression. If it was proven heritable, then maybe a bit more.

I don't see any of these being a line of T . Even if they were they are not a $5000 animal. If it was proven T , then $2500 max.

Hows that for pricing. Now how about following up an earlier question I asked, how about good quality pictures of each trait/morph, whatever. Good quality pictures would also help with you advertising.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Firstly, I had asked that people private email me to discuss opinions on pricing, mostly so as not to tick others off who may be producing something similar. I'm not going to post more pics only to have them criticized; I'm no photographer and I know that. As to appearances, I've described them in fair detail, but was then accused of "name dropping" by pointing out similarities to known/proven morphs. The "Mayan" line was thought to be more a pattern morph since they threw variable connecting pattern with some being "Aztec-like." The "Blue Moon" line originated from a "blue ghost" in appearance (like the Mayan Smoke male only blue-gray instead of brown-gray). Both lines produce some offspring that are hypo-like---like a really really good pastel in tone; and, both lines produce hypoerythristic offspring that do not seem to be the same as type-1 or type-2 anerythristic. Both lines can throw circle-backs with heavy patterning. Myself, I feel it more likely that this is a dilute gene with modifying genes and when an animal gets the hypomel-ish and hypoery' genes on one animal then it appears to look somewhat caramel albino-like. I've produced these traits in multiple litters, and yes, there is normal variation in color in every litter which adds to trouble discerning exactly what is going on with them to some degree. As to your estimates of price, in the common hypomels that may be a fair estimate; in my experience/interpretation with my offspring the two types of hypomel give a double-dose of hypo-ness and are thus not the same thing. I know of nobody else (except one with Colombians) that is producing hypoerythristics. And as I recall, not one of the other T morphs actually hit the market as cheaply as you imply a T should. I am open to more opinions and honestly would like to hear what others think. There's only a few of what I call "DAE-Ghosts" and not alot of "DAE-Glows" so it will not bother me tremendously to hold most of them back if I don't get what I think they are worth. Since they don't have their adult coloration until about a year and a half old anyway, I'm really curious to see how most of them turn out.