Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Could anyone please post some pics of intergrades in comparison to florida kings? Thanks

I havent found much on the intergrades through searching.

When I think of intergrade Florida Kings I think of the North Floridana that look like they have Chain King influence. What kind do you have in mind?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Florida kings run a lot darker than the ones in the pictures I'm posting here, I just don't have any like that uploaded right now. Light VS dark is not the difference between intergrades and pure Florida kings.

Florida KingS:

Intergrades:

Dude I know I've said it before but the animal in the third from the bottom picture is THE sharpest looking king of the eastern complex I've ever seen! have you have any luck breeding him her into the sulfur line from the same general local yet?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

That particular snake is a male from Pinellas County. I'm sure something really cool would come out of it, but for now I haven't really had good enough success with the Hillsborough Sulfur or the Pinellas line to seriously consider crossing them. Maybe in a couple years, but for now I'm going to concentrate on producing good "pure" examples of these lines.

"but for now I'm going to concentrate on producing good "pure" examples of these lines"

Good for you Nick!,....as you well know, those are VERY special natural intergrade snakes that there needs to be more of in the hobby to enjoy, and kept in their true form for a good while.

Great decision bro!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I was of the understanding that they were from the same local. In any case I'd like to see more sulfer "Florida" kings. The hypo brooks and lavener crosses don't do it for me.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Hi Foxturtle. I am familiar with the "old school" eastern getula designations/phenotypical expressions like eastern, florida, brooksi, and even appalachicola. All were fairly distinct a decade or so ago, at least the ones I saw advertised at shows, etc. I look at some of the pics your posted (all very cool by the way) and am very confused. What discriminating factors are you using to classify animals as integrade or pure? Are you basing your integrade designations off locality info? I am getting more into the eastern clan of getula lately and have a pair of "appalachicola" juvies and a big male eastern. I have always had a holbrooki or two in the collection over the years as well. I am looking to pair up the eastern and maybe get some floridana down the road. This clan is really becoming confusing a bit LOL!!

I base the intergrade status on range, and on the variation in appearance at the particular locality. I caught all the intergrades pictured from 3 locales and have seen (if not caught) multiple other kings from those same locales.

And actually, based on appearance, only the last intergrade pictured looks like a pure Florida king. The others either have lighter coloration with too few bands to be a Florida king, or dark coloration with too many bands to be a pure Eastern king, but too few bands to be a Florida king.

That last snake, though dark, looks like many of the kings found around Lake Okeechobee, which are all considered to be pure Florida kings.

Thanks FoxTurtle. So basically you are using range and meristics to separate these animals out. Based on your reply can it also be taken that phenotypically "pure" specimens can be found together in certain localities alongside the integrade species? It seems to me that the integrade issue is more prevalent with the eastern kings and floridana/brooksi in the southeast more than anywhere else. Probably with nigra to the north?

Intergrade populations can have specimens that are phenotypically identical to one subspecies or the other, or have a mix of characteristics. This is why it is useful to see multiple specimens from a particular population.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "intergrade issue".

So, if you were in a range area where you know subspecies A and B overlap, do you consider the ones that look phenotypically like A to actually be A, and the ones that look phenotypically B to be B and the mixes being classified as the integrades??

As far as the "integrade issue", I meant I am not all that familiar with wild types above and beyond holbrooki, and it appears IMO that the eastern clan has MANY MORE locality varieties or integrades than say holbrooki, splendida, or californiae. Of course, I am probably way off on this as I am sure many will state LOL!!

I guess the point I am trying to resolve is are we preserving actual subspecies in captivitiy, or just locality "varieties", and do "integrades" really exist????? Like with the phases of cornsnakes, can I bred eastern clan kings like my appalachicola female to my eastern male (as an example, not saying it would look like anything in particular)to produce a snake that looks like Pinellas Co. locality and call it a Pinellas Co. "morph" of eastern king??

In the case of these kings I would consider all types from the intergrade zone to be intergrades, regardless of whether they are a perfect match for subspecies A or subspecies B. They are all of the same genetics and interbreed freely, so I would make no differentiation.

There are other areas, like Southeast Arizona, that have a lot of different looking intergrade kings. Maybe the eastern clan intergrades stand out more. A lot of intergrades in general are just "blah" looking.

Pinellas County means locale with kingsnakes, and shouldn't ever become a general term like Miami Phase or Okeetee have become for corn snakes. One could more easily produce a nice looking snake by cross-breeding an Eastern King and a Florida King (and people have), but that isn't the point. A locality intergrade has had many generations since the two subspecies contacted and interbred to evolve its own look. The allure is that you're getting a natural morph rather than a man made cross.

"The allure is that you're getting a natural morph rather than a man made cross"

That's exactly the way I see it too. Anybody can cross stuff in a plastic tub, but when nature produces something special like an awesome looking "Osceola-Suwanne" king, that IS what makes it special to many.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

here's a intergrade..um..intergrade..if you will.
His daddy was from Tampa (Hillsborough county) and his mom from St.Pete (Pinellas county).
Seperated by Tampa Bay, the kings often look remarkably different.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

here's an old pic of mom...St.Pete peninsula intergrade king...

and dad from Tampa

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

heres some homemade ones
mother

father

babies




babies look like easterns in the pic but many have already lightened w/slight speckling after just a few sheds. ill get some current pics up soon, these hatched back in july.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Here's my male from Citrus Co. FL.

Most I've seen from the area are darker like Nick's example, and lacking the lightened scales between the bands. Central FL is an interesting area for kings if you like variety, and you can find them.