Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As you all know, most breeders name their color mutations after the color they represent best. Except for the ball python guys and a few hognose morphs, in which case, they went with a type of food..

Well, there is a problem with the color wheel attempt here in the hognose world, because a certain breeder feels that he owns the rights to several of our most common colors used world wide.
So, in order to avoid any confrontation, or confusion, I would like to come up with some universal terms that the rest of us could use to describe the morphs we are selling. These are common colors used around the world,,, every day!! It shouldn't matter if we all use them to describe the look of our offspring, right?? If you want to keep them traceable back to you, simply attach your name to the front of it.

The two main colors in question are red and purple.
For purple, I have been thinking that crimson, brick red and maroon best describe the look. Or, perhaps we could go the food route and go with plum.

Here are a few example of animals I feel would fall under this category.

Adult female. Dark maroon saddles and lateral blotches without a hint of black anywhere except the belly.

Just after it's first shed. She is getting darker every month.

Just after its first shed. Very dark maroon saddles and lateral blotches without a hint of black anywhere except the belly.

As far as red goes,, well its a primary color. So we are only left with food items, sports cars and firetrucks. LOL.
What does everyone think??

-Jon

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Ultimate Hognose

Well, there is a problem with the color wheel attempt here in the hognose world, because a certain breeder feels that he owns the rights to several of our most common colors used world wide.

I too have seen the recent ad and had a good laugh at it!

Here's my thought on this, why cater to someone who is throwing a tempter tantrum? By coming up with different names to simply identify the same color and/or pattern, we are only confusing the market even this much more. It's the same with the Hypo/Tpos and Anerythristic/Axanthic as these can be a bit more subjective since they are actual genetic terms that we (at this time) have no real means to securely identify. Every time we create different terms to identify the same characteristic will only confuse and hurt our market and credibility IMHO. I can just see someone new getting into hognose that gets a "purple" and then decides to get a "maroon" and try to create a different color by mixing the two. The same goes for the other problematic names too. While it might sound trivial to those of us who know that some of these different names refer to the same type of animal, others might not be so savvy and end up misrepresenting what they are working with.

My suggestion is this, keep using the already used common terms. Who cares if said individual has an inferiority complex and wants to believe that they dominate and control every aspect of the hognose market? After all, the majority of us pretty much know the history of who's produced and created specific animals regardless of who is producing and selling them now.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Excellent topic.

My opinion is that animals sold need to be represented to the best of your knowledge. If it is red call it red. If it is not red but comes from a red line, disclose that when you sell. Who did you get it from? Who did they get it from, etc. It doesn't hurt to show pics of the parents or sibs as well.
Hognose genetics are extremely variable. Some reds fade with age while others intensify. Some have a pink look while others have a purple look.
Another consideration to make is that pictures may do some injustice to an animals true color. Unfortunately reds, purples, greens, oranges, and yellows are diluted under camera flashes or some lights. Snakes need to be compared with their photograph for accurate representation.

You should be able to call a line, a trait, a selected animal whatever you want, but you need to clarify what it is. Is it a proven morph or an unproven. It takes time to figure out whether an oddity(color or pattern) is an random anomaly or an inheritable one. If you sell it, say what it is.

As far as coining a certain color or pattern yours, I don't know that it can truly be done. You can say that you selectively bred a snake, a line, etc, but every line or morph or snake came from the wild originally. That being said, another could pop up elsewhere.
I have had the awesome privilege over the last ten or so years to see thousands of hognoses both CB and WC from the collection of Richard Evans, formerly of West Texas Reptiles.
He was the first to selectively breed certain traits that we enjoy today in the hognose world. Consider that the first orange albino was a wild-collected adult male. The first pink pastel was a WC subadult male. The second pink pastel was collected in the wild as a juvenile. The first jungle, Tpos, & melanistic were captive born to WC gravid females. While Richard was the first to breed them in captivity, he by no means created them.
Others often coined their aberrant hognoses jungles. They just clarified that they hatched them from their lines and not Evans' line.
So to clarify, Say "Evans' jungle" or "Tims jungle" or "sara's jungle",etc

We are fortunate enough in the hognose world to have Ball python, boa, leos, and corn morphs to kind of show us the way.
Multiple-line same genetic morphs are classified by persons name, business name, or descriptive name.

Caramel BP: Nerd line or bell line or caramel
albino leos: rainwater or tremper
albino boa: Sharp or Kahl
Het lucy BP: het russo or lesser or butter or mojave
Cinder corn: Z or ashy

So to sum it up, call it what you will, but clarify.

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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes

www.spiderhognose.com

http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/index.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Good topic,it seams to me that some breeders are so hooked on trying to make a simple line trait sound like a big new thing, Reds and greens have been produced for years ,some better then others,but the simple fact is that all these colors have been produce at one time or another through line breeding. I have a reds from every breeder out there and if you put them all in one tub it's hard to tell them apart,and I mean every breeder.

JMO
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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

Definitely not just your opinion Brent, a lot of us feel the same as you ;O)
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Chris & Alliey
Giantkeeper Reptiles Website
Giantkeeper Reptiles Blog
E-mail Us

I think you guys are right, thanks for the input. What if someone produced a genetic striped Hognose? They would call it a striped Hognose, because there is really no other way to describe a stripe, right? Well, if someone else produced a completely unrelated striped animal, should he have to come up with another word to describe a stripe? I don't think so. They would simply add their name in front of stripe. Same goes with every other morph out there. If someone caught another axanthic/anerythristc kennerlyi, I wouldn't get upset if that's what they called it. Because that's what it is. We would just want to keep it straight as to which line was which in case they proved to be incompatible.

Jon
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Ultimate Hognose

I also agree with you all, naming my hogs'Lavenders' does not say anything about it's genetics...whatever the heck it is. When I first saw it I thought it reminded me of a Lavender corn..and so the name
stuck so far. Also it seems all pics of one animal look different
[as you know J.R.] It really is funny though...but some can take the issue to seriously.
David Turcotte

Hi Jon. Yours is an easy solution to the problem, and I agree with you. If I was describing your large hognose, I'd probably say it is maroon with burgundy highlights. I do like the name of the breeder too, just so I may have a better idea of the genetics behind the hognose. I'm not sure some breeders appreciate us using their names, especially if it is for sales purposes. But you can always divulge that information privately.

I wish there was a universally available morph chart for hognose, or at least a standard color chart. Photos don't always show hognose colors to good advantage, but I'll sometimes put the hoggie next to a standard paint set, to show the colors are true, and not enhanced with software.

Wendell

I'll sometimes put the hoggie next to a standard paint set, to show the colors are true, and not enhanced with software.

You know Wendell, that's an ingenious method. I know I will be adopting that color swatch method for animals that I plan on selling so that there is no question of integrity. Simply brilliant!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy, I bought a hognose a couple years ago, and when I got him his colors were nowhere close to the picture I had seen. I actually had to go back and look at the pattern in the picture to make sure I got the correct hognose. That seller was a genius at rendering colors. I took a picture of the hoggie and tried to duplicate what he did using a paint program, but I couldn't do it. I didn't complain, as the female that came with him was far nicer than her picture. LOL.

Wendell

At least it evened out for you in the end. After all, how many of us have been duped or mislead, whether by accident or intentionally, of the colors of the animals we get? Far too many I fear. But like you also stated "Photos don't always show ... colors to good advantage" which is a very true statement as well. I know that most people have a hard time with the different types of lighting and the quality of their camera and skills to capture the actual colors of the animals they are trying to represent, unfortunately I think that some unscrupulous sellers also use crappy camera phones as part of their deception as a defense excuse. Either way, using a color swatch not only protects the seller but also helps the buyer at making a more informed purchasing decision. I hope this becomes a mainstay in the marketplace.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

We encounter this everywhere in the hobby. Back when pastel ball pythons were worth a small fortune...people were pushing light normals as pastels, or even doctoring up the photos a bit. Currently, lots of folks are selling normal BCI as "pastels", or playing with their photos to make what they are selling more appealing. I am all for calling something "red" or "green" but people sometimes label things incorrectly, and it's a shame. reds and greens have been around for a long time, but the price should match the quality of colour and pattern and the buyer should always be made aware when something is a "morph" or a "trait". Know the difference.