Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry if anyone thinks this is off topic, but I think it shows the power of selective breeding! This also applies to the snakes we breed in many ways.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Very interesting! I used to have a small herd of Jersey cows, another breed developed by selective breeding, although there was no "defective" gene involved. Selective breeding is an old reliable technique, although now with genome science contributing as well, who knows what will be created in the future.

Too bad the Nazis gave this a bad rap (eugenics)concerning humans. We could breed out bad teeth, cancer, poor eyesight, just to name a few flaws...(can I go back and choose my parents? LOL!)

Some types of snakes, such as knoblochis, tend to have spinal kinks due to originating from a small gene pool. I plan on breeding only the best to the best, and not use runts or poor feeders no matter how pretty.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

You mentioned poor feeders. That is something I have always believed. That if we selected breeding stock for these other good traits like prefering Pinks as hatchlings, and good egg production and so on, as well as good looks we could get a better strain of snakes. I remember someone posting a clutch of Thayeri that had a large percentage of the babies take pinks right away. I bet choosing from stock like that would reproduce the same results in the future generations. I know I've said all this before, just very interesting to think about.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>> I remember someone posting a clutch of Thayeri that had a large percentage of the babies take pinks right away. I bet choosing from stock like that would reproduce the same results in the future generations. I know I've said all this before, just very interesting to think about.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
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>> J Sierra

The Only problem with these Thayeri that took pinks right away are, if you can't get rid of them right away, they eat you out of house and home. LOL, LOL.
I'm going to have to order another 1000 pinks to keep them all happy.LOL
Bob Bichler
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I bet a lot of Thayeri breeders wish they had that problem, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

There is a problem with your theory. First, you blame X on inbreeding, yet, you have not actually identified that as the problem.

PTP is always first, Proper troubleshooting procedure, That is, healthy adults produce healthy babies. This was explained to me in the early seventies by Ernie Wagner.

Its very easy to blame inbreeding, but in YOUR case, is that the problem???? In most cases, its not genetics. The easy out is, of course it "could" be.

As an advisor, I would say, there is not much you can do about genetics, but there is a lot you can do about your husbandry.

The key is, most believe in a method. that is, if I do that, this will happen. That is a very false belief. Each situation is different, each animal is different, and you think a recipe will work. Well the recipes do work, only in a minimum way. That is, you will have strong individuals and weak ones. If you tweek your husbandry, you can adjust that and obtain Strong individuals within the system.

Not being set on a stinking recipe, my life has been, all about fixing other peoples BROKEN snakes. Cheers

I'm not sure what you thought I was implying but this was not about my snake,lol. It was just a thought about selective breeding and how extreme the results can be. You say I have a recipe, yet you stick to your recipe of husbandry techniques. I still say the minute you take an animal from the wild and bring it in your house it becomes a compromise. How much are we willing to simulate the animals natural needs, and how much is the animal able to adjust to our inabilities to meet those needs because of restrictions whatever those may be. I just found a baby Cornsnake last week, which was obviously a fresh hatchling. This hatchling had spinal kinks! I produced nearly a hundred none with kinks. So are we to conclude my methods are better than natures? There are so many variables to this game that no person can know them all. Yet one thing is certain, attributes are definately passed down to offspring. Cheers.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

i replied as you posted, its not actually about you, or your snakes. its more about the system, or better yet, the lack of a decent system.

You see, I started breeding colubrids in 1964, and have done so since then. This gives me a perspective that most here do not have. That is, This problem you talk about what common then, you know, lizard feeders, weak babies, etc. Only there is a huge difference, we had no inbreeding.

I was one of the first to produce montane kings, alterna, pyros, etc in number. So I had to address the problem of picky neonates. With support, I did not have problems with picky feeders.

Once we figured out the problem, the cure was effective. If kept in proper conditions, baby kings will indeed eat your fingers, muchless pinkies. This is true in nature or captivity. If for some reason they ACT differently in captivity. Its often and easy to blame the snakes. Which I find very funny.

The problem is, we do not offer the conditions SUCCESSFUL SNAKES in nature utilize. Of course nature supports everything from instant death, to dehydration, straving, etc. In fact, those nasty things are the product of successful conditions. You see if a population is stable and has great conditions, it produces excess animals. These individuals do two base things, one they overpopulate that population depleting the resources, or two, they become transients and wander looking for other supportive areas. Most of these perish very quickly.

Nature does not maintain, 1.2. Its always moving from supportive conditions, to drought, to overpopulation. In otherwords, wild populations are always changing.

You can locate saturated populations that have very little need to recruit, these are filled with large adults to the carrying capacity of the habitat. Their is little excess prey etc.

These are generally old populations, Then you have new progressing populations. Thats the old population that has had its habitat modified, like fires, drought, floods, etc. That reduces the population, then good conditions that produce excess amounts of prey(bloom) which allows the reduced populations to EXPAND and use the upper limits of their reproductive potential.

What I find funny is, there is always a context to any anology. If you find a sick wild snake, you try to compare it to your healthy captive snake, or vise versa.

I would think in captivity we normally try to duplicate a blooming wild population and we should use that to compare our results to. Not a dying old static wild population. or a DOR. hahahahahahahahahaha

Enough of that. The point is, if you want to be lazy and blame results on something you cannot control, good on you, your allowed to. But why blame the snakes????? or genetics. Of course, it could be genetics. But genetics is not a trashcan you can throw anything you do not understand into. In fact, you have no proof genetics is the case in any of these cases. In fact, poor feeding responce is directly related to poor conditions, that is a known fact.

Common sense tells me that if you have healthy adults, and those had healthy parents, then why on earth are you blaming the your failures on genetics? If you picked kinked up adults and bred them, then you get what you deserve.

Back to the begining, What your talking about, was and is a problem since before inbreeding. Its a real result of weak husbandry.

And please, do not get mad, any and all husbandry protocals can be applied right or wrong. Strong or weak, consistant or inconsistant. All have an effect on the neonates.

You miss a few feedings at the right time, or not quite the right incubating temps or nearly good humidity can all cause weak babies.

I do find so much amusing. Like how you guys talk about this king is different then that king, and so forth and so on. Yet, you keep them the same and feed them the same, etc. And expect the same results from different snakes. Worse yet, you pay no attention to individuals. You see, its natures design to have different individuals in all populations. That is, they require the same things but acquire them differently. This insures that some survive. Its called something like behavioral flexibility.

So its as likely that all this inbreeding has shown something very different then you think, its shown that even after all this inbreeding, such key traits are individual behavioral flexibility cannot easily be bred out. So, that you expect they should all be alike is very very unrealistic. Cheers

"You see, I started breeding colubrids in 1964, and have done so since then. This gives me a perspective that most here do not have"

For the love of GOD Frank!, do you EVER give it a freakin rest???

Yes,..blah!-blah!-blah-blah!,.....make no mistake!, YES!, we keep "seeing" this and SOOOOO much more on just about every single post you ever make..LOL!

What I and most of the other people here on the forum REALLY want to see though, is your optimum examples of husbandry and habitat that you are always preaching about, and that you "offer" to all your perfectly kept snakes. From what I have ever gathered, you have NEVER had any feeding problems with ANY of the countless millions of snakes you have ever produced and "pioneered".

For years now I can't help but to picture in my mind that this photo is something like the cool end of one of your optimum snake enclosures.........

and this being a representation of the opposite warm end of the same snake enclosure with optimum habitat for their hiding........

For some strange reason I just don't believe that every single thing you jabber about is something you do yourself. I want to see some specific photos of all these snake containers you are always telling us about.

To be honest, anyone can come on here and type all this impractical gibberish, but your actually applying all this is what I really want to see first hand. I really wish I could be there in person to see this for myself though, because photos can come from just about anywhere too. Sort of like the warm and cold end photos here of what your enclosures must be like..LOL!

cheers!, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Lol! Love the photos! I should do very well with my pyros, as my cabin is pretty cold in the winter and pretty hot in the summer! I don't have to duplicate montane conditions, my snakes and I live them already.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Yeah, but are your containers the proper 3.5 acres each with icicles hanging off the top of the cool end??, and can you fry a steak at the warm end in 5 minutes??. And do your containers sport lush jungle foliage and rocky outcrop hillsides all in between these two drastically different temp gradients and environments??. Do you have a little babbling brook running through their container to simulate nature properly??....hmmm??. yeah, ......I didn't THINK so!

.....Me neither!..HAHAA!, ...oh well!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, but are your containers the proper 3.5 acres each with icicles hanging off the top of the cool end??, and can you fry a steak at the warm end in 5 minutes??. And do your containers sport lush jungle foliage and rocky outcrop hillsides all in between these two drastically different temp gradients and environments??. Do you have a little babbling brook running through their container to simulate nature properly??....hmmm??. yeah, ......I didn't THINK so!

.....Me neither!..HAHAA!, ...oh well!
Well, no, and I also did leave out some other natural features from the wild, such as raccoons, hawks, coyote, bobcats, etc, and several kinds of parasites, not to mention forest fires and severe droughts and cyclical die backs of prey species the snakes depend upon.

My standard tub, used for lizards, snakes, mice; everyone does well in these.

"What, again with the camera!?"
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

"Well, no, and I also did leave out some other natural features from the wild, such as raccoons, hawks, coyote, bobcats, etc, and several kinds of parasites, not to mention forest fires and severe droughts and cyclical die backs of prey species the snakes depend upon"

SEE!, you left out all the important things they need to thrive!..HAHAA!!

Yeah, those pyros seem to be doing real well for you in those tubs, even without all the necessary parasites, hawks, fires, raccoons, droughts and such that you forgot to supply them..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

classic douggie mong, disrespect, mouthy, and completely clueless just TROLL and ATTACK like a rouge shark that needs to be put down.
FR has said MANY times he LOST snakes, but he learned! i know thats a novel concept for you to grasp but he did and certainly deserves props for sharing here. i mean really what do you contribute doug..oohh nice snake, you bet buddy,oh yeah thats PURE, HA, yes you are just a fountain of usable knowledge to the forum one day you will wake up or shall i say be woke up.
its pathetic
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Oh, no, please not another fight. Some replies may be better presented in private messages, so the rest of us don't lose a great thread.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

AMEN!!
Doug, please ignore tomass davis and roll with the punch. His post doesn't deserve a reply.
theOLDherper
Pete

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

of course I keep repeating the same thing over and over. There is good reason for that, people keep having the same basic problems and blaming the poor old snakes for the problems they are causing.

Actually if you look, I address the same problem is a whole bunch of different ways in the hopes one explaination will hit home.

As I mention, the problems people are questioning are the same as WAY back then and were cured way back then.

I do understand that young folks do not understand what time and experience does.

About showing you pics of anything. first, I am not a current kingsnake fella, I have moved on to be a herper. I keep other species, but I do the same things with them and have turned those areas on there ears doing what I learned with kingsnakes.

The funny part is, I am at the tail end of working with varanids. I have stuff named after me, like Retes stacks, that are now mandatory for varanids, or high heat, deep substrate, a large heat range, a wide range of humidity, the importance of nesting, group or social behavior, etc. All learned from kingsnakes.

Funny huh, specically when kingsnake folks FORGOT all that, in favor of LAZY husbandry. Cheers

I can show you that.

But I don't think that if you use smaller enclosiers your not a herper. There are two different schools of thought here. One is of a hobbyist who is trying to mass produce at least in some reasonable quantity, and then there is the Zoo keeper who has huge space and time and money. To create a personal zoo! I think anyone here would love to be able to have giant cages with all sorts of cool reptiles in them. But there are few of us who can! Many people have to live in small efficiencies also, while others have mansions with golf course yards. Like I said before it's all about compromise. I am trying to use the biggest tubs I can possibly accomidate for my breeders. And smaller ones who will soon be moving on to someone who will hopefully put it in a larger enclosier. But I still see many big breeders having great success with the tubs sytem. BHB comes to mind just to name one! So we must be doing something right or the tables wouldn't be overflowing with delicups. Look at all those ignorant breeders producing all those baby snakes, ha ha ha! It must be lonely up there?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

one philosophy is about money, and one is about snakes, which are living animals. That is the point that gets lost in here mostly.

AMEN TO THAT JOE!
,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Your post is a simple rationalization of what you want to do.

The problem is, BhB does not have your problems. He is a friend of mine and is very good at what he does. You on the otherhand are not so experienced at this.

You also go A to Z when there are a lot of letters in the middle.

All I said is, your blaming genetics(the snakes) about something that is a problem with offspring from wild snakes, if they are kept in the same conditions they have the same problems as line bred snakes.

What is funny is, the BHBs know that keeping animals in small cages has its problems, They can live with that. But they also know what they are doing. Its funny you have to think its good to keep animals in little shoeboxes. Its not, but it can be done and is done. Its all about why your doing it. Are you a big time breeder, it appears not.

Heres the deal, breeding snakes is uber easy. Any kid can do it. But to produce them commerically, takes the ability to produce them commerically. Which means, you are required to have experience and ability. All of which is not about the snakes wellbeing. Its all about how efficiently you can produce snakes. You know, income/cost ratio. Which is not about the love of snakes at all or again the snakes wellbeing.

Here you talk, about poor feeding neonates. The most common reason for poor feeding neonates is improper husbandry. End of that story. Could it be this or that or anyother thing, of course it could. So friggin what. How does that work for you?

In your case, your not addressing the most common causes to your problem. Many here, Joe Forks, for example hit the nail on the head, you can fix it if you try. But if you do not try, your not going to fix it. If you blame it on something you cannot fix. You have no chance of fixing it. What good is that? how does that help you learn?

You want to blame genetics, but you have no proof that is the problem, so you use theory and some other animals that have been line bred to a point you cannot tell what they are. Are those your animals. No sir. So why use them as your excuse? No offense, but the ignorant always blame something other then the actual cause, thats why they are ignorant. It could be this, it could be that, it could be the other. The question is, what is the actual problem. This you have not proved or even shown any proof of. You merely hope for an easy answer to your problem. An easy answer that is not your fault or under your control. The truth is, your symtoms are your fault and under your control, or at least there is a very strong possibility of that.

Yet you argue a possibility that doesn't offer you the ability to help yourself or your own animals. So if its genetics, then get rid of them and donn't keep them. Which brings up another point.

Its your responsibility to help your animals in any and all ways that you can. You put them in cages, they are your responsibility. Only you have that burden, its your responsibility. Others like me, try to help you, and you want to fight with those that are trying to help YOU and YOUR(your responsibility)animals.

Which leads to this, I have no responsibility to help you or your animals, I have no reward in helping you other then the hope you will take better care of your animals. Why, because at this time, I like your animals way more then I like you. of course, if you actually took an effort to help your animals, I would like you more, even if you failed.

I know I know, tooooo much. But, but but, Did you come here and ask for opinions, or did you just want someone, anyone to agree that its not your fault?

Something you need to shoulder, its always your fault, they are in your cages. You have 100% responsibility for your animals.

All I suggest is, do what you can do and see if it works. Its not that froging complicated. Cheers

Your trying to make me sound like I don't care about my animals and I take offense to that! I doubt there's anyone here beside Joe who doesn't have problem feeders. Im not blaming anyone or anything but you sure think you have me figured out. BHB can keep the animals in anything he wants cause you know him and that's ok. Im just some wannabe in your eyes who speaks from the heart and speak what I see and I believe. I believe many of you guys who try to look like you have it all figured out are full of it. Is tricking snakes to eat pinks by scenting or teasing or whatever of the twenty tricks to get them to eat actually providing them with the right enviroment? No with maybe the exception of a moist box or a tight space for crevece species. If there is anyone here who has gotten all their snakes to eat by giving them the right enviroment let them say so. I have talked to many experienced breeders and BHB is one who will tell you everyone has stubborn feeders no matter what they do. Yes my snakes are my responsibility and I do a good job raising them! The fact that I think about possibilities of inbreeding is proof! You don't know what kind of experience I have or how long I have been doing it so don't speculate. I am no pioneer but I didn't just start last year. I am not the only one who disagrees with you but few will say it on this site. I am not afraid to speak my mind when I believe i'm right. Do I know it all? No! Do you? You think you do, but NO! You give your opinion as if it is fact! It is not fact, it may be what you truely believe but I disagree quite often with your views. That's my opinion, and I say it is. I don't back down when I feel I'm right. We are arguing about philosophy more than actual husbandry most of the time. I see things different than you do, but only you see things different as wrong.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I see you have these reptiles in an outdoor enclosure, I do the same on a smaller scale for my sceloporus (fence lizards) to give them natural sunlight and not have to bother with uv lamps. My lizards breed and do quite well. Their big screen top tub is portable, so I can bring it in at night.

Did you have outdoor enclosures for your king snakes? I could actually do that as I have rural acreage in the Sierra Nevada foothills. I have an outdoor playpen for my bull snakes, also portable. But everyone has to be brought in during the winter as it just gets too cold to leave them out, well below brumation temps.

If you could show me how you provided your kings and other colubrids with outdoor enclosures that would be awesome!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>If you could show me how you provided your kings and other colubrids with outdoor enclosures that would be awesome!

The coolest set up was described to me by Bob Applegate......
He told me he had some of his Applegate Style drawer enclosures that had multiple subfloor levels against an indoor wall......Along with that he had the same thing on the outside wall with a tube penetration through the wall connecting the two.....

So he had an indoor/outdoor enclosure with multiple levels, choices and options.........

If I won the LOTTO I would have lots of them very similar to the ones described.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah I don't know how every post you make turns into everyone is using poor husbandry! And you say we have a recipe? This post was simply about the power of selective breeding and how it can be, and most definately is effecting our animals. If hundreds, no hundreds of thousands, of snakes are produced in tubs, but a small percentage of these have problems then I would say the system works pretty good. I will admit that I have not had success with Pyros in the typical tub type of set up, and I'm sure other species also may need more complex conditions. That is why I don't breed pyros anymore. Some day if I can provide a larger cage with a more realistic set up I may try again, but till then I just don't try. But I see thousands of people having success with the tubs on most of the colubrids. In fact the market is almost saturated from all the success, lol. Even some of the same people who applaud, and praise your post against tubs! Go figure?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

There's tubs and then there's tubs. I have my young adult pyros in 105 quart sterilite tubs with lots of aspen, hides, moist and dry, heat, water, etc. I like the big tubs as I can fit lots of amenities in there, and the snakes enjoy the space. They get exercise stretching up to the top, too. So is the negative view some have on tubs just that the tubs are usually too small?
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Oh, I certainly agree with you there. The more room, the more you can change things within the tub, and that can be the big key to alot of it regarding their husbandry. I just cannot keep all mine the way I would really, really like to.

Man, if I had unlimited funds and room, boy what I would do then though..LOL!

And judging by the pyro pics I have seen you post in the past, you are obviously doing something quite well enough!, so congrats on that!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks!
I once knew a guy in Tahoe City who had his whole wall where the fireplace was covered in natural stone, with a little stream running down the wall, and a huge sheet of Plexiglas against this, so it was water tight. The stream was circulated and chilled so he could keep small rainbow trout in it. I wish I could make something like that for my pyros! The trouble is, though, then it would be very hard to catch them to feed or do other routine things for them.

I did have a walk in aviary when I kept budgies. It was a hoot to go in there and have the birds land on my shoulder and ask for treats.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Yeah, that sounds like some fun stuff there!. I'll bet the guy's company went nuts over that natural type trout aquarium too!

Yes, when an animal like a bird trusts you enough to land on your shoulder for treats, that is a real rewarding feeling.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think it was 1979, or 1980 I was at FR's house and saw something like that. It was four foot wide by eight foot long. Glass case on top of Cabinets below. Fiberglass rock work with running stream, circulating pump and back up drain. There were built in planters as well. Using cold water and basking lamps drastic temperature gradients were possibly. That was 30 years ago folks.

Dang Doug, you hit the nail on the head. Except you still cannot see the forest for the trees.

Its your friggin choice to keep more snakes that you can house properly. You choose to keep some in less then conditions then others. Not some in better conditions then others. its not about right or wrong, its simply a choice you make.

others choose to keep fewer snakes in better conditions. Instead of recognizing, that the larger better cages should be considered normal. You keep getting more snakes and are good enough to keep them alive in less then conditions(shoebox mentality).

Then other newbie keepers think, dang, doug can keep them in a little show box, thats all you have to do, heck I can do that. Then complain of all manner of basic maladies.

Even some considered experts keep having basic beginer problems and blame the snakes.

In your case, i would think that waiting for an endless supply of money is a bit hopeless, but even with the money you have now, you can keep fewer animals better, IF YOU WANTED or if you choose to

Instead, you rationlize all manner of silly excuses, and blame me. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Cheers

Dang Frank!,.....uhhh,..who said I had any problems with mine, ....it wasn't me?...HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!

You are ASS-uming far too much there Oh mighty Ann Landers of all snakedom!

You see Mr. "Snake Whisperer" I have very few snake problems....EVER!, so please do continue your silly drivel about what I am doing "wrong"...HAHAHAAAAAA!!

Yeah, my plastic tubs are far from being 3.5 acres a piece with a running stream down the middle, but mine all do just fine for me. Is that a big problem for you??....apparently it is.

cheers!, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

HAHAA!, Yeah, ......imagine that!

I guess Donald Trump sucks at making even a half-decent income too......gosh!, if he only knew a better way and applied himself a little more.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Okay, I am really interested in your actual habitats for your assorted snakes. Photos, Please!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Yeah Jorge, it is actually very MUCH on topic!

Every single trait from any two parents we choose to produce offspring with reflects what the clutch will ultimately be. Most just simply do not take the time to line-breed very long to bring many of these traits to the surface.

But it is all "IN THERE"......guaranteed!

It reminds me of an exceptionally freaky, thrashy, nervous biting clutch of Hondo hatchlings I just produced. I know they inherited this trait from their INSANELY whacky, nervous, flighty mother who is like taking out a nervous mamba every single time..LOL!

On the other hand, I have a clutch of extreme hypos that are FAR more easy-going. I attribute this to the laid-back demeanor of BOTH the parents they came from.

Now don't get me wrong everybody, I am certainly not saying it always works the very first time like clock work, but if you select for certain traits over time, they are simply BOUND to display themselves. It is just that most continually breed for color and pattern, and that is about it.

BTW, man!, that bull in the video had freakin muscles upon muscles, huh??!!!!. And that certainly wasn't just a single random accident.....was it? ;E

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"BTW, man!, that bull in the video had freakin muscles upon muscles, huh??!!!!. And that certainly wasn't just a single random accident.....was it? "

Man I would have bet that thing was full of steroids too! But they said it was completely natural just selectively bred that way! I wonder what we could do with snakes if we tried, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah Jorge,....apparently this dude found out what can bedisplayed when the right genetic combination is struck for size in Black Pinesnakes.

These things are absolute MONSTERS!!!!. And check out the size of the yearlings he has a link to as well!.....GEEEZ!!

Looks like they were crossed with gigantic Indigo's for crissakes..LOL!
Link

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Those things are HUGE! I bet they eat full grown rats?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, I am sure those behemoths do eat big adult rats. Could you imagine feeding those like twenty mice at a time otherwise?..LOL!

Those guys are hard to believe they are so enormous man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

didn't watch the video but on a tangent....
I met a guy at a bar in the Atlanta airport years back who had a metal briefcase "handcuffed" to his wrist...well, being 2 hrs. into a 3 hr. layover, I had sipped a few brews... so....aswe talked I couldn't resist asking what the heck was inside that cool case.....
"Bull Semen!" was his reply.....
"No. I'm serious! What's in there?!!" I asked again

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yep!,....certain livestock strains can go for many countless thousands, and their genetic material can be like carrying huge quantities of cash..LOL!

So after a few beers, when he replied "bull semen", did you then tell him..."BULL$H@&"??..HAHAA!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Yep!,....certain livestock strains can go for many countless thousands, and their genetic material can be like carrying huge quantities of cash..LOL!
>>
>>
>> So after a few beers, when he replied "bull semen", did you then tell him..."BULL$H@&"??..HAHAA!!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That funny, LOL,
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

It is "kinda" on topic but that is like comparing dogs to wolves or cats to tigers......

We can still find what we have in the snake room in the wild.....

Were are all the wild cows? Not many, but there are some around the Rio Grande River that look nothing like a domestic beefmaster, Santa Gertrudis, Brahma or Jersey Cow......

Us humans have been line breeding cattle, horses, dogs and cats WAY longer than this 50 year (or more) old hobby.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Gonna chime in, living in ranching country I hear a lot about selective breeding. And having had family members that some too (with sheep--great grandparents and grandparents did some sheep ranching)

You can selectively breed for *anything* that's actually present, but it can be easier or harder depending on the trait, how much gradiation there is within the trait, size of gene pool etc. Like "easy to get frozen/thawed" isn't binary; there's some house snakes I have that I despair of getting on F/t even though they'll scarf live all day, and I've had some that take f/t just fine no problem, and some that took some doing but got established on them after a while. So it isn't black and white, and that'll make breeding for it harder but not impossible. And same with temperment--you'll never get every snake docile (hell, there's still dogs with bad tempers) but you can probably make some progress eventually...give it 10 or 12 generations and see maybe?

One problem reptile people may have is the relative life span of the animals...a bull or cow on a ranch has a shorter reproductive life than a boa constrictor or king snake (since many of themw ind up getting slaughtered). So you'll keep having thier traits injected back into the gene pool longer than you would many domestic mammals, which may retard progress, unless people take major steps to curtail the ability of these animals to breed (select homes that won't breed, sterilize them or euthanize them I guess are the choices). You'll keep getting animals breeding that don't exhibit such a refined example of whatever trait you're trying to breed for otherwise.

You're correct in that captive breeding hasn't been going but the blink of an eye time-wise for snakes; since what, the 50s occasionally, maybe the 60s/70s more consistently? But nothing will happen if we don't try.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Well the fact that we haven't been doing this very long, supports the arguement doesn't it? I believe we have been breeding cattle and sheep for thousands of years. Now another thing to consider is how long have they been selectively breeding those muscular Bulls? I don't remember if they said how long it took, but I bet it wasn't very long. Your points on the years that snakes will breed as compared to bovine is a valid point. We keep churning out the same types for as long as ten years even longer! If we only got two or three breeding years on each female than it would be easier to select for other traits.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Well the fact that we haven't been doing this very long, supports the arguement doesn't it? I believe we have been breeding cattle and sheep for thousands of years. Now another thing to consider is how long have they been selectively breeding those muscular Bulls? I don't remember if they said how long it took, but I bet it wasn't very long. Your points on the years that snakes will breed as compared to bovine is a valid point. We keep churning out the same types for as long as ten years even longer! If we only got two or three breeding years on each female than it would be easier to select for other traits.

My point is.....we are producing what we have in the wild to a point.....It is still selective propagation.....I have NO complaints about my snakes and their offspring....Nothing I would change......Nothing.....

Plus.....Hardly anyone line breeds their snakes for more than 3 generations........Hell....Most aren't even in the hobby that long....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

line breeding isn't the totality of selective breeding though. If you were to selectively breed for, hmm...defined pattern say. You could go and collect fresh stock once in a while too to mix in, taking care to only collect exceptional animals. It's harder to do that with traits that aren't so obvious though; how do I know a snake will readily take f/t or be calm until I've already taken it home and tried to feed it and play with it?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

>>line breeding isn't the totality of selective breeding though. If you were to selectively breed for, hmm...defined pattern say. You could go and collect fresh stock once in a while too to mix in, taking care to only collect exceptional animals. It's harder to do that with traits that aren't so obvious though; how do I know a snake will readily take f/t or be calm until I've already taken it home and tried to feed it and play with it?

You are certainly correct, but EVERYTHING we pair together in our snake room is selective breeding.....That is the one choice we don't give our king snakes......ha!

For me....I lost a whole collection of snakes.....when I rebuilt my collection this time I now have MY DREAM COLLECTION and it's almost complete.....The only things I would add after it is complete are some wild mexicana, because we haven't been able to do that since the 80s.......Other than that I am happy with what I have and what they produce in every way......Reluctant feeders don't bother me.....I know what to do......I have a TON of projects to work with to line breed and outcross and produce some never seen before snakes........that's the fun of it for me.....But I still have some snakes that I like producing wild type animals from....nothing more....nothing less....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yes, and many times it is a virtual crapshoot as to which ones you should really keep for breeding stock, as many types of snake ontogenetically change so drastically as they mature. As hatchlings alot of this is purely flip of the coin guess work and sometimes you see one you sold later on and thought....GEEEZ!, I wish I kept THAT one instead..LOL!

This happens all the time with certain types of snakes.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Another thing to remember too though is a single bull's semen can impregnate coutless females for decades. They collect semen from these specially prized studs on just about a daily basis, then freeze it in liquid nitrogen sperm banks. This is HUUUUGE buisiness worth billions!

Most studs don't have to do anything but sit there to be worth countless millions to the agricultural market and world economy. Many bulls are electronically stimulated then easily collected from. For the most part, it is NOTHING like it was in years apast, it is an exacting practiced science now days.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

And not only that, these huge livestock industries consistently deal with major funded genetic labs to analize TONS of optimum genetic possibilities for whatever they choose to use the stock for. A luxury that virtually all in our hobby could never even dream of doing.

BTW, how would you like to pick this guy to ride at a local amateur rodeo?? ..HAHAA!!. Man, you could even begin to get your legs over this behemoth without doing a split and hurting yourself..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

that thing could flex, crush your nuts and throw you across an arena...eesh.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

LMAO!!!, you ain't kiddin'!, and then totally crush you like a freakin grape with one powerful stomp too!...ARRGH!!

That is indeed one mammoth muscle-bound bull man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I saw a picture of a Liger, (cross between a lion and a Tiger), and it was huge also!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, I think that would definitely be one animal you would want to stear clear of..huh??. Pretty much like this one here!..LMAO!!!!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That guy is running on water, haha!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

HAHAHAA!!

Yeah, I wonder if "dude" got scewered through by that bulls sharp horns when it landed on top of him in the water??

I look at it like this, if you go around messin with, and pestering animals that can easily severely injure or KILL you, you deserve whatever comes your way in the process of doing so.

I guess even that follows suite with this topic. If "dude" gets killed in the process, it will prevent his "stupid" genes from being passed on..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
Reminds me of this movie. Dysgenics in action. we certainly would not want to do this to our snakes!
Too dumb to eat so it starved to death?
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

But then if it starved to death its genes would not get passed on, at least...
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Here is a link to a site with the Liger!

Liger

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That thing is insanely huge!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I wonder why the liger is so much bigger than either parent. Hybrid vigor? Does this ever happen with hybrid snakes; a much bigger offspring than the parents?
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

"I wonder why the liger is so much bigger than either parent. Hybrid vigor? Does this ever happen with hybrid snakes; a much bigger offspring than the parents?"

there are actually two kinds of lion/ tiger hybrids- the liger and the tigon. a liger is the result of male lion breeding with female tiger, the tigon is the reverse. a male lion's genetic contribution will encourage a larger (adult) offspring, and the female tiger has no genetic coding to prevent this. however, a lioness's genes WILL hinder the eventual adult size of her offspring, while her male tiger counterpart has no genetic influence to encourage larger progeny. thus, ligers are friggin huge, and tigons are actually smaller than either a lion or tiger. this is explained in much more detail here --> http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/growth-dysplasia.htm

as far as snakes go, i don't think that the same applies, though it could possibly depend on which species are being crossed.

Now that is extremely interesting to me. Thanks for chiming in on the differences between the two types there.

I would definitely hate to come face to face with either one!

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

yeah I forgot to mention that it depends on which female and male is used as to the size. Still I find that Mules which are hybrids between a horse and a Donkey also tend to be very large. There is also a weird story in the bible about Angels coming down and mating with wemon and having Giants as offspring! Weird huh?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"There is also a weird story in the bible about Angels coming down and mating with women and having Giants as offspring! Weird huh?"

Nothing weird about that Jorge, I see those all the time wrestling on TV!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!!, too funny man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"Us humans have been line breeding cattle, horses, dogs and cats WAY longer than this 50 year (or more) old hobby......."

True but I wonder how much "domestication takes place early on? Remember the old 80/20. 80% of the result comes from 20% of the effort. As a whole, I think we're further along in the process of domesticating these animals than you post suggests. Proliferation of morphs, shifts in food preference, failures to properly nest...... are all indications of divergence from characteristics more fitting to survival in a plastic tub than in the wild.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>"Us humans have been line breeding cattle, horses, dogs and cats WAY longer than this 50 year (or more) old hobby......."
>>
>>True but I wonder how much "domestication takes place early on? Remember the old 80/20. 80% of the result comes from 20% of the effort. As a whole, I think we're further along in the process of domesticating these animals than you post suggests. Proliferation of morphs, shifts in food preference, failures to properly nest...... are all indications of divergence from characteristics more fitting to survival in a plastic tub than in the wild.

Tony....
Do you really think we are seeing evolution within this short amount of time in our snake room?.....
I know wild hogs can be domesticated rather quickly and become wild again just as quick......

I don't see it with our snakes, but I do "get your point." Of course we can not and do not re invent the wild in our plastic tubs or enclosures......We provide necessary choices and that is it.....There is soooo much we cannot provide......

I think the Ball Python and Cornsnake hobby is FAR from wild snakes, but I think there are some snake genres in our hobby that are still rather close to wild specimens in behavior and appearance....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I don't think that domestication is evolution. Genetically a terier is still a wolf.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Of course selective breeding is evolution. That was a key observation that Darwin made. I recommend reading the chapter, "variation under domestication", from On the origin of species.

To think otherwise is completely absurd.

Wolves and dogs are very different. Speciation begins with behavior, and there was a divergence between dogs and wolves long ago behaviorally.

There are, unfortunately, wolves back in my neighborhood, and they are NOT domesticated dogs, not even close.

Changes in DNA take a long time, by looking just at DNA we are same as chimps. I would bet there is more genetic divergence between Cal kings and Fl kings than there are between humans and chimps, and that is not much.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Evoltion is a man made term and man has been trying to fit everything into this theory for years now but nature doesn't really fit their definitions. That's why we constantly change our definitions to try to encorparate what nature is doing. We share some large percentage of DNA with bananas too. We can selectively breed for ever and we will never turn a snake into something other than a snake. But I really don't want to go down the evolution road, I did this on another site and it made my head hurt, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

we share a small percentage of DNA with banana's sure. Basic cellular instructions and such, you know the same morphological stuff too....cells, structural proteins, carbohydrates, etc. All that stuff is essentially the same DNA in very thing that shares those characteristics. That only supports evolution. The theory of evolution is an observation, that has only become more valid with time. Darwin had no idea about DNA or genetics. Mendel's pea experiments had not even been published! Just look at the evidence!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

There is actually more evidence against it. More and more evilutionists are even getting away from the big bang theory cause it really breaks the laws of thermodynamics. They have been tweaking and revising the parameters to try to make it fit but it just doesn't. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Yet big bang says, in the beginning there was a void and it blew up and created everything we see. How do you believe the grand Canyion was created? Reluctantly I ask, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

you misunderstand the laws of thermodynamics, the theory of evolution and the big bang theory. Stop watching Dr. Dino tapes, and do some independent research as to what the actual theories are and the evidence that supports them, and not some other persons interpretation.

Tell me this: what APPLICATION can humans USE to our benefit (financial or otherwise) that is directly derived from creationist "knowledge"? In other words what technology has been patented or saved lives? I just want one example!

I can tell you countless real world applications that have only become possible because of our understanding of evolution. In fact modern medicine, is only possible because of our understanding of evolution. As an evolutionary biologist I use the principles/theory of evolution everyday at my job, and I am rewarded with results that support the theory on a daily basis.

Evolution (also known as biological, genetic or organic evolution) is the change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms through successive generations.

Since you can only disprove in science with a counterexample, please give me one that disproves the above statement.

I would say that based on our current understanding of inheritance and genetics, there are only two possible outcomes over time; species extinction or species evolution. The two are inseparable. In fact, by definition sexual reproduction IS evolution. So unless you reproduce clonally your contributing to the evolution of the human species. And actually clones will change over time too. DNA replication is not perfect, so random genetic errors will accumulate and cause changes (= evolution)
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I really didn't want to get into this. I asked you a question and you answered by asking me several questions. Look I believe in gradual changes in any animal. Hell I breed snakes, I see changes it's not difficult to see. But I believe there are limitations! I don't believe an animal can evolve into another animal. It may look a little different over time but there is no evidence at all that reptiles developed feathers and learned to fly and evolved into birds. I don't believe it, cause there is no real evidence for it. In fact the complex structure of birds are greatly different from any reptile. A bird will always have bird babies! No scientific rambling will ever change that. Dr. Dino has a lot of thought provoking info. I don't believe evrything he says, but I never heard his viewpoint in school or anywhere else really. We are not given all possibilities to consider. We have been spoon fed what to believe and some of it is silly. Sorry. So how was that Canion formed?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

what is archaeopteryx?
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

A bird! It was retracted a short time after it was declared to be a missing link, but the retraction got little publicity. They also recently found soft tissue in the center of a 70 million year old T-Rex bone. Really? 70 million years and still soft? There is more to all this then we have been taught, that's all I'm saying. By the way Text books say the colorado river carved the Grand Canyion even still today. But if the river carved the canyion then it ran uphill for millions of years to slowly carve over a mountain ridge which is the gran canyion. I read a long explanation by a Scientist who believes in evoltion by the way. He explained all the reasons that the river could not have done it but he had no good theory of how it could have happenned. I believe it was a flood that came up on one side and eventually acted like a breached dam. It could have carved the canyion in a matter of hours not millions of years. It's a better theory than a river flowing uphill?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

BS! they have found 7 archaeopteryx fossils. I repeat 7. I have physically held one in my hand and analyzed it. It is not any bird alive today. So again lies. Do you OWN investigation!

Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon. Hours?? are you crazy? There are 2 million years of history there! Do you know what the Colorado river looked like before they dammed it, and we sucked it dry with all our irrigation? Do you know anything about the Missoula floods?
I'm not a geologist, but that is just plain silly.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I didn't say it was a bird living today? It did exist no doubt about it. And as for the canion I did a lot of research on it. I stated that I even found Evoltionists who say that it is impossible for the river to have carved it. Do you know that the top of the canion is thousands of feet higher than the bottom where the river flows?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Problems with Dinosaurs Evolving into Birds
Warm-blooded vs. cold-blooded
Seemingly forgotten in all the claims that birds are essentially dinosaurs (or at least that they evolved from dinosaurs) is the fact that dinosaurs are reptiles. There are many differences between birds and reptiles, including the fact that (with precious few exceptions) living reptiles are cold-blooded creatures, while birds and mammals are warm-blooded. Indeed, even compared to most mammals, birds have exceptionally high body temperatures resulting from a high metabolic rate.

The difference between cold- and warm-blooded animals isn’t simply in the relative temperature of the blood but rather in their ability to maintain a constant body core temperature. Thus, warm-blooded animals such as birds and mammals have internal physiological mechanisms to maintain an essentially constant body temperature; they are more properly called “endothermic.” In contrast, reptiles have a varying body temperature influenced by their surrounding environment and are called “ectothermic.” An ectothermic animal can adjust its body temperature behaviorally (e.g., moving between shade and sun), even achieving higher body temperature than a so-called warm-blooded animal, but this is done by outside factors.

In an effort to make the evolution of dinosaurs into birds seem more plausible, some evolutionists have argued that dinosaurs were also endothermic,1 but there is no clear evidence for this.2

One of the lines of evidence for endothermic dinosaurs is based on the microscopic structure of dinosaur bones. Fossil dinosaur bones have been found containing special microscopic structures called osteons (or Haversian systems). Osteons are complex concentric layers of bone surrounding blood vessels in areas where the bone is dense. This arrangement is assumed by some to be unique to endothermic animals and thus evidence that dinosaurs are endothermic, but such is not the case. Larger vertebrates (whether reptiles, birds, or mammals) may also have this type of bone. Even tuna fish have osteonal bone in their vertebral arches.

Another argument for endothermy in dinosaurs is based on the eggs and assumed brood behavior of dinosaurs, but this speculation too has been challenged.3 There is in fact no theropod brooding behavior not known to occur in crocodiles and other cold-blooded living reptiles.

Alan Feduccia, an expert on birds and their evolution, has concluded that “there has never been, nor is there now, any evidence that dinosaurs were endothermic.”4 Feduccia says that despite the lack of evidence “many authors have tried to make specimens conform to the hot-blooded theropod dogma.”

“Bird-hipped” vs. “lizard-hipped” dinosaurs
All dinosaurs are divided into two major groups based on the structure of their hips (pelvic bones): the lizard-hipped dinosaurs (saurischians) and the bird-hipped dinosaurs (ornithiscians). The main difference between the two hip structures is that the pubic bone of the bird-hipped dinosaurs is directed toward the rear (as it is in birds) rather than entirely to the front (as it is in mammals and reptiles).

But in most other respects, the bird-hipped dinosaurs, including such huge quadrupedal sauropods as Brachiosaurus and Diplodocus, are even less bird-like than the lizard-hipped, bipedal dinosaurs such as the theropods. This point is rarely emphasized in popular accounts of dinosaur/bird evolution.

The three-fingered hand
One of the main lines of evidence cited by evolutionists for the evolution of birds from theropod dinosaurs is the three-fingered “hand” found in both birds and theropods. The problem is that recent studies have shown that there is a digital mismatch between birds and theropods.

Most terrestrial vertebrates have an embryological development based on the five-fingered hand. In the case of birds and theropod dinosaurs, two of the five fingers are lost (or greatly reduced) and three are retained during development of the embryo. If birds evolved from theropods, one would expect the same three fingers to be retained in both birds and theropod dinosaurs, but such is not the case. Evidence shows that the fingers retained in theropod dinosaurs are fingers 1, 2, and 3 (the “thumb” is finger 1) while the fingers retained in birds are 2, 3, and 4.5

Avian vs. reptilian lung
One of the most distinctive features of birds is their lungs. Bird lungs are small in size and nearly rigid, but they are, nevertheless, highly efficient to meet the high metabolic needs of flight. Bird respiration involves a unique “flow-through ventilation” into a set of nine interconnecting flexible air sacs sandwiched between muscles and under the skin. The air sacs contain few blood vessels and do not take part in oxygen exchange, but rather function like bellows to move air through the lungs.

The air sacs permit a unidirectional flow of air through the lungs resulting in higher oxygen content than is possible with the bidirectional air flow through the lungs of reptiles and mammals. The air flow moves through the same tubes at different times both into and out of the lungs of reptiles and mammals, and this results in a mixture of oxygen-rich air with oxygen-depleted air (air that has been in the lungs for awhile). The unidirectional flow through bird lungs not only permits more oxygen to diffuse into the blood but also keeps the volume of air in the lungs nearly constant, a requirement for maintaining a level flight path.

If theropod dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds, one might expect to find evidence of an avian-type lung in such dinosaurs. While fossils generally do not preserve soft tissue such as lungs, a very fine theropod dinosaur fossil (Sinosauropteryx) has been found in which the outline of the visceral cavity has been well preserved. The evidence clearly indicates that this theropod had lung and respiratory mechanics similar to that of a crocodile—not a bird.6 Specifically, there was evidence of a diaphragm-like muscle separating the lung from the liver, much as you see in modern crocodiles (birds lack a diaphragm). These observations suggest that this theropod was similar to an ectothermic reptile, not an endothermic bird.

Origin of Feathers
Do feathered dinosaurs exist?
Feathers have long been considered to be unique to birds. Certainly all living birds have feathers of some kind, while no living creature other than birds has been found to have a cutaneous appendage even remotely similar to a feather. Since most evolutionists are certain that birds evolved from dinosaurs (or at least are closely related to them), there has been an intense effort to find dinosaur fossils that show some suggestion of feathers or “protofeathers.” With such observer bias, one must be skeptical of recent widely publicized reports of feathered dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs are reptiles, and so it is not surprising that fossil evidence has shown them to have a scaly skin typical of reptiles. For example, a recently discovered well-preserved specimen of Compsognathus (a small theropod dinosaur of the type believed to be most closely related to birds) showed unmistakable evidence of scales but alas—no feathers.7

Still, there have been many claims of feathered dinosaurs, particularly from fossils found in Liaoning province in northeastern China.8 The earliest feathered dinosaur from this source is the very unbird-like dinosaur Sinosauropteryx, which lacks any evidence of structures that could be shown to be feather-like.9

Structures described as “protofeathers” in the dinosaur fossils Sinosauropteryx and Sinithosaurus are filamentous and sometimes have interlaced structures bearing no obvious resemblance to feathers. It now appears likely that these filaments (often referred to as “dino-fuzz”) are actually connective tissue fibers (collagen) found in the deep dermal layer of the skin. Feduccia laments that “the major and most worrying problem of the feathered dinosaur hypothesis is that the integumental structures have been homologized with avian feathers on the basis of anatomically and paleontologically unsound and misleading information.”10

Complicating matters even further is the fact that true birds have been found among the Liaoning province fossils in the same layers as their presumed dinosaur ancestors. The obvious bird fossil Confuciusornis sanctus, for example, has long slender tail feathers resembling those of a modern scissor-tail flycatcher. Two taxa (Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx) that were thought to be dinosaurs with true feathers are now generally conceded to be flightless birds.11

Thus far, the only obvious dinosaur fossil with obvious feathers that was “found” is Archaeoraptor liaoningensis. This so-called definitive feathered dinosaur was reported with much fanfare in the November 1999 issue of National Geographic but has since been shown to be a fraud.

What would it prove if features common to one type of animal were found on another? Nothing. Simply put, God uses various designs with various creatures. Take the platypus, for example—a mosaic. It has several design features that are shared with other animals, and yet it is completely distinct. So if a dinosaur (or mammal) is ever found with feathers, it would call into question our human criteria for classification, not biblical veracity. What’s needed to support evolution is not an unusual mosaic of complete traits, but a trait in transition, such as a “scale-feather,” what creationist biologists would call a “sceather.”

Feathers and scales are dissimilar.
If birds evolved from dinosaurs or any other reptile, then feathers must have evolved from reptilian scales. Evolutionists are so confident that feathers evolved from scales that they often claim that feathers are very similar to scales. The popular Encarta computerized encyclopedia (1997) describes feathers as a “horny outgrowth of skin peculiar to the bird but similar in structure and origin to the scales of fish and reptiles.”12

In actual fact, feathers are profoundly different from scales in both their structure and growth. Feathers grow individually from tube-like follicles similar to hair follicles. Reptilian scales, on the other hand, are not individual follicular structures but rather comprise a continuous sheet on the surface of the body. Thus, while feathers grow and are shed individually (actually in symmetrically matched pairs!), scales grow and are shed as an entire sheet of skin.

The feather vane is made up of hundreds of barbs, each bearing hundreds of barbules interlocked with tiny hinged hooklets. This incredibly complex structure bears not the slightest resemblance to the relatively simple reptilian scale. Still, evolutionists continue to publish imaginative scenarios of how long-fringed reptile scales evolved by chance into feathers, but evidence of “sceathers” eludes them.

Archaeopteryx, a True Bird, Is Older than the “Feathered” Dinosaurs.
One of the biggest dilemmas for those who want to believe that dinosaurs evolved into birds is that the so-called feathered dinosaurs found thus far are dated to be about 20 million years more recent than Archaeopteryx. This is a problem for evolution because Archaeopteryx is now generally recognized to be a true bird.13 Some specimens of this bird are so perfectly fossilized that even the microscopic detail of its feathers is clearly visible. So, having alleged missing links of dinosaurs changing into birds when birds already exist doesn’t help the case for evolution.

For many years Archaeopteryx has been touted in biology textbooks and museums as the perfect transitional fossil, presumably being precisely intermediate between reptiles and birds. Much has been made over the fact that Archaeopteryx had teeth, fingers on its wings, and a long tail—all supposedly proving its reptilian ancestry. While there are no living birds with teeth, other fossilized birds such as Hesperornis also had teeth. Some modern birds, such as the ostrich, have fingers on their wings, and the juvenile hoatzin (a South American bird) has well-developed fingers and toes with which it can climb trees.

Origin of Flight
One of the biggest problems for evolutionists is explaining the origin of flight. To make matters worse, evolutionists believe that the flying birds evolved before the nonflying birds, such as penguins.

The theropod type of dinosaur that is believed to have evolved into flying birds is, to say the least, poorly designed for flight. These dinosaurs have small forelimbs that typically can’t even reach their mouths. It is not clear what theropods, such as the well-known T. rex, did with their tiny front limbs. It is obvious that they didn’t walk, feed, or grasp prey with them, and they surely didn’t fly with them!

Another problem is that this bipedal type of dinosaur had a long heavy tail to balance the weight of a long neck and large head. Decorating such a creature with feathers would hardly suffice to get it off the ground or be of much benefit in any other way.

Conclusion
Having a true bird appear before alleged feathered dinosaurs, no mechanism to change scales into feathers, no mechanism to change a reptilian lung into an avian lung, and no legitimate dinosaurs found with feathers are all good indications that dinosaurs didn’t turn into birds.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Your thoughts are all over the place and you have no ref to back up what your trying to say.

Just one application that will benefit humans that comes from you theory is all I want. How can I feed my family with your ideas?

I feed my family, and help people solve their scientific questions in human medicine and beyond with the theory of evolution. That is real my friend.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

If you read that article above and still insist on Reptiles turning into birds than there is nothing I can say to add to that. But I will say that much of what you call evolution is real Science. The term Evolution gets thrown around but doesn't aways apply. I know animals adapt and can change thru mutations but I believe there's limits, and one animal can not evolve into a completely different animal. There is no real proof. Also I could feed my family from robbing banks but that doesn't make it right?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That is what I thought! You have nothing!

....the above is a bunch of words on a screen. It is gibberish with nothing to back it up. Have you ever looked at one of the 7 fossils? Held it in your hand? How about looking at the similarities between birds and reptiles, and what do you come up with? You need to take a course on comparative anatomy. You do not understand what your talking about.

Comparing molecular biology/evolutionary theory to robbing a bank? Get a life. I'm done here.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Whatever! I bet you didn't even read the article I posted? If you did tell me what's wrong with it.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

2 billion years, ice ages, volcanoes, floods!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Dorbry's point was valid, the wolk dog example was a bad one, but I still hold that even if domestication is a form of evolution it is distinctly different. Chances are if we dropped off the scene, or little domestication projects would either quickly revert to wild types or vanish with us.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

perhaps, but we are not purposely applying "selective pressures" either. I'm sure we are inevitably selecting for "good captives", ie the ones that can handle our limited conditions the best survive and reproduce. However our captive breeding of these animals is only a nanosecond compared to their biological evolution and life history.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Another point I would like to make is the fact that snakes have been here way longer than us.....They have already evolved perfectly........Who are we to try and make that any better in our short lifetime?
Not Possible!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

the real point is we are effecting these snakes whether you want to or not. You may not see the difference but it is happening and down the road future herpers are gonna see it even more. Who knows there may be ads saying, blah blah snakes selectively bred for good eating response and high fertility. It could happen! But again what about certain species where we have such a little gene pool to start with? What will happen 50 years from now if we don't find new blood to add in the mix? These are just questions I think about sometimes. Husbandry is important, there's no doubt about it. But it's not the answer to everything as FR would have us believe.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>the real point is we are effecting these snakes whether you want to or not. You may not see the difference but it is happening and down the road future herpers are gonna see it even more. Who knows there may be ads saying, blah blah snakes selectively bred for good eating response and high fertility. It could happen! But again what about certain species where we have such a little gene pool to start with? What will happen 50 years from now if we don't find new blood to add in the mix? These are just questions I think about sometimes. Husbandry is important, there's no doubt about it. But it's not the answer to everything as FR would have us believe.

GO FOR IT JORGE!......More power to ya.......
No reason for me to re invent the wheel......
My snakes are fine just the way they are.....
And....Husbandry is EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I wasn't directing any of this at you. No need to raise your letters at me, lol. Wow, everyone is so touchy. I've seen your duplex Applegate type enclosiers and I wish I could afford to keep all my snakes that way but I can't. I am guilty of selecting for looks also. I have a little runt Cornsnake that popped out from WC parents. This thing looks like a bonified Bloodred. I'm doing everything I can to insure it survives so I can do further breedings with it. But yet I can't help but think in the back of my mind that maybe this line will have problems since I am starting off with such a little runt. I also said Husbandry is very important! However you can't tell me that if you had a choice between a pair of robust healthy looking snakes, and a pair of thin underweight snakes you wouldn't pick the robust ones? Of course you would. So Husbandry isn't everything? But it is a big part, no doubt about it. Cheers!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

No Jorge....I was just stating that I am not going to change anything...If I do it will be with husbandry not with selective breeding for high fertility and great feeders.......

If that is what you want then go for it....Not really trying to be touchy just stating that I am VERY HAPPY with what we are dealt.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hey like I said, it's just thoughts and Ideas. I would never call anyone a retard for doing something that works for them. But to say that we are not altering our snakes in some way, by captive breeding for generations is not being honest. At least I don't think so. If you truely believe it, then I apologize.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

like I said dopmestication is not evolution but the traits we generally breed for make these animals less and less fit for the wild and more and more suited to our needs. One doesn't have to like truths. They are there regardless and in direct answer to your question, yes I think we've changed these animals significantly over the last 30 or so years.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I agree! just look at the Ball Pythons. Many of them today actually eat, lol. Cornsnakes have gone thru a change also. If you can't see a difference between a morph that's been bred for twenty or thirty years, and a WC then I don't know what to say?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I first read about this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

at least 20 years when they first started seeing pattern anomalies in these foxes. That would be when the project was about 40 years old. So yes domestication or the effect of the process can happen in a relatively short period of time.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry I just got around to reading it, but that is very interesting indeed! You see that is exactly what I believe is happening to our snakes long term of course. They are changing. Also I believe we can steer the changes by our choices.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Rationalization at its best. You mention failure to nest properly. The ability to nest is based on a proper nest, properties that tell the snake its a nest. This is true with fish, and birds, and you think maybe reptiles. in order to nest properly, you must provide something the keys the animal to think its a nest. You don't and you wonder why they don't nest properly.

Then you blame your ignorance on the animal. heck the problem exsists with wild caught snakes, its not about generations in captivity. i have pointed that out many times.

you did support my arguement, I would imagine thru selection, that after many many many generations and lots of culling, you could produce snakes that consider shoe boxes in another shoebox a proper nest. Maybe ringnecks would be a better species to work with. Cheers

This rational still boggles my mind. If we have hundreds of snakes who choose the shoebox and lets say 20 who don't, then is it bad husbandry? NO it's 20 snakes with a defect of some sort. Now say 10 of those crazy snakes who would choose oh, water instead of peat or moss,let's say ten are screamers. Of course we don't want to let those good looks go to waste now do we? So we breed them and better yet line breed them cause they are smokers you know. Now instead of 20% you may have easily doubled it to 40% who now think a water bowl is a good place to lay eggs! I know my math is off but you get the picture, I hope. Any other Farmer, which is what we are, would never use stock like that for breeders! So yes they exist in nature. but if they look good we will multiply them, over and over.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

This business of providing the proper nest so the mama recognizes it as an actual safe place to lay her eggs has been a challenge for me in raising my little fence lizards. Mostly the mamas will find the slightly moist sand and moss tub under the cardboard flat in the big lizard cage an optimum place to deposit their eggs, but once there was a confused mama who laid her eggs just anywhere in the cage. For her I put her in a smaller cage away from her sisters and mate, and she laid the next clutch in the right place.

A friend who raises pyros and has been doing so for over 20 years had a mama lay her eggs in the water bowl. Only one egg survived and recently hatched.

I think with these little creatures we have to try to think like they do. I think the confused mama lizard was maybe intimidated by the other lizards. The pyro had laid previous clutches in the right place, so I don't know what happened there.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I always take out the water bowl when the mother snake is nesting.....She gets plenty of moisture from her meals and from the moist moss.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

But wait is this giving the snake choices? You removed that choice! You insured that that bad choice was not an option.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>But wait is this giving the snake choices? You removed that choice! You insured that that bad choice was not an option.

Correctomundo.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

your not giving them the choice! You basically make the entire enclosier a laying site, lol. I think i saw you do this didn't you? So is this fixing the problem or illiminating the snakes choices?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>your not giving them the choice! You basically make the entire enclosier a laying site, lol. I think i saw you do this didn't you? So is this fixing the problem or illiminating the snakes choices?

With most of my snakes a drawer full of moist sphagnum moss serves as a place to absorb moisture.......In the Spring/Summer it is THE lay box for eggs..........

In the rack system.....half of the enclosure is turned into a nesting spot for females....I cover the Peat Moss and Sphagnum Moss mix with a clear 15qt tub lid....I can see them burrowing, making nests and laying eggs.........Much cooler than I used to do it with a shoebox filled with moss and a lid with a hole in it.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>But wait is this giving the snake choices? You removed that choice! You insured that that bad choice was not an option.

BTW....
After I changed to Applegate enclosures and moist hides I VERY RARELY see my snake drink or soak in water.........

But I only have 20 of these enclosures.....So the rest are in tubs awaiting a new invention I have that incorporates an Applegate Enclosure within a Sterlite or Rubbermaid tub.......Stay tuned......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

i have an idea for a wooden enclosier with a pull out drawer made of a tub. I just don't have the free time to build it but I have all the components. But this will be for a few select animals I don't have space for all my snakes to live in them.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>i have an idea for a wooden enclosier with a pull out drawer made of a tub. I just don't have the free time to build it but I have all the components. But this will be for a few select animals I don't have space for all my snakes to live in them.

Here is something I built last year.....
I guess you would say I'm an technical too and can handle a pinky pump if need be.....LOL

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hi Bob. I like your post, its states that animals do have "behavior" and that we/you often do not know what that behavior is. Yet you attempted something and allowed it to work. Which is the point I am trying to make.

Lizards seem to be more behavioral, that is, such things as proper nesting are much more important and include more then base physical needs.

What experience has taught me, that is after thousands of successful nesting of many many species of lizards, and lots of failure. Its taught me that lizards include more then simple temp and humidity, or even what was a proper place, as in your enclosure does not mean all that much. They have other agendas like spacing of nests, or what other lizard has used that area, etc. They are great teachers, once you learn what is important to them, snakes are soooooooo easy.

About that pyro. laying in the water bowl tells you one thing, the other area was not right. Its an easy experiment. Take away every thing in a cage and they will nearly always lay in the water bowl. The only moist area in the cage. Add a humid dark area and they will nearly always lay there. Even if there is a water bowl in the cage.

so what happened is interesting, the snake said to you, there is something wrong with the nest provided, so she layed in the last resort, the water bowl. You said, she had previously layed there. but that was a year ago, two years ago, etc. Did anything change during that time? My bet is, it was too dry. Or it was moldy. She said, it was wrong.

The point is, we do not have to know or understand what the snakes do, the truth is, they do not lie. They have reasons, we just do not understand them. Our task is to attempt to understand them, not dismiss them or blame the trashcan.

Most colubrid keepers SUCK with a capital S with breeding lizards. Muchless varanids. Varanids are totally behavioral and have all manner of behavioral reasons included in pairing and nesting.

I have a lizard breeding facility, as such, I have indoor cages, outdoor cages, and indoor outdoor cages. I do keep some snakes and some torts and turtles.

We cannot keep snakes outdoors because of the intense heat in the summer and dryness. We attempted to keep coachwhips outdoors and it cooked them. We could do it with indoor outdoor cages. Our cages only had about 18" of substrate, my guess is, it was not deep enough or they could not burrow like the monitors.

I also have handfed wild scelops and had them follow me around sit on my lap, etc etc etc. i watched them pair, breed, and nest and the eggs hatch. All without walls. We did place local lizards in your cages and they breed like flys and nest without problem to a point of insanity. We also have baby lizards get in the cage I posted, grow up where they cannot leave the cage, pair up, nest, etc. Without any help from me.

on the otherhand, varanids will only rarely hatch in the cages. The eggs take toooooo long. Yet local lizards take about 28 days. Also ants consume the non native lizards, and do not consume native lizards. There are a couple of exceptions.

Anyway, enjoy your fence lizards.
Cheers

>>This rational still boggles my mind. If we have hundreds of snakes who choose the shoebox and lets say 20 who don't, then is it bad husbandry? NO it's 20 snakes with a defect of some sort. Now say 10 of those crazy snakes who would choose oh, water instead of peat or moss,let's say ten are screamers. Of course we don't want to let those good looks go to waste now do we? So we breed them and better yet line breed them cause they are smokers you know. Now instead of 20% you may have easily doubled it to 40% who now think a water bowl is a good place to lay eggs! I know my math is off but you get the picture, I hope. Any other Farmer, which is what we are, would never use stock like that for breeders! So yes they exist in nature. but if they look good we will multiply them, over and over.

NO....your husbandry was just enough to be correct for a percentage of your snakes.....Not all of them........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LOL, I guess the cup is half empty? I don't know if a snake chooses to lay in water, that is the keepers fault. Other than removing the water bowl and hoping you don't get buisy and forget to put it back, there's not much else to do. If a decent nesting box is provided. I suspect that many of these clutches were infertile and would not have hatched anyway, but that's a different story.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

FR, you mention that even wild caught snakes have difficulties with recognition of nest boxes in captivitiy. We also know that wild caught snakes also have difficulty sometimes recognizing food offered, as well as the fact we mean them no harm and they should not bite us LOL!! In my opinion, WILD snakes in nature probably have difficulties at time recognizing what they should be doing naturally like selecting appropriate nesting sites, hibernaculums, or selecting to live in less than suitable habitat when better habitat is available to them. Some even produce defective young. In these cases, their progeny or themselves fail and those genes are halted. You dont see kinked babies, picky feeders or animals with bad nesting/brumation habits in nature. My point is, natural selection culls out these defects and those genetic tendencies are eliminated from the gene pool. Nature selects what animals are best suited for the conditions at hand, whether in captivity or in the wild. Stupid snakes and bad genetics exist in nature, we just dont have the opportunity to see them very often, if at all. I do agree there are husbandry issues that can be avoided or tweaked to better enhance the health and well being of the animals. However, I have to agree with Jorge that based on the statistics, there is a lot of "right" going on inside plastic tubs, and some animals are just genetically prone not to survive regardless of habitat.

I was making another point Frank. More later.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM