Reptile & Amphibian Forums

face it we put them in a box with limited temp and humidity gradients and they do poorly thats on us but somehow some wanna say its the snakes! genetics,inbreeding,outbreeding,crossbreeding,etc,etc. all the while trying to justify poor conditions.
fact is husbandry IS everything. the bigger the temp gradient you offer the better. the better the humidity gradient you offer the more benefit you will see in most snakes especially kings. with larger enclosures kings actually do bond and/or pair up. i have many that live together year around. I learned things like this through listening to folks like FR and actually applying knowledge he learned and shared here.
picky eaters, slow growers, spastic attitudes, can ALL be controlled through husbandry plain and simple.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Actually Thomas you hit the nail on the head......I agree with you and FR on this topic.......

I've been doing this almost 20 years and nothing has gotten better except my husbandry......the snakes.....well they are still the same.....I even line bred some for three generations and the only results I got were visual........Yet they are still the same snakes that folks worked with back in the 60s........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John, husbandry is VERY important, but I cannot agree that it solves ALL woes bestowed upon us in the herp hobby. I think a point that is being severly missed is that snakes with genetic/behavioural/physical defects DO occur in the perfect habitat of Mother Nature. Do you not think there are stupid snakes for whatever reason that lay eggs in bad nesting spots in nature like on top hard ground or water filled ditches? Or select bad hibernaculums and die in winter? Or produce kinked or non-feeding babies? This does not just occur in our plastic boxes that can be blamed on "husbandry". This occurs in the wild as well. The only difference IMHO is that Mother Nature does not offer second chances, or tease feeds, or pulls the eggs from aspen bedding to put in an appropriate incubation medium. No, Mother Nature allows these defects to die out, so we rarelry if ever see them. Eventually, these defective animals fail to grow, reproduce, die out, and the problem is solved in a roundabout way. When baby alterna are hatched, do you think they seek out rodent nests to feed on pink mice? No, they seek their natural prey of small lizards. If lizards are not available, do you think because they are in the wild and in "perfect" habitat they will automatically switch to feeding on pink mice, insects, worms, or human fingers because their "husbandry" is as perfect as it can get being in the wild? To think kinked or malformed babies NEVER occur in the wild because the females always select the best nest site with perfect conditions that are available to them in their perfect wild habitat is a bit ludicrous as well IMO. To think babies do not hatch out in the perfect habitat of the wild with no desire to feed or thrive AT ALL is a bit farfetched to me as well. The plain fact is these conditions that others want to blame on poor husbandry factors exist in nature. So, what is the excuse for this occurring in nature that some are conveniently forgetting to acknowledge? If you cannot blame these behaviours, defects, pitfalls on husbandry, what do you deduce causes these things to occur?? And, if they can occur in the perfect habitat of nature, what makes ANYONE so sure of their husbandry abilities to completely avoid them in captivity???

And if all that 'stuff' happens in the wild and in our herp rooms then there is no need to change it......No one will live long enough to do it anyway.......Most are only in the hobby for just a few years until they figure out they can't get rich off of something that someone else already did.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

No offense John, but I am missing your point, or do not know how to properly interpret your reply.

>>No offense John, but I am missing your point, or do not know how to properly interpret your reply.

Sorry....I got off on a tangent while typing...LOL

All I am saying is PLEASE someone start this genetically line bred super snakes that produce big healthy eggs in which all of them hatch and all the babies eat f/t pinkies on the way out of their eggs......If the younger guys start right now maybe by the time they die they may see some results.......But......Most are only in this hobby for just a few years before they decide it's not their thing.........

John Cherry has claimed to have produce thayeri that eat readily every clutch. He says he has line bred for strong feeders.....

I say the variability of thayeri isn't only visual......

My main point is this:
There is nothing wrong with the snakes I work with...They know exactly what they want.......I am here to try and figure it out....And I do nearly all of the time.......The very few that I have lost in the 14 years of breeding were my fault not the poor snakes........They knew what they needed to survive but I did not provide.......In the first few years of producing snakes I lost a few more than I have in the last 10 years.....In the last 8 years I have improved my husbandry and have not lost a snake due to nonfeeding....I have still had some still born babies though.......You say this happens in the wild, so I guess I am doing just fine without line breeding for genetically superior serpents......

So I will say it again.....
Someone start these lines so our great grand children can reap the benefits because we won't see it in our lifetime.....Just my opinions guys......I am happy with what I have.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John,
Getting baby thayeri to eat is easy as pie. IMO it's as simple as giving them a moist hide. I had 100% of three clutches eating within 10 days. None are from Cherry's bloodlines.

Joe, Can you elaborate on the moist hide idea and give some details...I would love to hear it.

>>Joe, Can you elaborate on the moist hide idea and give some details...I would love to hear it.

Make sure they have access to moist sphagnum in a hide box. butter dishes or small deli cups with a 1" hole in the lid is what I use.
It was something I found when I raised Gray-bands and found it also works for thayeri. I keep it off the heat BTW, in my baby cages that's usually around upper 70's to low 80's (morning to afternoon).

Last year I happened to be communication with Jim Smith and he reported a few stubborn hold outs. I asked him if he had moist hides for them and he did not. Later he e-mailed me back and reported problem solved.

Obviously there can other factors, but this one is important.

>>It was something I found when I raised Gray-bands and found it also works for thayeri. I keep it off the heat BTW, in my baby cages that's usually around upper 70's to low 80's (morning to afternoon).

Joe,
Are you stating that the entire hatchling enclosure is from upper 70s to low 80s? Or are you saying keep the moist hide off the heat?

My moist hides are the length of the enclosure on one side....So that the hatchling has moist/hot on the back end and moist/cool on the front end of the enclosure.....there is also a top to bottom gradient as well........
I always had better results with letting the hatchlings know it is Summer by raising the hot end to around 85 or 90......My snake room is at 72.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>>Or are you saying keep the moist hide off the heat?
>>

In my enclosures there is a dry hide on the heat tape and the moist hide off the tape.

>>I always had better results with letting the hatchlings know it is Summer by raising the hot end to around 85 or 90......My snake room is at 72.........

Warm end of my enclosures ranges from 86 to 90 in the summer, until it finally starts to cool off here in central Texas.

My incubation temps were higher than usual this year, average clutch went 60 days. I was also drier than normal in the incubation chambers (gallon jars) and had 100% hatch with NO kinks or dead in the egg.

I did have fertility problems however.

>>Warm end of my enclosures ranges from 86 to 90 in the summer, until it finally starts to cool off here in central Texas.

Same here.....But South Texas for me.....lol

>>My incubation temps were higher than usual this year, average clutch went 60 days. I was also drier than normal in the incubation chambers (gallon jars) and had 100% hatch with NO kinks or dead in the egg.

I had 2 dead in the egg this year.....

>>I did have fertility problems however.

Same here......I think I am going to warm the males up to room temperature a few weeks earlier than the females next Spring......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>John,
>> Getting baby thayeri to eat is easy as pie. IMO it's as simple as giving them a moist hide. I had 100% of three clutches eating within 10 days. None are from Cherry's bloodlines.

I agree......the moist hides work well with the zonata I have too..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I have a small clutch of thayeri hatching right now I will try it. I'm too stuborn to try tweaking my husbandry, I just don't think it's to blame for everything.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

LOL!! OK, I gotcha LOL!! I do think we have seen improvements in feeding responses of certain species over the years due to "Line breeding" or "selective breeding" if you will. I do know of breeders who do not use picky feeders in their breeding stock regardless of how screamer they are specifically for that reason. I do believe certain localities of certain species like alterna and even cornsnakes have feeding preferences that can be inherited by their offspring. A robust five foot Okeetee locality corn may have a preference towards rodents more than a gracile keys locality corn. Same with a more robust eastern locality alterna vs. more diminutive western locality alterna IMO. However, they ain't dogs and I agree it will be MANY years before snakes that eat preferential prey will be "developed" with certainty LOL!! Heck, why breed snakes with a preference for rodents? I would go for a snake with a preference for hotdogs, or canned cat food LOL!!

John so you don't think any of the snakes you lost had any internal disorders? No liver problems or birth defects that you can not see? I don't think all their deaths are your fault. It sounds like you go above and beyond to take great care of your snakes!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>John so you don't think any of the snakes you lost had any internal disorders? No liver problems or birth defects that you can not see? I don't think all their deaths are your fault. It sounds like you go above and beyond to take great care of your snakes!

Hmmm...could be....I am sure some have diseases or disorders as any other animal.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John, I think you can TRY to change it. It MAY be husbandry related, so I feel you should make the effort. Its the right thing to do if you are serious about your animals well being and their successful interaction with their environment, regardless if in captivity. Still, try as you may you will still have problems and failures, just like nature does IMO. As far as commenting on your the moneymakers and fly-by-nighters, well thats too complicated of a subject to address on a forum IMO. All I can say is there is good and bad at ALL levels of the hobby/industry at ALL experience levels/length of time in the hobby/industry.

When the majority of my snakes are flourishing, but there is one little dude who is having to be hand fed to keep him going, I am thinking it is not my husbandry, but something with this one snake. I have raised all sorts of animals and rarely there is at least one who is runty, slow, just not as vigorous as the others, even though it has gotten the exact same husbandry as the robust ones. These "special needs" babies usually wind up being special pets, but never breeders.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

It happens in nature, so how can it be completely avoided in captivity? Its not always a husbandry issue IMO that causes these defects, poor feeding responses, etc.

No offense, but first you have to identify the cause. For example, You are correct that nest sites in nature are not always perfect, but neither is incubation in captivity. Lets get down to brass tacks and identify the cause of dead in the egg full term hatchlings, or kinked hatchlings, then you can continue to speculate on how much of that happens in the wild. You may even be able to speculate about when and where such occurrences are more likely to take place and under what circumstances. Maybe he's incubating his eggs too wet??

BTW Baby Gray-banded kingsnakes do indeed eat more than just lizards both in the wild and captivity.

>>It happens in nature, so how can it be completely avoided in captivity? Its not always a husbandry issue IMO that causes these defects, poor feeding responses, etc.

Joe, I dont think you CAN always identify the cause. It just happens. Why did the female lay her eggs in a very wet depression next to a creek in the wild as opposed to the rotten log with perfect moisture conditions right next to it? Why did the female lay her eggs in the water bowl as opposed to the damp nest box provided to her in captivity? I think we assume that these animals are infallible in their choices in nature. However, I think there are "dumb" snakes for whatever reason, even in nature. They make bad decisions that will lead to the demise of those genetics and behaviours if repeated. I feel defects do happen because of genetic issues AND incubation issues. Its not all or nothing IMO and you cannot explain away all these problems all the time based on husbandry. Same with non feeders. You made an earlier post to John about your three clutches of thayeri having 100 percent feeding success using a moist hide. What about ALL the clutches you produced and provided moist hides too over the years during your breeding efforts? Still 100 percent? Has this husbandry technique provided you 100 percent success on ALL clutches you produced since you began using it?

>> I think we assume that these animals are infallible in their choices in nature.

Maybe you think that, but I do not.

>>>However, I think there are "dumb" snakes for whatever reason, even in nature.

>>>They make bad decisions that will lead to the demise of those genetics and behaviours if repeated.

In captivity WE are in control. This thread is about personal responsibility to supply the animals with utmost care in captivity, not throwing them in a plastic box and rationalizing it by saying, oh they die in nature too!

>>>I feel defects do happen because of genetic issues AND incubation issues.

Of course they do!

>>>Its not all or nothing IMO and you cannot explain away all these problems all the time based on husbandry.

Who is doing that? See what I wrote above. These are LIVING BEINGS. Care for them! If an animal dies there is a reason. So far all you have offered is speculation - find the cause first, then you can try to correct it.

>>>>Same with non feeders. You made an earlier post to John about your three clutches of thayeri having 100 percent feeding success using a moist hide.

There is a reason a snake won't eat. Sometimes it is because we don't offer the right food source. It's almost always about support, even if it is some sickness or disease, temp, humidity, etc. that we don't recognize. If it is in captivity it is OUR FAULT.

>>>>What about ALL the clutches you produced and provided moist hides too over the years during your breeding efforts? Still 100 percent? Has this husbandry technique provided you 100 percent success on ALL clutches you produced since you began using it?

I can get baby thayeri or alterna eating even w/o a moist hide, but it makes it easier IMO. Here's a document we wrote, a collection of tips. You see, snakes don't always want to eat the same thing. If a clutch of babies hatches out and all want to eat something different, that could be a beneficial trait for species survival. Snakes have lived in nature over 65 million years, and I have fossil verts to prove it from the Aguja formation of west Texas. One year I had a clutch of Gray-bands, 6 animals in the clutch. Each one PREFERRED a different type of lizard. I know you like to speculate, why don't you tell me why that is?

www.kingsnake.com/alterna/hatchlin.html

>>www.kingsnake.com/alterna/hatchlin.html

That is some great info Joe...

Here's something I put together over the years......It has many of the same techniques as your old alternapage document......

http://coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com/Care_Sheets.html
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think I need to add the change of scenery tip. You know when you've exhausted every tip known and you send the snake to someone else and they call you and tell you it took a live pink right out of the box. Explain that one to me please!

>>I think I need to add the change of scenery tip. You know when you've exhausted every tip known and you send the snake to someone else and they call you and tell you it took a live pink right out of the box. Explain that one to me please!

Change of scenery or a bumpy road trip (airplane turbulence....lol).......I have no idea why, but sometimes it works.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

So you guys do get picky feeders! I thought your enclosiers solved all that, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>So you guys do get picky feeders! I thought your enclosiers solved all that, lol.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

Nope, that was written for guys like you, see the one about the pinky pump?? LMAO

>>>>So you guys do get picky feeders! I thought your enclosiers solved all that, lol.
>>>>-----
>>>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>>>> J Sierra
>>
>>Nope, that was written for guys like you, see the one about the pinky pump?? LMAO
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I can get them to eat too! I haven't owned a pinky pump in over twenty years, lol. But I'm not afraid of using one. I am technically inclined. I have never injured a snake using one, go figure? Everyone just reads what they want to read and misses the wole point.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

My point was husbandry is NOT always the issue with things like kinking, picky feeders, etc. It happens in nature as well as captivity for WHATEVER reasons. However, for some reason it appears to be taken that I advocate bad care or lack of concern for captive animals because they die in nature, so its OK if they die in captivity. That is NOT what I am advocating. I feel you should do everything you can for your animals, have care and compassion, and yes, treat them like the special living creatures they are. Still, some animals are destined not to survive. In nature or captivity. And IMO there ain't one neat husbandry trick to pull out the hat to solve that dilema. Enough said.

>>My point was husbandry is NOT always the issue with things like kinking, picky feeders, etc. It happens in nature as well as captivity for WHATEVER reasons. However, for some reason it appears to be taken that I advocate bad care or lack of concern for captive animals because they die in nature, so its OK if they die in captivity. That is NOT what I am advocating. I feel you should do everything you can for your animals, have care and compassion, and yes, treat them like the special living creatures they are. Still, some animals are destined not to survive. In nature or captivity. And IMO there ain't one neat husbandry trick to pull out the hat to solve that dilema. Enough said.

I think we all strive to do that Kevin......
I don't think you were insinuating otherwise man.....
Some animals ARE destined not to survive.....
There are many animals that have not had wild blood introduced to them in many, many years (thayeri, ruthveni, greeri, mex mex)....certainly this has had some ill affect. Sure cool aberrancies and such are occurring but who knows if they have such things as liver failure, conjunctive heart failure, asthma, cancer, etc.......WE NEVER KNOW what traits we are passing onto the next generation......Except visual traits.......

The picky feeder thing CAN be solved.......Husbandry IS the key there......In my honest opinion......

We are dealt with what we have......So line breeding for better traits would be very difficult to do since there aren't many lines to outcross with.......This line breeding can possibly be doing more harm than good with some animals like the Mexicana Complex......

I line bred a group of thayeri for 3 generations (97, 00 & 03) and never saw any ill effect visually......I did see a reduction in black pigment though....Why is it Montane snakes loose their black after a few generations of line breeding?

Again I got stuck on a tangent, but I think you know where I am coming from..........We can't see the unseen........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Thanks John. I am just posting my thoughts and opinions on the matter. I agree you can get HEALTHY neonates to feed relying solely on husbandry tactics. As long as no underlying health issues, its a matter of making the neonate comfortable and offering what it wants how it wants it.

As far as the lack of black, who knows? One concept I heard was that the animals are no longer subjected to natural sunlight, which may cause decreases in melanin required to protect from the suns damaging UV rays. Analogous to tanning in humans. In the case of montane snakes, I would think the opposite could be in effect. The darker coloration may no longer be needed to absorb more heat in their cooler montane habitats since we artificially supply adequate heat gradients in captivity. Therefore they may not need the darker coloration to achieve required body temperatures while in captivity?

I'm reading exactly what you're writing, maybe you should read it to - LMAO again!

>>I haven't owned a pinky pump in over twenty years>>I have never injured a snake using one, go figure?

>>So you guys do get picky feeders! I thought your enclosiers solved all that, lol.

I openly admit that some hatchlings are picky feeders.....I have been breeding reptiles since 1997 and I started this document back then and it grew into what it is now.......I honestly can say I did not keep snakes like I do now...that is....My husbandry has improved and I can get those stubborn feeders to feed.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

that's could be another support issue IMO John. We have to offer the right food item and the animal has to be otherwise healthy and in a proper set-up. My boy won't eat broccoli, but I'm not going to let him starve to death, so Pizza and Hamburgers are on the menu. He's picky, but I have to support him. So that makes picky an excuse for lazy humans.

>>that's could be another support issue IMO John. We have to offer the right food item and the animal has to be otherwise healthy and in a proper set-up. My boy won't eat broccoli, but I'm not going to let him starve to death, so Pizza and Hamburgers are on the menu. He's picky, but I have to support him. So that makes picky an excuse for lazy humans.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I understand your logic, and based on my own experiences I would venture that the one stubborn snake is looking for some condition that the average snake setup doesn't provide. I used to believe it was the snake, but more and more I am thinking it is my failure to provide the right conditions for each individual.

At one point my formula for keeping rosyboas was not exactly optimum for what I would use on kingsnakes, yet I tried keeping them the same. When I finally changed the husbandry for the rosies, it was like a waterfall effect. The picky rosies weren't picky anymore, the thin rosies bulked up. Keep in mind some rosies thrived in either conditions, but with a husbandry change the "weak" ones were tough as nails all of a sudden.
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Mark

Mark, how can it be your fault if the animal had a genetic defect that caused it to be born without a stomach?
What if failure to survive was due to a condition such as that that would express itself just as easily in nature as in your collection? In a case like that would you still feel its your fault? I am not saying you shouldnt tweak things to find the optimum conditions for your animals to due their best. Thats a no brainer!! However, there can be instances where no matter what you do, some neonates will not survive. Sudden death in adults may be the same uncontrollable issues. What if they had a genetic heart defect that when they reached a certain age they anurismed out and died? Could have happened if the snake made the same age in the wild as in your collection. Your husbandry or the conditions in the wild would have absolutely NOTHING to do with the situation. In fact, there has even been discussion that some neonates may just be decoys. Sacrificial animals so the remainder of the clutch can escape from the nest and make it. It may be their destinys not to survive!!!

No doubt there can be those individuals that are physically compromised, but those are far and few between in our collections. In my opinion anyway.

Most non-feeding babies are looking for a type of prey or a certain set of conditions. Not all babies will necessarily be the same in that regard, like Joe Forks mentioned.
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Mark

>>No doubt there can be those individuals that are physically compromised, but those are far and few between in our collections. In my opinion anyway.
>>
>>Most non-feeding babies are looking for a type of prey or a certain set of conditions. Not all babies will necessarily be the same in that regard, like Joe Forks mentioned.
>>-----
>>Mark

are you running a death trap over there? Just how many snakes are you losing every year? It must be a significant number for you to imagine all these theories.

Joe, I am NOT running a neonate deathcamp at my house LOL!!! I have been pretty successfull in getting my neonates to feed, albeit I mainly work with corns. However, I have gotten alternas to successfully feed as well, and non feeding non-corn neonates I have acquired from other breeders. I am ABSOLUTELY not disagreeing that husbandry issues MUST be looked at when dealing with a picky or non feeding baby, or even adult animals. And yes, husbandry changes, prey choice changes, etc. has worked successfully for me in the past and present in enticing these poor feeders to begin feeding robustly. But I will admit that I have lost a baby or two over the years from non-feeding issues. I have lost adults for no apparent reasons as well. If I had to quess a percentage, I would guess honestly that it is less than 1 percent of all babies I have produced to date. Probably less than 0.5 percent of all older animals I have ever had in my collection. Some babies I produced would not feed no matter what tricks I tried, setup changes I made, etc. Those are the less than 1 percent I am referring to, and those are the ones that I based my statement of "to a degree" on. The 1 percenters are not the norm. However, they may have had internal issues or other non visual indicators that prevented them from wanting to thrive. I also feel these issues arise in nature as well. Jorge's example of finding a very thin and kinked wild caught neonate is an example. Even in nature these types of animals occur, so it does not surprise me they occur in captivitiy as well and may be non-husbandry related anomalies.

>>>>Even in nature these types of animals occur, so it does not surprise me they occur in captivity as well and may be non-husbandry related anomalies.

No problem with any of that Kevin. I agree they definitely do occur in captivity, but in my experience they are very rare, and they are the exception not the rule.

Back to my point though, what caused the kinks? Was it an incubation problem or was it genetic? Care to speculate? lol (sorry)

Joe, if referring to Jorge's WC neonate with the kink, I think it was probably husbandry, for lack of a better term in dealing with animals in nature. Momma snake probably made a bad decision on where she layed her clutch. Then again, maybe she made a great decision for 99.9 percent of the clutch to ensure hatch rate but that meant one baby would get screwed by virtue of its location in the lay area?? The kinking could also be related to a completely random mutation, act of God, or anyother cosmic mishap. Who is to truly say?? Sometimes mysteries occur that we have no explanation for, regardless of the rarity. I have scratched my head a time or two with repsect to hatchlings, etc. Why did this one snake die in the egg malformed?? Why out of 20 eggs apparently set up in identical conditions did this one egg get screwed? It may have been the slightest difference in moisture or temperature due to my efforts setting up the last clutch at 10PM on a Tuesday night. Then again, it may not have been and it was that tiny percentage destined not to make it for whatever reason.

In nature, there are clutches laid in all manner of nesting sites. These animals have no control over weather. What if we have a 500 year flood and 99% of all the nesting sites of a certain species in a certain area are destroyed? But 1% choose a "so called bad nesting site" way up in a crevice where it was too hot, and a little too wet, and 50% of those clutches hatched. The other 50% were kinked and dead in the egg.

My point in all of this is just because an animal is kinked in nature doesn't mean it was supposed to be kinked. Maybe just maybe we can duplicate crappy conditions in our plastic boxes just like mother nature can supply some crappy conditions from year to year and place to place.

Further, my point is that if the cause of dead in the egg full term babies is incubating our eggs too wet (speculation), then we should be able to figure that out, avoid those conditions, and correct that problem through husbandry.

My biggest problems with your posts is that you are SPECULATING that because they occur in nature there is nothing we can do about it in captivity - that's why you keep getting replies from me. It's not that simple. Just because it happens in nature too, doesn't mean there isn't a specific cause that we can avoid through proper husbandry. Find the cause first.

Joe, 100% in agreement. In your examples, you are correct. There is a variable or set of variables that could have been corrected to have prevented the problem. And I agree that these are the things as herpers we should strive to eliminate/correct in our captive collections for sure to make sure these anomalies do not occur.

Joe, I have thought quite a bit at an example to show my point of view and I think I have one. Lets take amelanism. Its a great trait for some herpers to have been discovered, but in the wild its probably not a great trait. In fact, its probably a death sentence to the neonates exhibiting the trait due to lack of camoflage and the fact they will be seen and eaten first by predators. Amel neonates in nature are MUCH less likely to survive to become breedable adults. Thats why you dont see this trait very much in nature. It has nothing to do with husbandry, lay sites, flooding. Its genetic, and most likely means death and lack of success for the animals that display the trait. No matter how you tweak the husbandry issues (and I mean everything from diet, to housing, to brumation, to incubation, etc.), it can still appear in nature and captivity. This is a non correctable genetic mutation that adversly affects the well being of the neonate. Sure, the neonate may be able to survive, just liked a kinked baby, but not likely looking at the odds of their occurrence in nature!!!

Still missing my point. Amel is a KNOWN random genetic trait. We know it's genetic, and not husbandry related.

We DON'T know that about kinks, full term dead in egg, and many other defects. Could be genetic, could be diet, could be temps, humidity, etc, find the cause.

Now see my point?

>>Now see my point?

If you don't see it now, I give up.... have to go give my snakes some crappy husbandry lol

Joe, once again I see and agree with your points. They are valid for sure. We may one day find out these anomalies like dead in egg and kinking to be genetic and uncontrollable. Until then I agree we should look at the husbandry to see if correctable.

it has been shown to be correctable. Many years ago.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Dobry, I am not trying to be purposefully argumentative. The point I was simply trying to make is that EVERY possible affliction to plaque herpers with respect to the animals they keep CANNOT all be blamed on husbandry issues!! There is no 100% lock stock guarantee they can be, regardless of how remote or possible that may be. That is simply IMPOSSIBLE. Many, heck even MOST, can probably be corrected. On that I agree wholeheartedly. However, there are some, once again regardless of their remoteness, that will NEVER be corrected regardless of husbandry. The chances of it NOT being husbandry related could be more remote than the chance of someone winning the lottery. Still, people win the lottery. It happens plain and simple with no explanation than pure randomness. No skills, no husbandry issues, just plain luck it occurred. Based on your statements, I feel like the cure for cancer or diabetes should have been found by now with as much effort put to it. After all, its simply a husbandry issue, right??

seriously though, cancer is husbandry related! LOL! There is no cure for cancer, only preventative measures. It is a breakdown of a working system. All things that get really old and survive all other things will die of cancer of some sort.

Also if there was a cure, the machine would hide it. Cancer is a huge business. That is why all the medical advancements are about developing better diagnostics for early prevention. Your genetically predisposed to have a high probability of this or that cancer. So if you increase your risk though environmental exposure (husbandry) you end up getting cancer sooner, or your probability goes up. So how do you stop something from wearing down and breaking? You can't, and thus cancer cannot be cured.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

OK, I will bite. Cancer is husbandry related. But you even concede it is NOT husbandry curable. So, by deductive reasoning is it correct to agree that all problems in herpetoculture are NOT husbandry curable?

is there really anyone in here that thinks EVERYTHING is husbandry related? Honestly Kevin, I don't think there is.

What we are saying for the umpteenth time, is that you CAN'T ARBITRARILY say that it is NOT related to husbandry w/o finding the cause of said affliction. Really, is that so hard to grasp?

Joe, maybe I am being too obstinate on my view. I am not disagreeing with you that husbandry is likely to blame for most of the woes that are experienced in our collections. Going back to the original post, I interepreted the poster as saying ALL/EVERYTHING/The Whole Enchilada of woes and problems that befall us in herpetoculture is beyond a doubt husbandry related and cannot be caused or blamed on anything else. I simply stated that IN MY OPINION, it is theoretically impossible for 100% to be blamed on husbandry. No way, no how. I will give you 99.999999% or greater it is husbandry related all day long, but I cannot give you 100% with absolute surity. The examples I gave with nature is that even nature cannot give 100% success rate with absolute surity, so how can we as simple keepers of natures gifts be so bold to claim we can?

everything, but I didn't take that literally, because I thought it was obvious that genetic defects can and do occur unrelated to husbandry lol.

I might start another arguement, but our husbandry is far from perfect, and in a lot of cases, it's not close to good enough. There's too much we don't know... still....

Well, I admit I took the post literally and read nothing inherent in it. So, my fault from that angle LOL!!

you know I was thinking about this. Yes we can always improve, yes we don't have all the answers. Yet I think that Our animals have a better chance to live out their lives and reach the reproductive stage and die of old age than those in nature! So this whole arguement seems kinda mute. If I were a snake I would choose a tub where I don't have to worry about every shadow, even that of my owm mom's sometimes. And meals are catered in just like i like them, fat and parasite free. True there's no cable to watch in those tubs, but I don't see them in nature either. What says the egg juggler?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Would you rather live in jail or have to make it on your own in the mountains?

What if the warden goes on vacation and lets you bask in your own stench for a week or two and doesn't give you fresh water?

After your oozie comment I'm wondering about your frontal lobe.

to funny joe
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Ok now I see what the lobe comment was about, lol. Well the problem is you are trying to equate snakes with humans. I think snakes live to eat and not be eaten and have sex. That's about it! They don't have family re-unions or plan weddings or anything else. They spend their entire lives looking for food and sex and trying not to be eaten. I may have left one or two things out but not much. So If I were an animal who just longed for these things alone I would be very happy in one of my tubs, YES! That is why I made the sarcastic comments about cable tv. Oh by the way I don't really have an oozie, just a semi-automatic.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

that your talking about "would" be so rare it is not even worth taking about. That is absolutely ridiculous! I cannot even believe your talking about snakes born without stomachs, like they are common or something, which would be provable by the way. Lets see the necropsy not any of this woulda coulda what if crap! Until then lets just deal with the facts please!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Not saying they are common, but not saying is completely unlikely, or at least some other similar type defect for whatever reason to occur. I gave Joe Forks an example of what I thought was a completely non-husbandry related genetic "defect", at least in nature. Its amelanism. Now, is amelanism in nature as unlikely as being born with cancer or no stomach?? Is it a good trait in nature?? Ponder that.

There are populations of rattlesnakes with a high percentage of albino's in central texas, where the rocks are white.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>There are populations of rattlesnakes with a high percentage of albino's in central texas, where the rocks are white.

And even patternless Western Diamond Backs.......

Just mutations that have "made it" and have become part of the population rather than being absorbed by other traits.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Exactly John, they "made it". Some non husbandry related defects also make it to adulthood and propogate. Some do not. Once again, a heart defect, failure to thrive, etc. just may not be related to husbandry issues. Some can be genetic or random regardless of what the parents ate, they ate, how they were incubated, housed, temp gradients subjected to, and so on!! Random flukes and mistakes that no husbandry can correct. Remote, highly unlikely, miniscule? Probably. Real? I think absolutely. And, per my point, even if infinitely remotely possible, the argument of husbandry can cure ALL woes is incorrect IMO.

>>>the argument of husbandry can cure ALL woes is incorrect IMO.

That was never my argument Kevin, and that certainly is not what my posts have been about. I've been jumping your case because you have afflictions that you ARBITRARILY say are not related to husbandry without proof.

OK, maybe my examples werent the best. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. I posted further below on your "if I may" post as to the point I am trying to make, bad examples and all. However, as a recap my point is that I interpreted the original poster of this whole thread as saying EVERY problem we encounter in captivitiy is husbandry related. I simply disagreed and said IMO its not theoretically possible for EVERY woe to be husbandry related. Nature does not give 100% success rate with the husbandry practices it uses, and neither should we be so bold to say we can in our collections. I would be willing to give you 99.99999 to the infinite power percent most can be cured or solved through husbandry, but I cannot agree to 100% with ABSOLUTE surity, bad examples given of why or not.

ok well as the OP i'll just say i was speaking of the 99.99% and NOT the 0.01%, geez i didnt/wouldnt think i needed to point that out! so my bad
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

no no, you're fine and I agree with that, our problem was a communication problem.

Agreed. DEFINITELY most was an interpretation and communication problem And I will admit to being obstinate to a fault LOL!! Must come with age creeping up on me a bit LOL!!

That's a good decision! But in nature those would likely not survive.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

As I mentioned in another post, I found a fresh hatchling Corn about 2 weeks ago. This baby had some decent sized kinks in it's back. After bringing it home I noticed it was very thin also. It probably hadn't eaten since it hatched. I gave it a pinky and it ate right away, no hesitation. I gave it another and wham! 2 days later I gave it another and yep it took it down, (they were tiny pinks). so would this little girl have survived if I had not taken her in? No one really knows but I suspect she was having trouble catching prey and could very well have starved. She was obviously very hungry. Also just the fact that I found a kinked baby in the wild is very interesting to say the least.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Wow, you mean you are not subjecting it to horrible captive conditions because it was going to die in nature, so that makes it OK to treat it poorly in captivity? LOL!!!

With cage size, I agree bigger is better. I have an infrared gun and can check the temps for my pyros anywhere in the big tubs. In the winter there will be spots in the mid 40's F all the way up to the mid 70's F. The snakes can choose what they want. They also have moist sphagnum moss hides in warm and cool areas, so they can choose that, too. These snakes seem to like things cooler. I think problems can arise if the snakes are kept too warm and can't get away to a cooler spot. It's like, how would we feel if we could not cool off on a hot day?

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

40's thru 70's yeah baby HAPPY SNAKES! i do back flips when i achieve gradients like that. but certainly practicality comes into play but simple things like your foil pan, ceramic plates, tiles, glass are generally about 5degrees cooler than ambient room temps so are moist hides. standing water is generally 10 degrees cooler than ambient room temps so just providing these can provide some gradients in smaller cages.
there are ALOT of ways to skin this cat.
what gets me is folks defending basic husbandry when EVERY snake keeper should realize temp.&humidity gradients are needed and can be achieved to a point in a rack of tubs. i cringe when i hear folks say things like oh i dont provide heat i keep my room at 82.00789 degrees then have problems and wonder why? or say things like my snake soaks in his waterbowl alot and not realize DUH the water is 72.00789 degrees, could the snake be utilizing the only temp.gradient provided?
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

When it is 95 F in the shade. I don't have air conditioning so the water bowl is their version of getting in the pool. I have even given them frozen gel packs wrapped in a towel for a cool spot on blisteringly hot days.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

The problem is how we thing, in captivity, we think of hot to cool. that is snakes, reptiles, need heat, then cool them. This is backwards.

Reptiles, use cool to hot. that is, their base is cool year around, then use heat as needed. But they always return to cool, even in the summer(if they can)

As you may know, I have huge problems with the terms brumate or hibernate. Why you ask, thats easy, I am a field herper first and I have herped much of the world.

Take boas and python. Most consider hibernating temps in the low sixties, hmmmmmmmmmmm I have found three species of boas and over five species of pythons, CROSSING THE ROAD at temps from the high forties to the low sixties. What! they were hibernating in the road? hahahahahahahahaha

On our field studies, we commonly find all manner of snakes out and active with both body temps and air temps in the forties. So what is 55F, a day at the spa? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When I say a temp range, the key is the base, the lower temps. yet everybody only worries about the upper temps. how odd is that. As I mention over and over, I know of no natural area that has high temps of 82.54646 F All areas these animals come from include higher then preferred and lower then preferred and the animals work the temps they need AT THE TIME.

Simply put, if you allow that, the snakes take over and do what they do, if you tell them what to do, then its all on you. I am not so smart, I think snakes know what they want, I am only guessing. Cheers

...perfect set up????? Well if you do, then after you pat yourself on the back, just lift the lid or open the door and let your animal decide for his/herself......Why.... he may wander about for a bit but surely he'll return to his little eden you've set up for him...Won't he???
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I know you know, but the perfect set up does not exist, nor was that Frank's point. It was about choices.

Here's another I know you've seen this; You feed your snake and think it's headed to lay on the heat tape or basking spot, and indeed sometimes they do, but not all the time! Other times they seek the coolest spot in the cage with that big ole lump, what's up with that?

No , we don't have all the answers nor do we have perfect set-ups and the snakes can't speak to us, so we offer choices because it's the best we can do.

>>>No , we don't have all the answers nor do we have perfect set-ups and the snakes can't speak to us, so we offer choices because it's the best we can do.

>id just ad its the LEAST we can do for animals we love.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

LOL! I think snakes are like servo mechanized torpedoes. They want to move forward and not turn around and go back whence they came. If you let your snake out in a big circular room he might find his way back to his little habitat, but usually they just keep on truckin further and further away.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

back when I kept nothing but gray-bands I'd keep a 5 gallon bucket full of rocks (from West Texas) in the closet. More than once escapees found their way into that bucket of rocks. True story.