Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read where it's ok to feed a bearded dragon a pinkie mouse every so often because of the calcium in the bones. So I gave it a try and my beardie chomped it down like it was candy. I was just wondering if anyone else feeds pinkies to their dragons and if so how often. Also my beardie just turned a year old and is already 18 inches and 450 grams. He looks fat, yet solid. Is that a normal weight for a year old dragon?
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There's a lot of varience in weight by age. But, yours is a good weight for a year old.

Pinkies are very high in fat so I only feed them to sick animals. Some feed them to females during egg laying season but I've never found the need to.

If you're going to feed them, make them a very small part of the overall diet. Obesity can be an issue with captive beardies.

The weight sounds about right, but hard to tell as some dragons 'wear' the weight better than others. A couple good pictures showing the dragon from above and side, will make it easier to tell if its a healthy weight for it.

Pinky mice are fine as an occasional treat but shouldn't be frequently fed. I rarely feed my dragon pinky mice, maybe once a year if that.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

I feed mine a fuzzie every now and then when they were still growing.... I supposed it won't harm them... Protein is protein whether they are from bugs, rodents, chickens, or cattle. They are the same chains of amino acid. The only difference is the concentration of the protein. You can get a lot more protein, and also fat, a rodent and cow. And I supposed feeding them to vary the diet would be alright as long as you don't do it too much. After I feed one of two of the fuzzies, they usually get salad for 4, 5 days straight. By the end of the salad days, they were mad for bugs.... lol But, for quite sometime now, I haven't been feeding them any at all, and do just fine the same.

But there are different type of muscle meat, depending on what the animals how the animals use them. For example, lighter-colored, springy meat is use for quick sudden movement. that's why a lot of bird meat is lighter in color compared to cattle and deer. The muscle meat on the legs of frogs is also have lighter color...

Maybe 6 months or so ago reptiles magazine had an article about protein. The biggest thing the author stressed was that all protein is not the same. And that different animals are designed to process different kinds of protein. The article was primarily about gout in reptiles and that it is caused by feeding the wrong protein.

So I'd just be careful about feeding too much animal protein when they likely get it rarely in their natural diet.

"Reptile Magazine" sometimes don't give out accurate information IMO. That's why you got to read who the author is.... They get gout by eating a source of food that is too rich in protein, like mice, and eating it too often. That's why gout is so common among people in the U.S. because we eat a lot meat...much more than other countries. Perhaps eating meat, and lots of it, is sign of being Americans! lol Cheeseburgers, steaks, fried chickens, and on and on....

Gout is one of the most common disease here in the U.S., and one of the most misunderstood. When you say gout, people often look at you like... What do you have, again? lol

High protein diets are one of the causes of gout, that and long term dehydration which prevents uric acid from being flushed from the system. Thus uric crystals end up forming in the joints which are very painful.

Proteins are very different from each other, especially when comparing animal proteins to plant or insect. Protein is also present in more than just muscle tissue. Too much of the wrong type of proteins in the diet (such as too much animal protein) can lead to various diseases, including gout. Feeding animal protein (or even insect protein) to strictly vegetarians such as green iguanas has lead to kidney failure and liver issues (probably gout as well, or labeled as 'fatty liver disease')

Bearded dragons are omnivorous but require a higher amount of vegetation in their diet compared to 'meat' in the form of insects once adults though I expect in the wild, they will eat whatever they can get with the least effort. So if offered animal protein frequently they are likely to eat it, may even prefer it, even if long term effects such as gout, will hit them once they are older.

As for humans, I think our biggest problem is not just eating more red meat than is good for us...its eating way too much 'fast food' and high levels of sodium. North America consumes far too much '5 min or less' meals...we need to learn how to cook unprocessed foods again. Heck, the hunter probably eats better than most of us...fresh deer meat isn't likely to be soaking in salty water or considered 'seasoned'...at least till alot of salt is added.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Hmmm.... I thought animal protein were all the same; it's just the concentration of certain stuff that makes the difference, depending on how the animals use the muscles. For example, avian meat has a lot of uric acid in the muscle and cattle has a lot of iron because they stand most of the time.....

I am no expert on protein but there are differences in all protein and protein is part of many things in the body, not just muscles. The venom of snakes and other animals are made up of various protein strands which act differently. Protein if I recall correctly is a complex molecule used to 'build' many different things, not just muscles.

Diet and the use particular structures protein makes up in a body (be it plant, animal, insect, bird, fish) do cause variations even if the basic 'building blocks' within protein may be identical, just in different combinations. I just know for certain there are differences in proteins from different animal groups. Just the color differences (I don't know for sure if 'red' muscle is due to extra use, or just has more blood/iron contact. Seems to me it must have more to do than just iron content. (though that does play a part, as somebody constantly low in iron will have paler skin and gums. But iron is present in vegetation...maybe not as high as in muscle meat. Unless typical chicken breasts from domesticated chickens who don't fly, is white simply due to lack of use...compared to say wild game birds. Though I seem to remember the wild partridge I ate as a kid (or roughed grouse is it is also called) had white breast meat anyway, but a bit more 'gamey' taste than typical chicken.

Oh and there are special enzymes that are needed to break down different forms of protein, which is also why vegetarian only reptiles/animals can't process animal proteins effectively.

Below is a website that explains things a bit more clearly...about how proteins are different in plants and animals even if they use similar amino acids. (kind of how DNA is different, even though they are basically made from the same 'blocks'). ALso animal digestive systems are designed for one, the other or both (in different combinations) so a mostly or strictly vegetarian animal just can't metabolize animal protein and vise versa. Omnivores are better at it but a diet that is too high in the other, against their natural needs, throws things off in the long run.

www.anapsid.org/kidney.html
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

I've learned a lot from that site.... That's where most of my knowledge comes from. In the article I think Melissa Kaplan is talking about plant and animal protein and how other condition can bring about renal failure and gout, eventually.... I've known about her for years, and I know she has a good head of math and science. I hear her father is even much more brilliant than her. What can I say? She's a Jewish girl! Well...part Jewish! [chuckle]

...and part of my knowledge about nutrition comes from reading a book on nutrition from UC Davis....

Melissa does have good information on her site, especially about green iguanas. As for my knowledge about proteins..its from many sources but mostly in relation to reptiles.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Like anything else use the pinkies sparingly.

Not a staple food source.

Rinse the pinkies thoroughly before they are feed to remove any fecal matter on the pinkie before ingestion.
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Here are a few pictures I took this morning. He weighed a whopping 486 grams.

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1.2 Chihuahua's
0.1 Cockatiel
1.1 Normal BCI Colombian Boa
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Woma Python
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Hypo Everglades Rat Snake
0.1 Mexican Black King snake
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1.0 Sunglow Motley Corn Snake
1.0 Coral Snow Corn Snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula
0.0.2 Emporer Scorpion
0.0.1 Ghost Knife
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He looks very healthy! Looks just like mine...except not as colorful. I have a yellow one also, but she's not as bright as yours.

That's how people should look also, not stick-like figure like supermodel. That's why so many people now have bulimia and anorexia. A lot of disease like high cholesterol and diabete is cause by genetics not eating too much. That's a common misconception and myth. If you the genes for it, even exercising is not enough. You have to take pills for high cholesterol and inject insulin into your body if you have diabete....

I agree, a lot of it is based on genetics.
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1.2 Chihuahua's
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1.1 Normal BCI Colombian Boa
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Woma Python
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake
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0.1 Mexican Black King snake
1.0 Sunglow Corn Snake
1.0 Sunglow Motley Corn Snake
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You know that's why I give the as big a space I can.... this way they can walk around and exercise, so they will have stronger muscle. I also give them something to climb and cling on up high when they sleep, so they develop stronger muscles.

You know? You have a very nice bearded!

Why are his feet purple? Do you keep him on colored sand?

He may be a little over weight..the fat pads on his head are quite pronounced and he does have a thick tail near the base...I would keep him around 450g unless he grows more length..but overall he looks a good weight to me.

I have a female about the same length who weighs 475g or around there. Haven't been able to weigh her in awhile due to my scale breaking...(dropped it and now its totally screwed up...waiting for a sale to get a digital one.)
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Yeah I got him on purple calci-sand which I'm going to replace very soon.
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1.2 Chihuahua's
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1.1 Normal BCI Colombian Boa
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Woma Python
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yeah, best to get rid of that stuff...not safe at all if ingested. Plain paper towel or newsprint is a cheap way to go, or washed children's playsand, if you like having sand in the cage.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

See this is where I'm confused. Many caresheets say it's ok to use calcisand because it is digestible and the reptile will benefit from the calcium absortion. Whereas playsand is not digestible and can cause impaction.
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They calci sand clumps together inside the stomach, though, and cause impaction. There are medical reports of this by many vets. You can google for them....

Ok thanks. But I assume the same goes for playsand.
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0.1 Mexican Black King snake
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Yes, it can happen with play sand as with other substrate. In fact, I know someone whose bearded die from gut impaction from swallowing too much play sand. But the Calci-sand clump together when it gets wet. 'this is what happen inside the stomach. You try a little experiment by pouring water on it. Yu will see they will clump together.

I've always kept all my health dragons on children's play sand without an issue. You should just make sure there isn't a silica warning on the bag. Silica sand is crushed rock with sharp corners. Natural sand has smooth corners and doesn't cause a problem if a little is ingested. If husbandry conditions are right a dragon would never eat any substrate intentionally so your only concern is the little that might be stuck to food.

You have to check out the sand in your area. I bought sand at Home Depot once and it was extremely dusty and had foreign material in it. I now get all my sand from Toys R Us. It is very fine, dustless, and clean with no pebbles or foreign material.

I took in 2 Trapelus Savignii that were kept on blue sand. They and everything in their cage was covered with blue dust. I would have to back the assumption that their lungs were filled with blue dust as well.

A couple pictures, some of my enclosures, and a Trepelus Savignii covered with blue dust, after and before. (I had already cleaned the cage furniture)

There is alot of misconceptions out there about calcium based sand being digestible. The grains are too large to break down in the guts of dragons, most reptiles actually so do not work as an additional calcium source. All calcium powders designed for reptile use are a very fine powder, thus can be absorbed into the bloodstream must more effectively than coarse sand.

Some time ago, a poster posted an experiment he did (or had a friend do) in a lab while at school. I wish I could find this article or post...but at the time I didn't think to book mark it and its been years since I read it, or it may have been a chat I heard it in. What was done is a measured amount of calcium based sand was put into acid of a certain strength, equal to human stomach acid I believe. It was let in this acid for 24 hours or several days (can't remember how long he kept it in) then the acid was drained off and tested. He found the strength of the acid was noticeably reduced by the addition of calcium (calcium being a 'base'...it weakened the acid). Once the calcium sand dried, he weighed it and found no significant change in total mass from what he originally added.

The fact the calcium didn't break down at all in acid, or very little is a good indication if plenty is eaten by a dragon, it won't break down fast enough in the stomach before its moved into the intestine...where it will be too large to be absorbed by the intestinal lining. So the dragon won't get any or extremely little benefit from consuming the calcium.

So, giving the cost of calcium sand, its far more beneficial to the dragon to buy calcium powder and dust insects, than have calcium based sand as an additional source of calcium.

Children's playsand can also cause impaction as well but it is not as likely as it is with calcium based sands. As calcium neutralizes acid, clumps and is coarse grained (some are smooth, others rather rough...but all have large grains, as big as sand or bigger, from what I can tell by looking at bags of the stuff in stores) it has a far greater chance to cause impaction, especially if husbandry conditions aren't optimal. Children's playsand becomes more of a risk to cause impaction when husbandry conditions aren't optimal...such as basking temperatures too low, insufficient hydration, poor diet etc. With proper temperatures and hydration and a good healthy diet, the chances of play sand to cause impaction, its greatly reduced.

I personally don't use children's playsand, preferring the ease of cleaning of paper towels and plastic table cloth over the mess of sand (not to mention the pain of lugging bags of sand every couple of months). Thus, I feel its more a personal choice whether you like the looks of sand over something more simple like paper towel. Or for a more natural look a sand/dirt/soil mix which takes a bit more care to maintain properly but can work well (though black soil often leaves a dirty looking dragon).

Wow, this has been so enlightening since I'm mostly a snake guy. I will definitely swap out my calci-sand this week, but at this point I'm just not sure if I want to use play sand or newspaper. Thanks again, you've all been so helpful.
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1.2 Chihuahua's
0.1 Cockatiel
1.1 Normal BCI Colombian Boa
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Woma Python
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Hypo Everglades Rat Snake
0.1 Mexican Black King snake
1.0 Sunglow Corn Snake
1.0 Sunglow Motley Corn Snake
1.0 Coral Snow Corn Snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula
0.0.2 Emporer Scorpion
0.0.1 Ghost Knife
Assorted Tropical Fish

Ok, I just got rid of the calci-sand and replaced it with newspaper. It doesn't look as bad as I thought.
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1.2 Chihuahua's
0.1 Cockatiel
1.1 Normal BCI Colombian Boa
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Woma Python
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Hypo Everglades Rat Snake
0.1 Mexican Black King snake
1.0 Sunglow Corn Snake
1.0 Sunglow Motley Corn Snake
1.0 Coral Snow Corn Snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula
0.0.2 Emporer Scorpion
0.0.1 Ghost Knife
Assorted Tropical Fish