Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Frank actually got me thinking about this some time back when he mentioned casting off eggs as evidence of not having a proper nest or choice of nesting spots. While the importance of a proper nest is critical, inherent behavior also plays a role. The snakes also have to have the instinct to nest properly.

My artificial nests, though not as swank as Frank's (I love the glass idea BTW) are widely utilized however I've noted that many animals that are derived from long term captive lineages no longer "nest" in their nests. That is they no longer coil around their eggs forming a nice clutch. Instead, they crawl around in it and deposit their eggs as they go.

By the same token, when I started keeping and breeding snakes in the early 70's I often had wild caught snakes that would lay in captivity. More often than not they failed to use the crappy nest box I provided (filled with of moist shredded newsprint) but they would almost invariably be found coiled around their eggs forming a nice a tight ball. At very least I found tight balls of eggs indicating that they coiled around them as they laid them. To me, this indicates that these wild snakes exhibited nesting behavior / instinct even in the absence of an acceptable nest. This is in stark contrast to observations of long-term captive lineages. Given this, I don't think that all failures to properly nest can be attributed to limited choices or poor husbandry. Sometimes its because we're working with animals that are descended from others that never would have reproduced in the first place had we not interceded for them. This starts with cutting eggs for neonates that are too weak to pip to salvaging eggs of females who lack proper nesting instinct.

In keeping with this, I've also raised blue rams (Apistogramma Ramerzii). These are great little south American cichlids with interesting breeding and parenting behaviors however, because it proved more economical for breeders to take fry away from the parents and raise them artificially most fish you purchase today no longer exhibit these behaviors and this remains the case with individual animals no matter how well you keep them or how many options you provide.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Cool post Tony!! I would have to agree that it is probably not just general captive breeding that causes these animals to lose their instincts (domestication in general), but probably allowing animals that have bad survival skills continue their genetics in captive conditions. Same with cutting eggs. The weak offspring would expire in nature, so this behaviour or inability would die off too in the population.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

So which of your captive snakes has bad survival skills? You wouldn't know - they don't use those much of those skills in a sweaterbox.

You guys and your "bad" snakes, lol.
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Mark

What does FR run a university? Take the little Kinked hatchling that I found because nature is not perfect. It looked famished and may not have lived too much longer if I had not taken it home and fed it. It ate voraciously by the way. Now I know I'm just assuming things here but it looks like the kinks were effecting the snakes mobility which in turn effected it's hunting skills. Now in nature that animals surely would have died but now it's in my breeding program, maybe let's say it is for arguement. What if now I begin to pass down those kinked genes to all it's offspring? It was supposed to die in nature. Survival of the fittest. So in this case my husbandry was actually better than natures. Which we could get into why did that WC baby have kinks in the first place? Did it's mother not choose a good nest spot? Who knows right? Oh that's right FR knows and I'm sure he will tell us, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

hatchlings are indeed genetic. So far nobody has shown this to be true! All the evidence shows that these kinked babies are from environmental factors during development, not genetic factors! You know like if your mom smokes crack, you will be jacked up. If the environment is too dry, too wet or whatever the eggs suffer.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>hatchlings are indeed genetic. So far nobody has shown this to be true! All the evidence shows that these kinked babies are from environmental factors during development, not genetic factors! You know like if your mom smokes crack, you will be jacked up. If the environment is too dry, too wet or whatever the eggs suffer.
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>>"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

D, would you use such a wc snake in a breeding program?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

What I'm getting at with that question is if you are so certain the issue is not genetic (aesthetics aside) then why not?

I think his example was valid. Perhaps this little neonate came from a female with poor nesting ability and this accounts for the defect. Whether that instinct is genetic or not is also subject to debate but the fact remains that such animals are selected against in the wild and given a pass in captivity.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony,
Environmental factors vary from year to year and place to place. So that poor nest site one spring may be a great nest site next spring. Her genes will carry on.

Todd Hughes is having trouble with kinked bairds. Trumbower is working with the exact same genes (he got the from Todd) and his are perfect. More evidence that is environmental (In captivity that is husbandry related).

ok the specific example does not fit. The principal does.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I have an Everglades rat snake that has consecutively given kinked babies even when he is bred to a WC yellow. And even his offspring when bred to yet another WC yellow still gave all kinked babies and all my Cornsnakes set up exactly the same and fed the same mice and eggs incubated even in the same tub side by side all were normal except one little runt. But he was not kinked. I would gladly send him to anyone if they pay shipping, to try to get normal babies from this guy! He's great looking too by the way. Explain that one?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

How does the nest site being good next year, help her this year?
Is the snake Clarvoyant? (spelling?)Why would she pick a bad spot this year?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Why would you build a house in the path of a tornado or a hurricane? You mean you're not clairvoyant?

A house will last many decades even centuries perhaps (with upkeep), but a nest is only 2 months. If some drastic weather change had occurrred I could buy that. However this was this two weeks ago, and it's been typical florida here.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Only for experimental purposes. I have taken a kinked hatchling and bred it to f2 only to get normal hatchlings. I don't think it is genetic. I now feed the kinked/weak hatchlings to monitors.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Tony,
I'll tell you what's interesting, is finding nest sites in the wild. I've found a few, and learned a few things from them. One of the things I learned was we incubate way too wet. Tracy Barker first told me 25 years ago that if you incubate too wet the neonates will have trouble pipping because the eggs are too rubbery. Drier incubation results in eggs that are more easily cut with an egg tooth.

Some guys in Mexico uncovered a nest of alligator lizards eggs - 19 of them or something like that. There wasn't a speck of moisture and the eggs looked perfect.

I found a clutch of snake eggs (already hatched) in a crevice of a limestone cave. Not a speck of moisture there either. Humidity yes.

I found a nest of eggs on top of a bluff under a huge rock, 33 great plains skink eggs - same deal.

Remember when we first started doing this they said to incubate your eggs at 1;1 ratio by weight water to vermiculite. Then Steve H started trying half that ratio of water to vermiculite.
This year I put 1/4 water to 1 part vermiculite, just a smidge to keep the humidity up, and I thinks its even better.

I agree!! When it comes to eggs and vermiculite, I emphasize way less moisture than what was once thought. The vermiculite itself that I used was already of a moister grade. The last few years I hatched eggs, I barely put any water, about next to nothing, in the vermiculite, and had great results.

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Genesis 1:1

OFF Topic, I want nice blairs, beautiful plus some. Thanks for posting.

I agree Billy. I've been a member of the drier is better group for some time. Nice blairs!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Thanks Tony!!
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Genesis 1:1

I asked a python breeder why is it a common practice to cut open the unhatched egg, and he said some of the baby snakes don't have an egg tooth and therefore cannot get the egg open on their own. I thought to myself, wouldn't that lead to a genetic line of pythons who do not have egg teeth, and are therefore defective?
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

No, its not necessarily a genetic trait, its most likely a husbandry trait. Again, healthy adult= healthy eggs= healthy neonates. Sub in Stong for healthy if you want.

In nature, they place eggs where the conditions are RIGHT. Not so much in captivity. We as a whole guess compared to the snakes that KNOW.

In nature snakes are so strong then prosper with a huge parasite load and can survive very tramatic injuries. Hmmmmmmmm captives need drugs.

In this case, failure to form a strong egg tooth is very much a husbandry problem. If the neonates are at all calicum defeicent, the egg tooth will be not formed or inefficent. Low calicum levels are very common with captive hatchlings. The term weak hatchlings is directly related to calicum deficency.

So it very well can be a husbandry related issue.

Again cutting eggs is something people seem to WANT to do, as if the animals need our help. Its one of those bandaid fixes, you know, take a pill instead of avoiding disease.

If it was genetic, then why does it occur with all egg laying species, even longterm wild caught adults.

What I wonder is, why do people want to blame something they have no control over and make all manner of analogies, yet have no evidence what so ever.

Of interest, to actually learn from doing this, you should not assume anything. Observe question and react to problems, that teachs you. The key is to ask the right questions and ask the keepers as well as the animals.

. For instance, if you question the python breeder about why he cuts eggs, he will not have any real answers, that is, no proof, only assumptions. he will most likely base his answer on FEAR. You know, cause they cannot get out on their own. Then rationalize it must be genetic. This is common across the hobby.

I know I will get some flac for this but, now a days, anybody can breed snakes, all they have to do is follow instructions. But not everyone has the ability to solve problems. That is not on the instruction sheet. In my day, there were no caresheets, no internet, no cell phones. Most herpers were carpenders, as we knew how to build cages, as there were no cage companies. We learned to prevent illness as there were no reptile vets, or herp magazines no herp shows. No hide rocks, water bowls, etc etc etc, and no dang suppliments. Not only did we have to invent husbandry, but all the tools to go along with it. it was easy, to invent, as there was nothing, anything we did was an invention.

What was very much the same was, Very bad advice. that has not changed. As now, even those who fail, give advice.

So those that were successful had to be problem solvers. Not so much today.

again, low calicum levels will effect the ability to hatch successfully. From no egg tooth, to soft egg teeth.
Cheers

again, low calicum levels will effect the ability to hatch successfully. From no egg tooth, to soft egg teeth.
It seems that the diet adult snakes would be consuming would already have sufficient calcium; the bones of large rats, rabbits, other prey animals. If the prey animals are reproducing successfully and having strong young, there should not be a calcium deficiency. I feed my mice cuttlefish bone for extra calcium and as something hard to gnaw on. This should translate into calcium adequate food for my snakes. The mice also get a high quality rodent block diet. So what goes in to the mice will be going into the snakes.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Hi Bob, First, its not about the rodents. Its all about husbandry. Reptiles, and in this case snakes are ECTOTHERMS, which means they obtain their body temps from the enviornment. The misconception is, they do not utililize a single body temp like mammals. They use a RANGE of different temps for a range of different tasks.

If we do not support the absorption of calicum with the proper temps at the proper time, it would not manner if they ate the whole dang cuddlebone. They simply cannot place the calicum they consume. Which is the key to CDD.(calicum Deficency disease)

I do field work with snakes, we take their internal body temps. Well, they rarely have the same temps. hahahahahahahaha not to eachother and not compared to where they are.

Emerging snakes of a base body temp, then they seek heat and bask, whats important here is at what temp do that move away from heat. Individuals that are not digesting food, shedding or gravid, move away at a fairly low temp, enough heat to crawl efficently. Individuals with a food bolus attempt to attain more heat, so they move away at a higher body temp. Individuals in shed, also seek higher body temps. But the highest body temps belong to injured snakes trying to heal, and gravid females with a food bolus. We record Internal body temps on active snakes out of shelters. This ranges from the low forties, to the high ninties. These are voluntary temps, which means, they seek them.

The building of the immune system requires more heat then compared to the digestion of food. The ability to absorb calicum takes more heat then the act of getting oxygen to the cells and lactic acid out, etc etc.
As a keeper, you should know that a cool snake cannot crawl very well, a warm snake can. A cold snake does nothing. This goes for all their functions.

For some reason(that eludes me) in captivity, keepers feel the need to average everything and interfere with everything. Things like cutting eggs, force feeding, forced shedding, adding this and that, seperating this and that. Again, they are designed to not need those things.

i have many world first captive breedings, people would ask, how do you feel to be the first to breed X species. i say, relieved, as these animals have been breeding without me for tens of thousands of years. I only allowed them to do what is normal to them, nothing great, just normal.

To clear that up, to recruit, replace themselves, is a minimum level of success. The minimum, its what their entire design is suppose to do normally. The same goes for eggs hatching and neonates having the ability to survive long enough to recruit. That is their normal design.

Without that, they do not exsist.

So I offer two points here, do not assume that if the food item is good, that the snakes can process that food item.

And reproduction is the minimum level of success, not the maximum.

What I feel is very important is, the newbies are dismissing problems instead of trying to fix them.

Yes, you can keep and breed snakes with minimum effort, but there is a cost. The cost is the number of problems you will see. Which is still ok, as long as you know you can fix those problems. Which you can. But if you ignore the problems you will see, what WE are seeing right here. The blaming of simple to fix problems to something you cannot fix. Then the animals suffer, but you feel good. Cheers

For some reason(that eludes me) in captivity, keepers feel the need to average everything.

I think its a mistake to assume people are keeping animals at static averages. There isn't a single breeder I know who doesn't provide thermal gradients. The range may not be as wide as you promote (and I think you've made good points about the value of increasing that range) but the fact that gradients are good is a long held understanding.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I would not feel comfortable making any assumptions about how the people that post in these forums keep their snakes.

I would feel perfectly safe in saying if they are not aware of the value of gradients their newbieness would be more evident.

Newbieness, I just made that up and I didn't even have beer with lunch!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

So with proper heat the snakes can digest and metabolize their food. I give all my snakes a hot spot which I measure with an infrared gun. When they are in feeding mode they do favor the hot spot, but as fall comes on they begin to move away from it as they also slow down and finally stop eating for the season. With big tubs I can do a wide range of temps. The infrared gun is my most useful tool for knowing exactly what temps are happening at any given spot.

I have no plans to fiddle with the eggs; if things are right I would expect a successful hatch without having to do anything weird to the eggs. I never do anything to my lizard eggs except move them into the incubator and they hatch just fine.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Really I wanted to say it, but I just didn't have time to add the 40 posts it was going to take to support my opinion

>>No, its not necessarily a genetic trait, its most likely a husbandry trait.
>> In this case, failure to form a strong egg tooth is very much a husbandry problem. If the neonates are at all calicum defeicent, the egg tooth will be not formed or inefficent. Low calicum levels are very common with captive hatchlings. The term weak hatchlings is directly related to calicum deficency.
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>> So it very well can be a husbandry related issue.

Aren't you the same guy who argued with me over the need to ensure you're using quality food? Come on Frank quit playing both sides of the fence I can't keep up!

You said this.

Again, healthy adult= healthy eggs= healthy neonates.

I have absolutely no problem with this but it is not an absolute! I know that you didn't mean it as such but by using this statement in the context of this discussion you're understating the reality that sometimes weak unfit neonates come from healthy adults. In the wild such offspring are selected against. In captivity they are salvaged and that reality has to have implications for the captive population relative to wild ones.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I watched plenty of Prehistoric videos of them cutting open all their pyton eggs. Each time I watch them doing that, I have to wonder if eventually they are promoting snakes, that if done for a very long time, would begin to loose their ability to cut out by themselves?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Hey Jorge, I would say if the lack of an egg tooth is a genetic defect, then they will promote development of pythons that cannot cut their eggs due to lack of the egg tooth. I suppose there is a possiblity the phenomena is environmental, but not likely.

My thought is not that the domestic snakes are losing the abilities but rather that we are helping them survive without proving themselves...like pipping eggs for the babies. Providing food for even those that were weak/poor hunters.

But your WC snakes nested well , I would contend, not because it wasn't bred out of them but rather that the snakes that you found in the wild were "more fit" because they were more challenged and survived those challenges. They nested well and therefore survived. Most of their sibs likely did not survive. If you had found an entire clutch of freshly hatched WCs and raised them all I would dare say you would find as much divergence in ability and vigor as with your CBs. Not genetics so much as environment. Captive environment is easier than wild.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

LOL I think you are saying the same thing in a more efficient way! My point was that not all failures can be traced back to poor husbandry or lack of choices. Sometimes the snake or the fish just doesn't posses the skill or instinct. Whether or not that loss is genetic in origin is a much bigger discussion that my limited observations would not support either way.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

of course there is no answer for this, as there are many many lines of captives with completely different histories.

Also, I would think over long periods of time, inherent behaviors have to be lost or weaken to a point of failure. That would take a very long time. Not what we have here.

But I do not think we are at that point now. Not on a genetic level. We are on a individual behavioral level. Anytime you take a behavior from an animal, it will give up after a while.

Behaviors have two directions, one dictated by genetics, or two, behaviors that respond to a stimulus. Simple examples would be, ratsnakes eat rats or birds, not skunks or deer.

nesting or making a nest is stimulated by acquiring the right materials. Birds show this well, some use mud, no mud, no nests. Some use twigs, mud will not due.etc

Well reptiles are not all that far from birds, remember, its reptiles that initiated the amniote egg. So the behaviors of nesting was also originated with reptiles. birds only took it a step farther.

Many lizards construct stick nests, or burrows, or dig out termite mounds. Many lizards coil around their eggs until they hatch. Many lizards move their eggs from one spot to another, Many pythons also move their eggs. So no, reptiles are not the mindless animal sans behavior.

Snakes are very specific as to where they place eggs. They are not commonly found. An example is Joes lack of success, thats all the nests you have found?????? Joe if you used better digging equipment, like a backhoe, you would find more. hahahahahahahahahahaha.

So if an individual female does not recieve a key stimulus, then a behavior cannot be initiated. This is common with varanids.

To think what we call nests, has very little to do with where they nest in nature. About the only similar element is, humidity and temperature and only close.

one key thought is the difference between humidity and wetness. In captivity, we wet a cage or nesting substrate to create humidity. In nature, they nest in DRY areas with high humidity. nature has a huge mass to draw humidity from, in captivity we make a tiny box and wonder why there are problems.

So I agree with Joe, a dang again, Dry and humid is the key, when this is done, it will eliminate the need to cut eggs open. hahahahahahahaha a cross thread response.

Anyway, I think we are not effecting them genetically, just dulling individual effort. Cheers

"Also, I would think over long periods of time, inherent behaviors have to be lost or weaken to a point of failure. That would take a very long time. Not what we have here"

I think its fair to say that these animals are quite complex as a part of a larger environment. In that environment, specific charactoristics are selected for including behavior. When we take animals out of their natural environment these selection pressures are removed and I think it quite reasonable to assume that at least for individual animals we'd begin seeing behaviors that devieate from those selected for among wild populations.

I also think it reasonable to believe that one could start seeing the change in a fairly quick time frame. I've seen this nesting thing come up with increasing regularity over the past 30 years. Didn't really put 2 and 2 together till you mentioned the casting off of eggs a few months back.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>> Snakes are very specific as to where they place eggs. They are not commonly found. An example is Joes lack of success, thats all the nests you have found?????? Joe if you used better digging equipment, like a backhoe, you would find more. hahahahahahahahahahaha.

LOL Frank - dangit, yep it's difficult to find nests in west Texas - you know that's where I go spend all my time. I should have noted that I wasn't digging through leaf litter in east Texas. (There have been a couple more, but not many).

Joe, I was just playing with you. hahahahahahahahaha. you must be nice to the habitat. If you investigate a little deeper, hahahahahahahahaha you would find more.

My interests in the field included knowing where certain species nested. I do this because I feel nesting/gestation sites, are more critical then foraging areas. As these reptiles do not appear to be very flexible when it comes to nesting. Much like birds.

A thought would be, species that become feral, may be species that have flexible nesting. Which is something to consider in the control of invasive species.

Off thread, but, burms have been in fla for 50 years, yet they did not establish. Now they have, what caused that? my bet is we humans finally introduced a burn that had hesting behavior that worked in S. Fla. Just a thought. Cheers

because I quit flipping (most) rocks in west Texas long ago. Of course sometimes you see a rock so perfect you can't help yourself. But all in all, it's fruitless if you add up the dozen or so rewards over time, and as you say, it's to be nice to the habitat.

I might take a backhoe to some of my dino fossil beds though, you should come out for that.