Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey herp fans, here is another topic to banter around. Whats your thoughts on release of animals from a survival perspective given they are disease free,idigenous, etc.? A good friend of mine says there is scientific evidence that there is a very low survival rate on released animals like snakes in new areas to them regardless of how suitable the habitat is for that animal. If I remember correctly, he said the animals wandered due to them not knowing the area and wind up easier targets to predators, and in general not knowing the danger zones to avoid in the new area. I always felt that if suitable habitat was provided, these transplants would find suitable shelter, food, avoid danger zones, etc. on an instinctual level. My opinion is skewed and only using the adaptation of wild caught animals like box turtles and snakes to captivity as a reference.

just kidding LOL

That's true (low survival, more vulnerable), at least with the Rattlesnakes that have been studied. I'm not aware of studies involving other species.

Yeah Joe, like I posted to Mark below, IMO snakes should operate too instintually for stuff like that to matter if the habitat is right. Apparently studies have proven that wrong. Still, we know of snakes and other reptiles populating islands after being transported by storms, on floating debris rafts, etc. Maybe in cases like this the habitat wasnt familiar, but neither too dangerous to make a difference??

I would think that if said habitat could support them, there'd already be a population of them there...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That exactly what I thought too Mark. However, even if a good population of the same animal is there, the transplants are still destined to fail. Apparently it good habitat, but not familiar habitat. So they tend to wander and not know the bad spots to avoid, good spots to use, etc. I would think snakes especially would be too instinctual for stuff like that to matter, but apparently it does!!

on top of that if there were a pop. already going....then the released could actually be competing with them and maybe not be helping at all. I would think that the whole picture would need to be looked at thoroughly ...and maybe for years before attempting to repopulate an area with new releases....and expect to change the eco system somewhat when done.
Possiblly (imo) hatchlings would be a better choice for this as they have no "home range" yet? Either way, I'd expect very high mortality...BUT...nature can be resilient and adaptable. Otherwise we'd have no problems with all the exotics here in FL.!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

My cb yearling bull got out this summer and was found under the pool ladder platform looking quite lost! LOL!
On the other hand, my wc Cali king escaped and has not been seen since. I think he has done well, being as this is his native territory. I released three wc Pacific gopher snakes at my friends' property which was severely infested with gophers, but in a fenced yard with few predators and no roads to wander onto. I think if the animals are wc already and are released in a safe place, they will soon make themselves at home. Captive bred used to a steady diet of domestic rodents handed to them by a nurturing human; those would surely be babes in the woods.

An example of a babe in the woods. She got out this summer and went no further than the front steps, where she holed up in the ivy growing there. Although a native species to my area, she is cb and didn't seem to have a clue as to what to do next. I believe there is more than instinct guiding these animals. They have to learn things, too. In a cage all they learn is someone will feed them.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

It seems those Pythons in Florida are doing well.......hmmmmm
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

They got a little cold this year. URI got to alot of them. they probably would have done fine with a cold snap or two but FL was a bit chilly for 3 or 4 weeks this past winter.
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Jimmy Tintle

>>They got a little cold this year. URI got to alot of them. they probably would have done fine with a cold snap or two but FL was a bit chilly for 3 or 4 weeks this past winter.

Yep...I know....I was just stating that they can make it in "foreign" territory......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Hey herp fans, here is another topic to banter around. Whats your thoughts on release of animals from a survival perspective given they are disease free,idigenous, etc.? A good friend of mine says there is scientific evidence that there is a very low survival rate on released animals like snakes in new areas to them regardless of how suitable the habitat is for that animal. If I remember correctly, he said the animals wandered due to them not knowing the area and wind up easier targets to predators, and in general not knowing the danger zones to avoid in the new area. I always felt that if suitable habitat was provided, these transplants would find suitable shelter, food, avoid danger zones, etc. on an instinctual level. My opinion is skewed and only using the adaptation of wild caught animals like box turtles and snakes to captivity as a reference.

I once heard, or read maybe, that only 1 out of every 100 snakes in the wild, will survive to adulthood.
Has anyone ever heard or read that?
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

>>I once heard, or read maybe, that only 1 out of every 100 snakes in the wild, will survive to adulthood.
>> Has anyone ever heard or read that?

I've heard similar speculation but I don't think any one really knows.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>>>I once heard, or read maybe, that only 1 out of every 100 snakes in the wild, will survive to adulthood.
>>>> Has anyone ever heard or read that?
>>
>>
>>I've heard similar speculation but I don't think any one really knows.....
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>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Thanks John, I could see it, with all the preditors they have,
Ratcoons, possum, cats, birds, other snakes, and cars, and I'm sure you could name a few more.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I have this statement on my dry erase board at work......."99 Percent of All Percentages are Made Up!..."

I am pretty much certain ALL don't make it to adulthood in the wild but out of 100 I have no earthly idea and I don't think anyone does honestly.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I have this statement on my dry erase board at work......."99 Percent of All Percentages are Made Up!..."
>>
That all depends on , how bad your at math, and if your in Govt.LOL
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I think this 1% survival rate is in reality an impossible thing to know.
To do this count right, one would have to fence in (over head, too, for hawks and other birds)several very large habitats all the same with the same ratio of predators to prey, same water and other resources, etc. Then one would have to count every single snake and every single predator (don't forget parasites!) Also the weather for each habitat would have to be the same. If there was a road going through the habitats, one would have to have the same amount of cars with the same type of drivers (both those who would on purpose drive over a snake and those who would avoid hitting it)....in other words, the variables that would impact the accuracy of such a study seem overwhelming.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Overhead fencing would totally defeat the purpose of such a study, since raptors are natural and major snake predators, and the object of the study is to investigate total mortality from all predation, disease, etc.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Nah, I meant fence in the raptors, crows, blue jays, etc. Thus needing a fence at least the size and dimensions of the Superbowl! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>I think this 1% survival rate is in reality an impossible thing to know.
>>To do this count right, one would have to fence in (over head, too, for hawks and other birds)several very large habitats all the same with the same ratio of predators to prey, same water and other resources, etc. Then one would have to count every single snake and every single predator (don't forget parasites!) Also the weather for each habitat would have to be the same. If there was a road going through the habitats, one would have to have the same amount of cars with the same type of drivers (both those who would on purpose drive over a snake and those who would avoid hitting it)....in other words, the variables that would impact the accuracy of such a study seem overwhelming.
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>>Bob/Chris

Your working way to hard.
Estimation is the way to go;
You need and estimate on how many adult snakes per Sq. mile;
lets say 20
50% are female; =10
lets say, avarage of 10 eggs once a year per female; = 100
2 years to adulthood; x 2 = 200 babies per 2 years.
200-20 adults = 180 missing snakes over a two year period.
180% of 200 = 90% of 100
So I guess There estimate was a bit off!LOL (Their is no wrong answer)
so lets estimate only 10 out of 100 snakes survive to adulthood.
wasn't sure if I did The math right on the 180% of 200 = 90% of 100. lol
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I would be the last person to find fault with another person's math skills! LOL!
Your estimation method is certainly easier than my idea of fencing in an area the size of the Superbowl and counting every living thing therein.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Its against the law in many states. And for good reason.

As mentioned, if the habitat is suitable, they it should already have a native population. If nothing else, it will only disrupt the exsisting dynamics.

As you mentioned, they normally die and in very high percentages.

A easy way to think about this is, a high percentage of neonates do not make it to adulthood and recruit lets say 95%(of course that is not a set number) So why would it be different for those released?????? both have to find the support necessary for survival.

Another easy example is, here we have lots of lizards, They can be difficult to catch But after you catch them, try taking them a few hundred feet away and releasing them, then try to catch them again. This time its easy to catch them, why? Cheers