Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Maybe you remember me from a few months ago. HI!

I found a couple Cal kings one of which was prego, and laid 4 days after I caught her. Well the eggs have started to hatch! two out so far and very nice looking.

My question is, so far I've been removing them from the cage and putting them in separate Tupperware as they hatch cause I fear they'll try and eat eachother. Since they're all the same size will they even try?

Yes, they will. You are wise to separate them as they hatch.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

shoot. I wanted to go to sleep. looks like i gotta separate all the eggs first. I couldn't do it after hatching cause they were stuck but now they'll survive.

I am not sure I understand about whether or not the eggs are still stuck together. If they are still stuck together I would wait until the babies hatch instead of trying to separate the eggs. Also sometimes the babies will pip the egg but take a couple days to finally emerge, so I don't think cannibalism is eminent.

As the babies emerge take them out and put them in their separate habitats. Let the baby completely leave the egg first.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I think that was an attempt at Sarcasm? Not sure.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Um, no. Just trying to clarify the picture.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

That is wrong, you are now training them to be poor captives.

No offense pyro, but I have raised hundreds upon hundreds of cal kings and they do not consume litter mates unless you again have poor husbandry.

If you want to raise the babies up to breed them then its best to raise them together.

You somehow think of snakes as windup toys. They have behaviors and they need to learn behaviors. What they really need is to learn to live with other snakes. Without this training, they become poor captives.

As long as they are not starved, they will not eat the animals they have lived with. Of course even people eat eachother when starved.

If you want practice the "WHAT IF" or "IS IT POSSIBLE" well of course it is, but all manner of things are not only possible but more probable. Most likely you snake will get out and die, or any other common accident.

As debated here many times, there are those that have no problem keeping kingsnakes in pairs and groups, then there are those that are afraid to do so. or had a problem.

You can do whatever you want, but I am opposed to you giving advice without knowing what your talking about.

The best advice is to allow the hatchlings to learn to live with eachother, as long as they are fed normally. If your going to go long periods not feeding them, then seperate them.

With training, kings can be fed by throwing in a handful of mice and they do not have problems, I know this because that is what I practice and have practiced that for 4 decades. The type of kings you have may be ones I developed in this way.

The point is, the method your passing on, is restrictive and actually causes the problems you mention.

how about thinking about how these animals work in nature. One base thought is, if they ate members of their own colony, there would be no kingsnakes, as who knows how to find kingsnakes better then another kingsnake. or if they ate their eggs, there would be no hatchlings, as all other kings would do is follow the female, if they did not eat her already.

So how do they work? How do they live in the colonies they do? What allows them to do that. Cheers

I am basing my information on what happened with some hatchling thayeri where one snake ate it's sibling.
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1846598,1846598
Granted, they were a few weeks old and had not yet eaten (until one decided to eat it's sibling), not just hatched babies. I am erring on the side of caution. I am interested in the idea of raising kings together from hatchling age. If this is really workable it would save me a ton in space, but alas I am too much of a newbie to chance this.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

of course it could happen, but as mentioned, lots can happen. What most likely will happen is your snakes getting out and dying, or disappearing, that is what will happen.

By keeping them apart, you making everything you do harder. Its causing you to take up more space, its causing you more work, because your working against the normal function of the snakes.

The best way to keep pairs, colonies, groups of reptiles is to raise them together. Period.

The next best way is to winter them together if they have not been raised together.

If neither of those work and you have a problem individual, then you treat that one the way your doing now.

What is funny is, keeping them in groups takes less space then keeping them one in a cage. How funny is that.

Of course that assumes you are not keeping them cramped in a box that only has enough body space for one individual. In that case, your not keeping them in a cage, your keeping them stuck in their hide box.

About more hides and stuff, well thats actually silly. How you can tell your snakes are bonded is, they are always together, even if they have choices where they can be apart. If they stay on opposite sides of the cage, that is a sign they do not get along.

More later, Cheers

By keeping them apart, you making everything you do harder. Its causing you to take up more space, its causing you more work, because your working against the normal function of the snakes.

About more hides and stuff, well thats actually silly. How you can tell your snakes are bonded is, they are always together, even if they have choices where they can be apart. If they stay on opposite sides of the cage, that is a sign they do not get along.

My three pairs of pits. All three pairs are bonded, nearly always together. They have big habitats, but choose the same hides. etc.

09 Pacifics

09 bulls

08 Pacifics
I post these pictures to show that I am not against the idea of housing snakes together, I do feed them separately.

Now that it is getting cooler and my pyros are not in feeding mode anymore, I will try putting my pyros together in trios (one male to two females. The reason for trios is that is the ratio of males to females I have, and size wise works out). If they show signs that they are bonding then I will consider this venture a success. They are currently in 105 qt sterilite tubs, which seems quite a large space for the small pyros. So I don't think there will be a danger of overcrowding. During feeding season I do offer food probably more often than most keepers, so the snakes don't have to get too hungry.

I really appreciate your input, Thank you very much. I do believe I am grokking the concept now.
Anybody who feels I am jumping out of the plane without a properly packed chute, by all means speak up! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Some snakes are not as canibalistic as others. I keep Sina/Nelsons in a group cage. But I would NEVER do that with Getula. That's just me! I know from experience they can and sometimes do eat there cage mates. I can't speak for Pyros. I don't remember anyone ever saying they had a Pyro eat another but Pitphus are not snake eaters so there's no problem there.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

First trio's tubs joined together. Everyone got his or her own original moss hide in all fresh aspen, just to have something familiar. At first they were rather disturbed by the change, but now have relaxed. These tubs house my older young adult pyros. I need to get more fittings so I can join the other two tubs together for my smaller pyros. This gives them more room and a fun thing, the tube to crawl through. Two pairs of my gopher snakes have this type set up. When I want to keep them separated for any reason I put a peanut butter jar lid over the fittings on either end. I did this a couple days ago with my 08 gophers so I could feed the shy female under her hide, and the male got really upset when he couldn't get past the jar lid to be with her. After she ate I took the lids off and he was back with her in a flash. He wasn't hungry, he just likes to be with her.

I also would not try to put getula together. I don't even have any getula, just pyromelana. My one getula escaped back into the wild from whence he came a early this summer. Hasta la vista, baby!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I forgot to mention, these are all 105 quart sterilite tubs. I like the deep tubs so I can give them lots of substrate to burrow in.

I am always trying to think outside the tub! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

**Pitphus are not snake eaters so there's no problem there.**

Totally not true. I caught a small Sonoran Gopher snake at a rattlesnake den that had just eaten a rattlesnake.

LOL

Kerby...
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Offer food often, don't let them get too hungry.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Wow, I did not know that. I haven't really gotten into the Pines and bulls much, but I never heard of that before. Thanks for the info!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Pituophis do sometimes also do cannibalization.
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1854678,1854891
A rare event for Jason, who has raised hundreds of pituophis for years.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I use those gladware containers in the same exact form lol.. I thought I was the only one smart enough to use those for that. they make good hideboxes too.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

I use those gladware containers in the same exact form lol.. I thought I was the only one smart enough to use those for that. they make good hideboxes too.
Great minds think alike! LOL!
My 800 gram Pacific gopher Gonzo has outgrown her Glad container, and has been moved up to a larger Rubbermaid container. She pops the lid off the Glad tubs when she gets in and out.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Another thought before I take the plunge:
If these snakes are together is there any danger of them breeding at too young or small for the females? It seems in nature breeding would take place when the females are ready to be successful at producing clutches, and there would be no breedings too early for the females.

Also, once a female is gravid it seems a wise move to temporarily separate her from her group or partner so she can lay her clutch in peace, without someone else eating her eggs. In nature she would be able to find a place away from the others to lay her clutch. In captivity, a habitat would have to be at least as big as a large rock outcropping to give her a private place to nest.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

If you want to raise the babies up to breed them then its best to raise them together.
I am doing exactly that with some pairs of my pituophis. With kings, I am just afraid to try. What sort of husbandry exactly do I need to provide for my pyros so they don't eat each other? You have been doing this a long time so I respect your input.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

To be honest, I am interested as well. I admit I am currently keeping my moderates sized adult colubrids in 28qt to 32qt. sized boxes. Is there a minimum sized enclosure required (obviously bigger is better in general)for communal housing to be safer/healthy?? Tons of hides?? Is there a certain number of snakes suggested for certain sized containers??

My lobe is swelling again! Somebody get me some duct tape!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I'm sure anything is possible but I wouldn't worry to much about it. I breed Cal kings and leave them all together until they start shedding. After that I either get rid of them or keep one to raise. Just letting you know its not a for sure thing they will start eating each other before you get a chance to separate them. Good luck.
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I breed Thayeri Kings. Not the type you mention. I had one that was still halfway in the egg and eat a litter mate. This was a rare thing. But it is very possible for it to happen. If your going to keep them together , don't be surprised if you lose one or two and possibly the one that did the eating because it choked to death. Just my opinion. Mike

Well, I've hatched a few cal kings and I always leave them together until they are all out of the egg for a clutch shot, then sepatate into individual containers....and NEVER had one eat the other.

But I did have an adult female cal king that would try to kill EVERY MALE that I tried to breed her to.....and I don't care how much I fed her.....she just simple didn't want another cal king with her...PERIOD! Grab and wrap EVERY TIME with numerous coils. I finally had to hold her head while I introduced the male lol

Kerby...
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