Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The 105 quart tubs joined together.

The 08 sisters. They have two moss hides under the cardboard flat but they holed up together in one.

The 08 boy (unrelated), alone in the other tub.
I just put them in this tub arrangement yesterday. During the night there was quite a lot of activity; water bowl full of moss from pan, etc, from exploration, but no hostility or fear. This morning I found them settled down more. I will continue to observe them as time goes on, but so far it's looking favorable. These snakes are mellow individuals. They don't even like to eat large hoppers, so it is hard to imagine they would want to eat each other. They are off feed for the season, and will go the winter this way. I always do feed my snakes separate and not in their habitats.

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1861480,1861512
By keeping them apart, you making everything you do harder. Its causing you to take up more space, its causing you more work, because your working against the normal function of the snakes.

About more hides and stuff, well thats actually silly. How you can tell your snakes are bonded is, they are always together, even if they have choices where they can be apart. If they stay on opposite sides of the cage, that is a sign they do not get along.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I like what your doing here. I will go ahead and winter my trio of splendida all together in a cage that is roughly 4'x3'x2'tall. I will try and keep them together through the season and since they are all normals i will just let them breed freely and see how that goes. Of course once i notice a female is gravid i will more than likely put her in a seperate cage with the proper setup to lay.

If this goes well then i will start observe and keep all my willing pairs and trios like this. Could be interesting.
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Chris - TX

2.2 Splendida
1.1 Nigrita
1.1 Ruthveni
0.0.3 277 Alterna

Just remember to keep those splendida very well fed, or you could have quite an unpleasant surprise on your hands!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have heard that getula are more likely to engage in cannibalizing, but like you said, if they are well fed and familiar with each other, things should work out favorably.

I have my pyros in trios of 1.2 partly because with every other type of animal I have ever raised, including fence lizards, the males do not get along together very well. The one exception to this was my flock of budgerigars, which as long as each pair had their own nest box, got along fine together in the big walk in aviary.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Yeah, I would imagine the pyro's being kept in trio's would work out rather well.

Interesting about the birds too!. I guess if they feel their own nest box is their own little territorial retreat, all is good.

Sort of like a guy's snake room or garage..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

My other trio:

Zafina and Zuni, 09 sisters.

"Room for one more?" Zane the unrelated 08 male (a small dude) joins the sisters. He spent some time exploring the new set up before finally deciding to join the sisters.

The other setup. The tube is on the left, a vertical climb which they have negotiated easily. They winter fine in my cabin. Nobody ever loses too much weight and starting in February everyone wants to eat.

I figure when they are ready to breed they will do so without me having to bother them. They will know when the time is right age and size wise. Wild snakes don't have chaperones! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

IMO splendida and mexican black kings are the least likely to engage in cannibalism. Not saying it can never happen, but compared to Cal kings, splendida are teddy bears.

When I was younger and got my first pair of Mexican black kings, I was told they don't eat one another. I kept them together for 15 yrs. They were siblings. Goes to show you how times have changed.. that would now be a sin in the eyes of many. But back then, more breeders were doing that than they do now I think.
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Mark

You have really got me to thinking. I have already been considering housing my trio of 08 alternas together for the winter brumation. Currently the larger female is alone. She is definitely large enough to breed next spring. The other two are a pair that have been raised together, only separated for feeding. They are a little smaller, having been brumated their first winter after hatching.

The male, and the larger female were placed together a few time this last spring, but no mating took place that I am aware of. She did not lay eggs.

I am interested in the idea of leaving them together through the spring, and letting nature take its course concerning the smaller female (whether she is large enough to breed or not.)

Any thoughts?

Here they are. The middle shot is the male.

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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

www.captivebred.com/Co-Habitating%20lampropeltis.htm
Here is one of my sources for information. I am new to this so am hesitant to give advice, but am certainly willing to share any knowledge I have gathered from more experienced keepers.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.
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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

My concern would be undue stress on the smaller female if the male is constantly pursuing her to breed before she is ready. I would assume this would have some long term affect on her and may cause issues with feeding. Then again, if the cage were large enough for her to get away, and the other female to keep the male occupied, it could theoretically work out I quess. I am wondering if additional hides would be necessary as well to help break up line of sight and provide the stressed animal more options in a communal housing situation. Regardless, IMO the female would not be able to get away from amorous pursuing in captivitiy like she could in the wild and that may cause stress, and stress related effects on her health. Hopefully some of the experienced communal housing guys will chime in to give some first hand info and knowledge on this.

Kevin, that makes a lot of sense. This past spring unwanted attention by the male was not an issue. I observed occasional interest on his part, but it never went anywhere. It was would usually happen upon reuniting them after feeding. He would sometimes briefly pursure, but give up quickly. I expect this coming spring it will be a different story.

I see my options as follows:
Leave the pair together for the winter, then place the male with the larger female for breeding in the spring, or . . .

Place the male with the larger female for the winter, or . . .

Cool them all together and see what happens in the spring. I can remove the smaller female from the communal enclosure if necessary.

Sorry pyro for jumping in, but this is an interesting topic.

This will be my first attempt at breeding king snakes of any kind, but I have bred corn snakes a few times.

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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

That last pic was my first hatchling ever. A normal cornsnake in 2004.

Here is my male alterna to get back on topic.

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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

Oh Wow! If you get tired of that snake I promise to give him a good home!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Thanks, I like him too. He came from rpalaez (gray-banded KS forum.)
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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
0.0.3 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
0.0.5 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

Other than a disease issue, I see no real problem with brumating multiple snakes in one enclosure, even males. However, I would suspect multiple males at breeding season would lead to possible combat issues. Then as mentioned the stress of unwilling females if constantly harrassed. I think 1.2 wouldnt be bad. Just monitor the well being of all occupants from an aggression or stress standpoint?? Also, I assume the communal folks are only housing similar genetics together to know what the babies are genetically LOL!! I couldnt imagine housing two males of different genetics with two female of different genetics, etc. It would be a nightmare figuring out the genetics of the babies if at all LOL!! I have a female corn right now I got as a hatchling in 98. The breeder apparently did just that. Housed different males and females in breeding colonies. She is a normal and I was told she was het anery. I bred her to a hypo het anery and got anerys and normals. OK I said, she is definitely het anery. Well, next year I bred her to a snow and got normals, anerys, amels, and snows!!!! When I questioned the breeder who produced her, he was all over the place and said maybe the her dad was snow, etc. Bottom line, he didnt know!!!

I think what will happen when they get horny is germane to the topic of communal housing. For some reason this makes me flash on college coed dormitory living! LOL!

If all are the same size and have plenty of room to stretch out in and be comfortable, with just one male per one or two females, I think they should be fine. The females put out a pheromone when they are ready to mate, to alert the male. If she is not ready he wont be that stimulated to try to mate with her. Now if two females are in the habitat but only one is producing the pheromone, perhaps the male might try to mate with the non-producing pheromone female as well. If they are all the same size, she should be able to say no and have it stick. So I think in this case size does matter.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

The stress I observed was really only one case and with a pair of corns. I paired a female on the cusp size wise with a brute of a male. He actively pursued her and she kept fleeing, almost violently at times. Maybe he would have given up and they would have gotten along peaceably. I do notice the adults of similar size will be found separate and chilled out after awhile, even after the male tried to breed and was unsuccessful. This is also in a 28 qt. box. I would probably not keep 1.1 or 1.2 in anything smaller than a CB70 or 41qt. box to give more room.

I favor the Sterilite 105 tubs for all my snakes except the bulls and big gopher, and tiny babies, who get big screen cages and 10 gallon tanks. Joining the 105s together with the RV sewer hose doubles the space, and I can put the aspen quite deep. The only problem I sometimes have is when somebody wants to hole up in the tube and not come out. Not really a problem, as I can pull one end off and get the snake to come out. The fittings are press fit into the tub wall and fit snugly. I used a Dremel bit to cut the opening.

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Whats the floor space on those tubs? The 28qt and 31 qt. sterlites and V35 tubs are all around 23 inches by 17 inches or so. However, they all average around 6 inches tall. No big deal for the colubrids but it does cut down on vertical space that could be used. I do like the way you connect separate tubs to expand caging though. It allows the animals to access completely separate areas for the most part and I can see that being very valuable in a community set up. Reminds me of the old Habitrail Hamster cages LOL!!!

The 105s' are about 16 inches by 26 inches or 416 square inches floor space. But actually that is a bit more for the snakes, as they tend to live mostly on top of the aspen, and since the tubs are bigger towards the top, they get more space. The tubs are 13 inches deep. The snakes seem to like to be able to stretch up as well as out, so the higher tubs work well.

Happy campers this morning. This is the older trio. The younger trio, the females are in one hide and the little male is in a separate hide.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

man these are beautiful

Thanks!

My newest pyro, a tiny baby. He is by himself until he puts on some size. I am planning on getting another female or two for him so I can do another communal trio next year.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

You will find that pyros are extremely communal. They are very happy to hang out with one another in humid hides and such.

I kept a pair of 3 yr olds with two yearlings - all in a 3ft Neodesha cage. They did great but outgrew the cage quickly. Pyros can get darn big, longer than I had thought. Great snakes, ultra calm kingsnakes.

You will really enjoy watching them as you keep them together. Beats the single drawer life.
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Mark

Already this communal arrangement has simplified their care. I took them all out to offer food, but nope, they are all done for the season eating wise. It is much more enjoyable having them together.
This is what I eventually want to put them in:

FB Reptile Rack 96" Jumbo Complete
$2,539.00 (at this price I will be building my own version of this.)
This may seem a bit overkill, but it beats trying to build a mountain rock outcropping in my living room! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire