Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was getting the Kahl receipt out of my invoice box to send off to the gentleman who purchased my last two Kahl Possible het Pied males, and it got me thinking...is there any value to "paperwork?"

After a little thinking on the subject of paperwork, which has been a topic on several posts recently, I came to the conclusion that paperwork has very little value. Here are my reasons for thinking this.

#1-If you need paperwork on an animal you are buying, a het or possible het in all likelihood, how much confidence do you really have in the person SELLING you the animals? I am going to give examples: I have het pairs of Pieds, Axanthics, and Caramels from the Sutherlands, which came with a feeding card that says what morph they are, but I did not ask Dan to write me a novel stating the genetics of the animal, the parents, ask for pics etc. Why not, because I trust the Snakekeepers at their word, or would not have purchased hets from them in the first place. The same goes for Sharp, I purchased an albino male and 2 het females from him. If I needed paperwork to make me feel good about the transaction, I would not have done it!

2#-I am no lawyer, or legal expert, but would "paperwork" stand up in court? With hets, say a 100% het pair of albinos, you did not get any albinos from breeding the het pair for 2 yrs in a row, and now are doubting the legetimacy of your het adults...a good lawyer for the person who sold them to you could argue the statistics that is takes X amount of years to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that you indeed do not have hets. Now, say it is 6 yrs before you can "legally" say your hets are not hets, what is the statute of limitations on something like this?

3#-Is paperwork something that makes one feel "better" about buying hets from small breeders? Break off a phone call

4#-My plan is this when it comes to selling the hets and possibles that I produce: I will send a pic of the adult homozygous animal that was the parent of any 100% het animal I sell. I will send a pic of the clutch, the entire clutch, hopefully with a homozygous animal in the clutch, for any 66% possible hets. I will not have any 50% possibles to sell, all my males are homozygous animals.

What do you think? Am I missing something, do you agree, dissagree? Any comments, will pics of the het or poss het do any good? I think they might, especially if someone wants to sell a het they bought to someone else. What if you have a receipt stating 1.1 possible hets, no pic, and they PROVE OUT?? You keep one of the homozygous males, and want to sell your now 100% proven het male, all you have is paperwork that says 1.1 possible hets HMmmmmmmm.

Dave

I cant put in an opinion about the paper work question because i'm not a breeder, but your snake is very impressive. IMO

But for what its worth, I would agree with you. If you trust who your dealing with, you really shouldnt need any papers, except maybe a health certificate showing that the animal was in good health when purchased and there are no known illnesses.
But like i said, I'm not a breeder, or an expert.

Personally, I think it is simply wise, sound business practice to back everything up with paperwork. Especially if you're dealing with expensive animals. Trust has very little to do with it.

If I buy a pair of 100% het animals, I want a reciept saying that's exactly what I purchased. Now...the paper itself doesn't guarantee that the animals are 100%, but if they turn out NOT to be, then that little piece of paper will hold the seller responsible.

Sure, you will only buy from someone you trust...but even then, mistakes can happen, or the specifics of a certain deal can be forgotten in the years it takes your snakes to mature and produce offspring.

You can be sure that disputes DO come up, and not just because of unscrupulous breeders. If an honest breeder sells a 66% het, but doesn't offer or keep any paperwork detailing the transaction, then the buyer can come back someday and claim he was ripped off because his snake turns out to be "normal."

It just doesn't make sense in todays litigious society to NOT back up every single detail with paperwork on both sides.

Just my .02
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

>>You can be sure that disputes DO come up, and not just because of unscrupulous breeders. If an honest breeder sells a 66% het, but doesn't offer or keep any paperwork detailing the transaction, then the buyer can come back someday and claim he was ripped off because his snake turns out to be "normal."

In that case, why would the breeder do anything other than say 'tough luck'? (Just curious) If I ever sold possible hets, and a buyer came back later and claimed he only got a normal, I'd say, well, that's part of buying possible hets. The buyer might have a case, however, if I sold a large number of possibles that didn't prove out (vastly out of proportion to ones that did)
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

I was trying to point out that a seedy buyer might CLAIM to have bought a 100% het, when in fact the breeder had said it was a only a possible het. If the breeder can't produce copies of reciepts or other documents, the buyer could sue. At the very least, it could be highly inconvenient, and it could cost a lot of money.

I'm sure it doesn't happen often...but it only needs to happen once for either a breeder or a buyer to get burned in court. The "burden of proof" in small-claims court is not so high as it is in criminal court. A simple contract or reciept with the party's signatures on it could prevent a lot of misunderstandings or just plain cheating.

It just doesn't make sense to me that people who are dealing with high-dollar snakes wouldn't make every effort to keep meticulous records. I certainly hope when I can finally get that pied that I'm dreaming of (or hets), that whoever I buy it from will not be offended when I ask for paperwork to back up the sale.

I've sold several possible hets to later find out they are being re-sold as hets. I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe they just didn't understand rather than having been outright dishonest. At any rate, I think some sort of documentation might have helped prevent confusion in someone who really doesn't understand the whole possible het thing (I’m starting to understand that there are a lot of such people).

Randy,

I agree. Also, if these guys were being sold and someone checked with you, you could validate their claims with a valid paper trail.
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Jay A. Martin

Dave some very good points. But on the brighter side I bought some hets from a undisclosed person as of right now at least. I didnt have to prove them out and wait the time to find out they were normals. I found out from the guy that supposdly produced these animals and he told me he never sold a animal to this guy I bought these hets(normals) from. Anyways the amount I spent was close to 4000. Which was mostly paid is US money orders. I havent got my money back yet but I the guy is suppose to have me taken care of in the REAL near future. If he doesnt I have been to a lawyer already and with US postal money orders and for the amount he is looking at several felony charges. I guess the good thing that happened here is the breeder he said he got them from knows him and is amazed at what he sold me. And they are willing to stand behind me 100% So there is hope if you do get burned but like my case its going to take and money to do so luckily I am patient and have some money to toss around to see this guy get what he deserves if he dont pay me

Bryan

www.exoticballpythons.com

important. I also think if someone could provide pictures of the sire and Dame that would be cool.Especially with hets. If the Daddy looks a certain way you can look for this in your animals.Thats for those of us that do this for fun.
The legality of paperwork, there is none more than likely. And who do you trust, people with a good reputation. But, people like ourselves are honest I'm sure, but how is someone going to know this for sure.
We know the top 15 breeders and a few more that we will deal with always. So who is going to buy from us? Maybe the small breeder needs to try harder.
Back to the question though, it is helpful but worthless and easily forged.

I think there is a certain amount of value in "paperwork" - even if its only attribute is to make the buyer feel a little safer. Although, you should not look at paperwork as a way to make yourself feel better, but rather, another nail in the coffin of success - the more marks you can get, the better.

>#1-If you need paperwork on an animal you are buying, a het or possible het in all likelihood, how much confidence do you really have in the person SELLING you the animals?

I'm not sure it really boils down to confidence - at least not entirely. What happens if you buy a 100% het Axanthic from the SK and then need to sell it. I think it would be easier to sell if you had that paperwork. Although, in a case like this, I always check with the original breeder. And "Yes, I sold a snake to Billy Bob" is not sufficient. I want to see a picture of the snake you sold to him to see if he's selling me the same snake.

>2#-I am no lawyer, or legal expert, but would "paperwork" stand up in court?

With PH, I'd say no unless you can prove dishonesty. For example, Reptile-ABC Co. sells you 1.0 66% Neon Ball. 5 years later you find out that this ball originated from Bob's Balls and it was from a normal X normal. The animal was misrepresented and I'm confident you would win. Although, it's a considerable hassle but you can also get court costs awarded as well. I feel it's best to avoid this by being honest, and smart - as you can be. There are many that have the misconception that you cannot win these battles in court. The reality is (I was a pre-law major in college), many of these can be won, but the cost often exceeds the rewards.

>3#-Is paperwork something that makes one feel "better" about buying hets from small breeders? Break off a phone call

You should make a phone call anyway. But unless it's recorderd, you have no proof. And there are plenty of fast talkers out there.

>4#-My plan is this when it comes to selling the hets and possibles that I produce: I will send a pic of the adult homozygous animal that was the parent of any 100% het animal I sell. I will send a pic of the clutch, the entire clutch, hopefully with a homozygous animal in the clutch, for any 66% possible hets. I will not have any 50% possibles to sell, all my males are homozygous animals

Personally, I like having both parents at the top of the page and the offspring (being sold) in the middle, below. Under each photo is identifying text - JAM010103 - 100% Het Albino. I keep a copy on file so in the future if someone wants to verify an animal, I can check my files. This protects the buyer AND seller.

>What if you have a receipt stating 1.1 possible hets, no pic, and they PROVE OUT?? You keep one of the homozygous males, and want to sell your now 100% proven het male, all you have is paperwork that says 1.1 possible hets.

This is where your documentation helps. These were sold as PH and they proved to be 100%. Now you need to prove, you proved them out

>Personally, I think it is simply wise, sound business practice to back everything up with paperwork.

I could not agree more.

>Back to the question though, it is helpful but worthless and easily forged.

Verify with the original breeder. I bought 2 PH Pieds from a guy but verified the breeding with the original breeder. If you are buying from the breeder, get proof - ask for pictures of the homo animal (in unusual poses). If no homo animal, then you will have to do a little more work.

All in all, I think paperwork (paper trail) can be a good thing. What if you mix up your own stock and need to know who is who? Let's say one of your cage cleaners swap to snakes on accident? But it's not the "end all, be all".

I keep and provide pics. I think paperwork is very viable and very important.
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Jay A. Martin

No statue of limitations on fraud. Or murder, rape and a few others. Im in Canada but its the same laws in the States.

Just inputing,

Dave