Reptile & Amphibian Forums

*worth the long read*

Just recently had a dragon that pooped out a fairly large amount of blood. Ashen
He became lethargic with no appetite.

My remedy was the following: slightly higher bulb installed to raise his temps

I then treated him with 1 panacur dosage according to his weight.

I waited two days... he did not poop. Then I treated him with albon (proper dosage according to his weight) 1 dosage...

I offered him veggies and such he would not take them. I used probiotics in a syringe and gave him a decent amount a couple times.

I offered him water and gave him a bath... he drank forever.

He got one more dose of Albon.

Then I waited and flushed him using probiotics... wet runny stool.

He would not eat for me for several days...

eventually took some greens.

Finally, I assisted him in eating several roaches.

Wrapped him in a towel and pulled the nape of his neck puttinIg roaches into his mouth where he would take them then and chew them down.

I then let him digest and pass a stool. This was to recharge his digestive tract.

Take note:

I am meticulous about their enclosures. It is cleaned every day.

They are kept bathed and clean also.

As a few days passed...

He eventually started eating greens earlier this week.

Then two days ago he took (by himself) about 10 full sized roaches on his own.

Yesterday, he ate a pinkie and several roaches. (by himself)

He is looking so much better and has his energy back.

I have done this same thing combining these two medications and alternating with my two other dragons and have seen great results.

I know panacur is for worms. Used in conjunction with the albon it is an effective treatment tool. This method broadens the spectrum of treatable pathogens and single celled organisms.

My vet is certified for reptiles but does this: fecal then recommended treatment for the parasites she finds. simple process that's why I use my own scope now and treat accordingly

I have been keeping dragons since 2003 when I was in Tennessee and have had reptiles all my life since I was about 10 years old where I successfully sexed garter snakes and mated them in a tank in upstate NY. this was 23 years ago

Since...I have had corn snakes, numerous boas, pythons, Savannah Monitors, iguanas, lizards, skinks, salt and fresh water...fish, dogs, cats, arachnids, venomous reptiles (eastern diamond back rattlers, and pygmy rattlers that I have caught by hand and relocated.

Some medications may be harmful or even fatal if alternated and given.

I have tried the combo of panacur and albon alternation and it was thee most effective treatment I have found yet for parasites.

Panacur may be used for worms specifically to treat alone. When alternated with albon it creates a deathly digestional tract treatment for parasites.

I will be testing Ashen again for parasties doing fecal floats and treating accordingly. So far he has come up clean last week when I tested him I could find nothing parasite wise.

If you choose... dont believe me... stick to the regurgitated A-typical treatment methods.

I offer you what what worked miraculously for me and my dragons.

My vet does the following: a fecal

Then reads what the medications say they treat and follows the recommended dosages.

Below is a picture of Ashen from last weekend.

Hard to believe only a few weeks prior he looked half dead and pooping blood.

You dont have to believe me... I have no reason to lie. He is one of my all time favorite dragons and is back to his normal self.

Look how skinny he is here:

He is fattening back up though I assure you.

good day enlightened keepers

Go read in some other reptile forums where they keep boas and such.

Some of those keepers who have been working with boas for 15-20 years do the same thing I have mentioned and overlap the drugs.

I would not recommend doing this with any medication other than the one I have had success with for dragons.

albon/panacur

thanks
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slightly higher *wattage* bulb installed

just reread the post
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Have you done any long time studies on the effects using two drugs, one of which is the correct medicine to use for parasites, to treat where only one is necessary?

Bringing out too high toxicity in animals or using more drug than is necessary can be very hard on an animals kidneys and other organs...which may do damage not readily noticed or which may show up months down the road.

The value of the old 'tried and true' is just that, they have been tried, tested and found safe and effective. New 'experimental' treatments have not had all the potential side effects and complications beaten out of them yet...so even though they may work in some cases, they may not work in all cases. Thus personally I would rather go by a long time established method of treatment which works and has little likelihood of failure, than a new method that sounds questionable. Nor have I heard of any snake treatment for internal parasites that uses both those drugs.

However I am going to keep this new method in mind...so I can ask highly qualified vets/breeders/keepers if they have tried the method or if they consider it a valid one to use. Till I feel confident its safe, its definitely not a round of treatment i would recommend, especially to somebody who has no experience on how to give medication to reptiles.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

I have no other experience then the past 4 years treating for parasites and my vet who prescribed me to use panacur for coccidia (not a proper diagnosis or treatment medication) and charged me 150 dollars for treatment.

That in culmination with three successful treatments I have done with phenomenal results.

All three dragons are eating well and doing amazing. Ashen was recently treated and is making a speedy recovery using this method.

As always... there will be nay sayers.

Let me ask you...

Your vet keep 10 adult bearded dragons for the past 5-6 years?

You already mentioned that you have no experience with medications and have never brought your dragon to the vet for parasites.

But ask and see what they I'm curious.
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The tried and true treatment you mention is not effective... I have tried and tested it many times. Nearly nothing in and by itself will kill coccidia.

That's the issue!

It leaves gaps in the treatment and the parasites quickly return.

I misread your post and felt you were saying that I personally had no experience but after rereading I see that you mean it would not be recommended for others to use who have no experience.

I am so used to being berated on this forum for anything I interject with it has become almost a knee jerk reaction for me to get defensive.

Go ask though.

The lady who recommended me to try this method runs a reptile consultation service does prescribes and sells medication.

Evidently she, as well as many others on other forums are incorporating such treatments.

Answer me this?
If the other method is so tried and true why have people deemed that it is acceptable for dragons to have coccidia and that it is virtually impossible to cure?

My method works against coccidia. I have tried and tested it.

This I would recommend for advanced keepers who have tried the normal methods with limited success like I have.

thank you for the debate
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I have done a little research into coccidia treatments...for dogs and cats, the use of albon seems to be the standard treatment for coccidia. However I am not clear whether Albon directly affects coccida cysts, or just combats diseases that can be caused by the presence of coccidia in the system. Many parasites can cause secondary infections and diseases...usually by weakening the immune system of the animal.

A very sick dragon with heavy loads of coccidia I can see responding very well with a combination of Albon and panacur..as one deals with the parasite, and the other deals with any secondary infections caused by a weakened immune system.

An experienced vet may prescribe both or one after the other in a severe care of coccidia in a sick animal.

I never had a need to bring my dragons to a vet...as they have always been healthy, though I do try and get a standard checkup once a year and so far I had no parasite issues. The only parasites I had troubles with were external, snake mites, which I was able to eradicate after a couple months diligence and very effective mite spray.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

thanks...

I implore you to ask your vet and have them do some research into it.

All I can offer is my first hand testimony... it worked in three different cases for me.

I had a dragon die a couple years back using only one of the meds alone and not in conjunction alternating with the other.

She was a huge healthy ravenous female that suddenly had bloody stool. She was treated for coccidia and consequently perished.

I refuse to let the pathogens take another of my beloved dragons.

The dual treatment panacur/albon worked extremely well for me.
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It was only about 4 months ago that you posted one of your dragons had been diagnosed with coccidia and you had treated it with panacur as instructed by your vet you claimed. Everyone here told you this was the wrong drug. This can all be verified by checking past posts by you. Now you claim you have been doing this for 7 years? You really are incredible. Therefore your current posts should be taken with a whole bucketload of sand.

Now you come up with some blending of the proper drugs along with improper drugs and claim that you have the new cure for coccidia when a proper cure has been around for decades.

The treatment you performed was incorrect worked for now because you were lucky. You should not have assist fed them. You should have performed the correct treatment with the correct drug in the correct dosage and supported the dragon during treatment.

I have no choice in how you treat your animals, but you should not recommend these risky treatments to others here who really care for their animals long term wellbeing.

On 5/30/10 you wrote " I had a dragon get infected and it was present in her stool. She was treated with panacur."

Strange how then you didn't know about Albon but now you are an expert on drug interactions.

And when told that Panacur was for Pinworms not coccidia here's what you replied, "Yes the vet prescribed me panacur for coccidiosis... I would not make that up. Have no need to fabricate that. She told me it was effective against all parasites and worms."

I somehow don't feel all of your experience, but I am impressed you feel you have become an expert in 4 months.

Oh and don't forget you posted that you did your "first fecal float" on June 9, 2010.

Sounds like an expert to me.

I have tried a great many things. Most of which I dont bother mentioning on this forum to save myself comments from the peanut gallery.

Consider it like the oracle from the Matrix...

I tell you what you need to hear, and that is all.

Honestly though:

You have too much time on your hands... it makes me chuckle.
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To be honest, I would go by what BDlvr suggests when it comes to medications for bearded dragons. For one thing he is far more consistent and has been around here for quite a long time.

I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt...especially since chronic sleeplessness often leaves me with no memory of what i read on the forums from one day to the next...much less recalling in detail a post from a few months ago...however, now that they have been brought up I do recall you posting your very first fecal float etc....and every dragon you owned, it seems (or at least those you have now) have had bad flare ups of coccidia...(I can't remember if these are dragons you bought from people who didn't care for them at all, or just became sick while in your care).

BDLvr has been rescuing and treating bearded dragons who look like goners to me...and had great success in getting them to make full come backs. He is also free in admitting when some don't pull through, despite his best efforts.

He also brings up a good point..something I was trying to find out earlier today but had other things needing my attention so I never did finish researching it...how ALbon and panacur react to one another...if at all. Some drugs can have serious side effects if used at the same time...some may simply negate or lessen the effectiveness of each other or one of them.

ALbon is used with dogs and cats to treat coccidiosis and as I mentioned before, I wasn't able to find out if it works against a disease caused by having high levels of coccidiosis (I think I did read the treatment didn't kill the coccidia cysts..but prevented it from reproducing...allowing the animal's natural immune system to deal with them)

By all means go ahead and post alternative treatments, but make it clear that its something you are experimenting with, so people know there is no true scientific research behind the treatment...just raw trial and error (or at least that is how it sounds like to me from your above descriptions).

just as Parazap isn't intended to be used as a 'cure' for parasites...it does help the animals own body's immune system to fight it off, by promoting good gut flora..but I doubt it will help a severely infested animal with a compromised immune system.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

It is an experimental thing that I have tried with three different dragons.

That I can swear to.

I did not mention it earlier because I knew I would receive a bunch of flack for it.

This last time with Ashen was miraculous though.

He ate so many roaches on his own and even a pinkie for me within not even two weeks after treatment and less than a month after pooping messy blood (a good deal of it too) becoming lifeless lethargic.

Not for anything but...

Bdlvr himself has mentioned a number of times that coccidia is nearly untreatable and that dragons have them in their systems and it's nearly commonplace for them. untreatable

We spun back and forth and I told him they should have none at all and that it should be treated and killed.

That is the experts advice? come on now

If this method had an adverse effect then I would have three dead dragons and none of them would be healthy thriving and eating like they are.

All three dragons have great appetites and are eating awesome now!

I am sparing with the meds believe me.

I dont like using meds.... I refrain from it and use lots of fluids during and after treatment.

I know it runs against the grain.

When you have a sickly dying dragon infested with parasites pooping blood. You will try anything. I tried the standard a-typical treatment method... it did nearly nothing.

Why do you think I doubled up and started reading more into it?

Regurgitating the same old keeping methods from 8 years ago does nothing advance the keeping of these gorgeous creatures.

Why lose them and let them suffer... when more can be done?
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I never said Coccidia is untreatable. It is effectively treated using time tested methods. I stated and backed up my statement with a quote by renowned reptile veterinarian Dr. Doug Mader that coccidia in low levels need not be treated.

My past quotes of yours are clear that you are not experienced enough to make the recommendations you do. You are experimenting on your dragons without using any scientific methods. You also claim to have done this on 3 dragons in the last 3 months or so.

For all we know, your dragons could pass away in the next few months for unknown reasons because of damage that was inflicted during your experiments.

I also would consider this. I have 25 permanent resident dragons and the last time I treated any dragon for coccidia was over 2 years ago. This also includes a substantial amount of rescues and rehabs. that have passed through here. As a point of reference, in that same time period I've had surgery performed on at least 8 dragons. In addition, I've had to treat eye infections, growths, abscesses, tail issues, injuries, stomatitus, dystocia, and other problems I can't remember right now.

Since coccidia is such an unusual event here with so many more animals I would really consider what you are doing wrong there to cause you to have to treat 3 animals in the last few months.

Hey sweetheart... I spend literally hours every day with my dragons.

I clean and clean and pull everything out once a week if not more from their enclosures. I have spent thousands of dollars on them.

Im not sure how one of my dragons contracted coccidia originally but it spreads like wild fire. The three I have treated have clean fecals now.

People that have numerous dragons have issues with parasites you can believe that.

I can almost guarantee that no one puts more effort into the dragons care. I have 14 dragons and spend about 2-4 hours every day cleaning, feeding, and caring for them.

Once a week everything gets pulled out of their cages and bleached. I also use a natural germacide and wipe everything down. Bathe them constantly.

I challenge you to find a picture I have posted must be thousands now...

find one of my dragons with on them... or near poop.

Look hard! Think that comes without hours and hours of effort?

I have a whole section of my house dedicated to them. They have two rooms and a bathroom. I have spent thousands on them and theor care.

No one fights harder to keep them clean and healthy.

Parasites are an inherent and need to be dealt with.

Just ask the other forum expert... "nearly all dragons have them according to him." Difference is that when I find parasites doing my floats...

the dragon is treated and ridden of them.
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You'll never find any of my dragons near poop either and I have been doing this far longer than you. You don't impress me, you and your methods scare me. As a rescue I've seen the results of off the wall methods and strangely they all say it worked well for "them".

Lets see some pictures of these healthy vibrant animals of yours BDlvr.

I have seen nary a one.

Same pics of your enclosures over and over.

I have some of the healthiest hearty dragons around.

As I stated earlier about 3 different times. The lady who recommended this to me runs a dragon referral/rescue service and has been keeping them for the past 15 years. She is an influential member on the uvb meter group and has her own website.

She specifically told me in certain cases the medications are given simultaneously altering back and forth with fluids and at least 24 hours between dispensing the other medication. panacur/albon

Guess it comes from her issuing medications and selling medications over the past 10 years. I did my own research on it and found people in other forums doing similar treatments on red tailed boas.

Your tried and true methods are stale and dont work evidently because you already said... it's ok for them to carry some coccidia parasites.

Which it most certainly is not. Low level coccidia? haha that's a joke

How do you determine low level coccidia? Finding one inside of them is a good as finding 50 in their fecals. Tells you the same thing!!! They are present in the reptile.

Because you dwell in this forum and rescue bearded dragons dispensing internet flotsam information hardly makes you an expert.

There is no more damage to internal organs than anything else if your properly flushing with fluids. Lots of them as the are sulfa drugs and cause dehydration.

PS:

Your dragons arent in or around poop except that which you dont get after sifting it out of the sand.

I kept my dragons on sand already master keeper. It certainly is not the best substrate unless your cleaning it on a weekly basis. Completely changing it out. Which you most certainly do not.

So therefore your dragons wallow in fecal particulate 24/7.

Nice try on that one though.
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http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Meds.html

And while your at it look at the testimonies at the bottom. You'll see mine. Wayne

Flagyl and panacur is used sometimes too. Flagyl helps to restore their immune system.

Do some of your own research for once instead of regurgitating the same ol jargon over and over and over.

It gets old man!
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The fact of the matter is that many vets will prescribe you one medication and as soon as it is finished you will start another.

Such is the case with many medications used for treatment against hordes of parasites.

They actually embed themselves and lay oocyts in the intestinal wall. They go into a cryptonic dormant stae then can hatch at nearly any time and infest.

This can be at times of weakened immunity or during times of elevated stress.

It's better to pump vast amounts of medication into them over the course of weeks though according to your methodology?

What do you recommend? The fact is that it is not nearly a perfected science by people who are professionals in the field.

So dont nestle me up with your high and mighty medical expertise.
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Your testimonial has negative value. Be sure to notice her disclaimer.

These two sisters here are both a little over a year old now and are neglected as you can see. All my dragons are neglected.

And... I dont read anything that has to do with their well being. I dont consult anyone.

Medical or otherwise

The one just happens to be almost 500 grams now. Not sure how.

no tlc involved here at all
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Interesting how I quoted Dr. Doug Mader from one of his published books. He is the most respected reptile vet in the country. While you quote some mystery lady. Or are you just making that up too?

I've posted recent pictures of animals. You don't remember this one? Perhaps if you weren't so wrapped up in spamming the forum with pictures of your few dragons.

Using number of animals owned as a method to measure experience and knowledge, is completely unreliable. You don't need to own thousands of dragons to understand their care etc. And to be honest, you could own thousands of dragons and still not know much about their care...they just all happen to live in substandard conditions etc.

BDLvr has posted plenty of pictures of his dragons...he just doesn't have the time nor desire to post 20 pictures of his dragons a week. Nor do many people who are here. The breeders post their babies frequently and hold backs...to show what they are working on.

As BDLvr works with predominately rescued dragons, many pictures show dragons who are in poor health, as the pictures are taken near the time he gets them in. He does show 'after' shots of dragons who he nursed back to full health.

So, demanding more pictures, making it seem like not posting a huge amount of pictures must mean they don't know how to care for them..is just totally pointless.

I never had any problems with parasites with either of the two dragons I have owned.. and I definitely know I am not obsessive about keeping their cages clean... yet you, with your obsessive cleanliness, had several very bad outbreaks of coccidia...it makes me wonder whether your extensive cleaning is doing more harm than good... That having a totally clean environment is actually making your dragons even more susceptible to being infested with parasites, should they eat a contaminated cricket or something.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Well, we are going to see the effectiveness of Parazap on an infected animal. I am working with my vet on my new beardie. The last day of treatment is the 19th. He had very hight levels and the vet recommended treating with Albon. I don't like Albon because of its severity. I have used it before. So far, my little guy is very happy and healthy and has gained weight. Not being sick (coccidiosis), my Vet feels it is safe to try the homeopathic approach. I will post the results, but will not lower myself to the local "catfights" on here.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Your the man moonstones!

I will freely admit...

I have an aggressive nature, love Mixed Martial Arts, aggressive sports, wrestled and coached wrestling, was in the Army for 9 years. Also, I am most likely a touch obsessive compulsive as someone pointed out.

I am a fighter by nature. I dont mind ruffling up a few tail feathers if need be.

what can I say
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Lets see some new pics of your healthy thriving dragons BDlvr.

You own a 6.2 and 6.5 but know nothing about uvb.

That remains an unsolved enigma.
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I certainly know far more than you, who just bought your meters and microscope. If you care to remember you made your purchases after finding out I already had them. Glad to see you're trying to keep up with the Jones.

Why don't you get back to us in say 5 years when one of your dragons turn 6. Assuming that any can even live to that young an age. Strange you've already posted pictures of sick dragons that are only maybe a year old.

You always say you want new pictures from me. I've been doing this for a long time and all of my cages were built some time ago and are constantly maintained. They don't change, and are constructed with the right materials that lasts and can be completely disinfected and cleaned to new looking.

Lets see you've built 2 cages so far as I remember. You used MDF which is impossible to clean or disinfect. MDF is like cardboard and absorbs moisture and germs. But you've surely already found that out and just won't admit it. I've built 22 cages. You've got a lot of work ahead of you to catch up.

And don't you remember that I posted pictures of my recently completed Iguana enclosure?

as a veterinary technician I worry about the improper usage of albon, an antibiotic, could lead to antibiotic resistant bacteria for you in the future

in another post you said you know a "reptile consultant" who is PRESCRIBING stuff, if this person in not a DVM this ILLEGAL, I myself have to watch what I say on forums like this, would not risk legal action treating or advising treatment even though I know the proper dosages and such

as for the bitterness between you and BDlvr, it has just about got me to stop coming here, this crap is worse the the monitor forum used to be!
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hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!

Actually Albon and Panacur can be dispensed without a presciption and are sold all over the internet. Antibiotics like Fortaz or Baytril cannot be dispensed without a presciption.

Im willing to squash it and let it go if you can BDlvr.

We all have bigger fish to fry... I dont wish to keep churning the water for the sake of others on this forum.

So for what it's worth bdlvr... peace my man.

I will be civil with you from here on out and make no more snide comments... hopefully you can do the same.

best regards

sea dragon

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I have no personal issue with you.

Whether it's from you or anyone else, if harmful incorrect advise is given I will dispute it. You really need to get a grip on where you are. It is OK to be just starting out. We've all been there. In a few years I will happily respect your opinions. Today it seems you try to make yourself out as an authority. And we both know your claims are exaggerated. If you continue to do this I have no choice but to point out the truth. As I have shown your posts are evidence of your experience and are verifiable.

I rescue reptiles from humans that didn't take care of them well. It's what I do. I come here only to help the animals, if other posters dislike me along the way so be it. Many posters contact me directly. This shows that my help and advise is appreciated and respected. It makes the years and thousands of hours I've invested in this forum worthwhile.

Like I said bdlvr, I will be civil from here on out as best I humanly can and make no personal jabs.

I apologize for any bitterness I may have caused to you and anyone on the forum.

You still come off as supercilious and condescending.

You need to work on that.

What degrees do you hold? Any?

Not everyone has had the ample copious amounts of time to spend 24/7 on this forum and analyze every nuance of reptile husbandry like you either.

You can correct me all you like sir.

I will do everything in my power to stay civil with you as I mentioned from here on out. Please work on being the same with me and lets leave it at that.

I have no personal issues with you either, but your persistent pretentious attitude is like nails on a chalkboard.

If you could be more humble and personable with people it would go a long way.

peace man
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