Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is the second Paradox Albino we've produced from the Albino Pied project this year. This guy is an Albino 100% het Pied. The other Paradox was an Albino Pied female. I was under the impression that these were very rare and not something one can purposely reproduce. Anyone else getting these? Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dan

Dan Wolfe Herpetoculture

Dan
That's awesome! I'd love to have one of those whether it was genetic or not. They are just so cool to look at. Nice work.
Matt Ozsvath
Lizards of Oz
www.lizardsofoz.com

i think we can now state that super cinnies have proven to consistently throw paradoxes, so why not other combos? it's possible this might be another?

gorgeous snake dan!

Hey Dan, great looking paradox....my question for you is this....
Are the paradox animals a full gene expression? Or does the paradox albino only act as a het would genetically?

Thanks Andy
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It is my understanding that it depends on what part of the genetic code made the reproduction organs. As I have been told a paradox like this is essentially a chimera. That is two separately fertilized eggs the combined creating one life. It is visible on the pattern here because of the contrast between the het and albino. The mixing of the genes would have happened within the body as well, the best thing to do is breed it to figure it out.
My friend was lucky enough to hatch one this year so we have been doing a ton of research!

Link

Thank you for an excellent answer!

I have never hatched or owned a paradox, but I am very well versed in genetics and somewhat versed in embryology. I thought I would never find a BP breeder who would understand the chimera concept of paradoxes, let alone appreciate the origin of the germline cells.

50 points!
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

*** Takes a bow***
Thank you very much.
I try to be a good student and learn all I can in this classroom of life!

Please don't take offense at this, but is the paradox in those two pictures dead?
Or dying?
It looks dead to me...
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www.strictlyballs.ca

No offense taken at all, bad pictures, bad camera and baby fresh out of the egg. I will work on getting happier pics soon though.

Where are the pics?
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www.strictlyballs.ca

She is in shed, will get pics when she is done

.

That snake is too beautiful for words... I'm at a loss....
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Teresa
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3.0 Dogs (2.0 Chihuahuas, 1.0 Toy Poodle)
1.5 Cats
1.0 Cockatiel
1.0 Indonesian Blue tongue skink

Ball Pythons
0.1 100% Het Albino (Watson)
1.0 Pastel (Sweets)
0.1 Spider (Daisy)
1.0 Albino

My good friend Chad Duggin seems to produce paradox balls every year. I will try to get him to go further in detail of what he thinks is going on. He was given a pair of balls that were PH albino. He bred them for the first time and got normal looking balls and 1 ball that was a normal pattern with bands of albino. The next season, he bred them back together and produced the same thing, all normal looking balls and 1 normal pattern ball with albino bands. The third year, he bred them againa...well...same results. Then this year he bred a male paradox back to the mom the results were all albinos and 1 het. I believe this season he plans on breeding a male paradox to a female paradox...that should give him the answers he is looking for and should prove for sure if the "Paradox" is genetic. I believe you can see his snakes and the story on his website. cdreptiles.com

I know a guy that said he made them 3 years in a row I think from the same adults....amel paradox.....they tell him it's not genetic....I told him yea...because THEY didn't do it.......if THEY did it...it would be the greatest thing since ready made peanut butter in a jar........
I told him...believe...and keep making them.........
man...I just thought of it...I should have told him to sell me one.....crap.....
LOL

beautiful snake...I love them things.....someday I'll hit it......(I got a lesserbee paradox this year!)....
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........JY

For new onlookers:

After many years trying to do paradox burmese breeding them backwards and forwards we came up with what we called 50/50's (half albino half normal) and albinos with black markings. These were established to be 100% het albinos and albinos by breeding.

After that long ordeal we got the first paradox albino sandboa which was a wc female. I discounted the paradox look completely. Years later of course I found that it was genetic and reproduced easily-though only with the albino/snow animals. You could not separate out the black spots and make a normal with black spots or an anery with black spots.

paradox albino sandboas

So this would imply that either it is genetically possible to force chimerism or that it is not a chimera situation at all? (maybe a combination of both?) Now I am confused, I thought I had this understood...

let me add to the chimera confusion.

early last year a paid a lot for a shatter pattern butter. not a paradox but a full butter with black/grey smudges all over. shatter pattern has proven to be genetic - so the thinking being that when i breed him to my mojave gal, i'd get the possibility of white snakes with grey black smudges - i love the idea of this. 8 eggs, i have 2 mojaves, no butters, no lucy's.

ok that could happen.

but because i thought these potential offspring would be so awesome, i bred this same shatter pattern butter to 2 albino hets, 2 pastels, and 2 cinnies. and he was my best breeder the whole year. he was insane, locking every time - so i know he was breeding solidly. but to be fair, calicos were put with these same 6 gals too. i now have calicos, pastel calicos, cinnacals, pastels, cinnamons, and 50% albino hets. what i don't have is one butter.

thats roughly 35 eggs, not one butter. because he was the only male put to that virgin mojave female and i have offspring, i know he's "working".

so is he a chimera? maybe it's not shatter pattern? i'll post a pic when i get home, but his reproductive system is carrying pure 100% normal wild-type ball python sperm. and on the outside he's a butter. to me, that says he's a chimera.

the snake in question... belly is pure white with a few graphite smudges. hard to tell in these lousy photos but they really are black and grey brown bits, not wild type pattern showing through.

to me ? I thought the shatter pattern would be from the front to the back ends of it...all even , all over.....looks more like a paradox butter to me....
.....good luck.....breed it again.....no butter....you got a problem.....

.
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........JY

michael cole says shatter pattern, so who am i to argue? but i agree with him anyway. michael if you read this, and had other shatter butters that you held onto or sold, i'd love to hear how your results have been.

i do plan on breeding him again. this year i had a pied het bred to visual pied, nine eggs - ONE VISUAL PIED. 8 hets.

i have the worst luck of any ball breeder i know. all of you who have great odds, it's because of me. i soak up all the bad odds.

Awe, you will have better luck. **does a good luck dance just for you** next year will be awesome!

IMO it's genetic.
The fact that it's not easy to reproduce, mean to me that the is more gene that get in it.

Genetic is not that simple as AA x NN etc....
Some genes can influence others, etc....

Why I think it's not a "chimera" cause that idea doesn't make much sense to me first. But the fact that you see quite a bit of them, and MOSTLY cause you see more ivory and albinos with this than anything else. Can't be that much coincidence.

It would also explain why some hatch more paradox (but not always) from the same pairing etc...
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love this world, don't hate it.

Chimeras are much more common in egg-laying species than live-bearing species. I actually wouldn't be too surprised if the strange "Jungles" and other odd patterns that seem to pop up in BPs aren't easily reproducible because they are Chimeras.

I will try to find the paper on it. Someone was doing genetic work on a species of lizard and found that up to 15% of the offspring are Chimeras. It kind of makes sense. A whole bunch of embryos getting sorted into eggs. It wouldn't be too hard for 2 to get stuck into an egg instead of one. And, if even only half the time they fused into a new individual...

Paradoxes may be reproducible because animals, just like people, can carry genes that make their offspring more likely to twin. So if you get a paradox which most likely carries the gene for higher than normal twinning, your chances are relatively good at getting another paradox if were to breed it to a Het or visual of that morph.

All just speculation of course. In the end, they are just pretty snakes
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

would love to see that paper you are talking about.

How do you know there is 2 snake in one ?
To me it doesn't make sense, but there is a lot that I don't know of.
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love this world, don't hate it.

That is AMAZING!!! I like this one better than the albino pied.