Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all

I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.

So nigrita is just a subspecies of californiae

Thanks a lot

Jonas

Interesting question! Unfortunately, I don't know the answer -- but I'll be interested in hearing from others.

In this state (TN), one must have permits to keep any native snake -- AND they don't recognize differences between subspecies. So ANY getula is illegal without that permit. So if californiae is a newly recognized species, that could be significant for a lot of snake keepers here!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I think He's asking if the Mexican blacks are now considered to be a subspecies of californias? Not sure though. But there are some Californias that are melanistic and may look completely black or close to it. The Baja I believe which is sometimes still called "natida". Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Californias are not one of my strong points.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I think He's asking if the Mexican blacks are now considered to be a subspecies of californias? Not sure though. But there are some Californias that are melanistic and may look completely black or close to it. The Baja I believe which is sometimes still called "natida". Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Californias are not one of my strong points.
>>-----
>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

Right -- but Californias themselves are a subspecies of getula (Lampropeltis getula californiae), unless they have been reclassified lately. Sooooo, if they have been elevated to full species status along with their own subspecies, that will affect a LOT of snakes being kept here in TN.
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----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Are you saying you can't keep any Common Kingsnake in Tenesee?
Crap, I almost moved there a while back, or at least I was seriously thinking about it.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Are you saying you can't keep any Common Kingsnake in Tenesee?
>>Crap, I almost moved there a while back, or at least I was seriously thinking about it.

IF you get a permit, you can keep them. But in order to get a permit, you must be able to prove that you obtained them "legally" -- which means receipts of purchase, or proof that you collected them in a state where that is legal. And if you bring them into the state, you also need an import permit. Since we have both getula and triangulum here, and since this state doesn't differentiate between subspecies, that includes almost all kings and milks.

I recently spoke directly with one of the lead law enforcement officers for the TN Wildlife Resources Agency, so I know this is current policy. And he wasn't even aware of most of the kingsnake species that DO exist. According to him, mountain kings were the ONLY ones that were exempt!
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----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Right -- but Californias themselves are a subspecies of getula (Lampropeltis getula californiae), unless they have been reclassified lately. Sooooo, if they have been elevated to full species status along with their own subspecies, that will affect a LOT of snakes being kept here in TN.

No one asked or said anything about elevating Californiae to full species status....
The guy asked if L. g. nigrita were classified as L. g. californiae now.......

If you live in Tennessee you cannot possess Triangulum and Getula Species without all the permits........That is why Zonata are can be kept without all the permits......

So....It will NOT affect any snake keepers in Tennessee if Nigrita were lumped with california at the sub specific level....
They will always be getula.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>No one asked or said anything about elevating Californiae to full species status....
>>The guy asked if L. g. nigrita were classified as L. g. californiae now.......

Actually, his exact words were: "I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.

So nigrita is just a subspecies of californiae"

1. You can't have a subspecies of another subspecies. You can only have subspecies of a species.
2. He said "Lampropeltis californiae", not "L.g. californiae".

>>If you live in Tennessee you cannot possess Triangulum and Getula Species without all the permits........That is why Zonata are can be kept without all the permits......

Yup, that's what I already said.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>No one asked or said anything about elevating Californiae to full species status....
>>>>The guy asked if L. g. nigrita were classified as L. g. californiae now.......
>>
>>Actually, his exact words were: "I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.
>>
>>So nigrita is just a subspecies of californiae"
>>
>>1. You can't have a subspecies of another subspecies. You can only have subspecies of a species.
>>2. He said "Lampropeltis californiae", not "L.g. californiae".

Thanks for the lesson. I needed that....LOL

Geez.......He left out the "g".......everyone else knew what he was asking.....Sorry it confused you.......

He was asking if L. g. nigrita was now lumped with L. g. californiae....That is all.....
And the answer is no.....And I don't know who these "some say it is" folks are.......

But L. g. nigrita may one day be lumped with L. g. splendida if it is ever changed.......Which it probably won't......

Yup...that's what I said......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>>>Actually, his exact words were: "I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.
>>>>
That would be combining two subspecies into one stand alone species......Removing californiae from the Getula family as well as Nigrita and then elevating a subspecies of getula to a species named Californiae.......Then placing both former nigrita and californiae in L. Californiae........LOL

How absurd to even think he meant that.........LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>>>>>Actually, his exact words were: "I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.
>>>>>>
>>That would be combining two subspecies into one stand alone species......Removing californiae from the Getula family as well as Nigrita and then elevating a subspecies of getula to a species named Californiae.......Then placing both former nigrita and californiae in L. Californiae........LOL

1. Getula isn't a family. It's a species. Colubridae is the family involved here.
2. Subspecies are granted full species status on a fairly regular basis.
3. Subspecies are regularly combined as new data is evaluated.

I don't know why you're trying to make such a big deal out of this. The OP unintentionally used inaccurate terminology, and the inaccuracy has been explained. No need for drama.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

No drama.......LOL

You are right.....
But it's been many a years since Lampropeltis have been moved around.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>But it's been many a years since Lampropeltis have been moved around.......

That's not actually true. For example, the Appalachicola king (L.g. meansi) was only added in 2006, and the species L. webbi in 2005. And if you go back just a little farther, there were several subspecies of L. triangulum added in the late 70's. And then, of course, I keep hearing about possibly moving elapsoides to full species status. Reclassification is never-ending!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>But it's been many a years since Lampropeltis have been moved around.......
>>
>>That's not actually true. For example, the Appalachicola king (L.g. meansi) was only added in 2006,

yep....we still call it goini.....LOL

and the species L. webbi in 2005.

Know all about it.....

And if you go back just a little farther, there were several subspecies of L. triangulum added in the late 70's.

That was a long time ago to me.......30 years.....

And then, of course, I keep hearing about possibly moving elapsoides to full species status.

Just like we hear about lots of other stuff that may or may not happen......

Reclassification is never-ending!

True.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>And if you go back just a little farther, there were several subspecies of L. triangulum added in the late 70's.
>>
>>That was a long time ago to me.......30 years.....

You young whipper snapper.....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>You young whipper snapper.....

LOL....I was born in 1971......LOL
I'm an old man at 39 now......hehe
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

You guys are bored aren't you? I joined the Marines in '71 you pup. LOL
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Hope this helps.

BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. M. Melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. D. Deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. L. Lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. M. Lodingi Black Pines
1.0 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.0 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings

>>You guys are bored aren't you?

Avoiding real work! LOL!

>>I joined the Marines in '71 you pup. LOL

He's a mere hatchling!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>You guys are bored aren't you?
>>
>>Avoiding real work! LOL!
>>
>>>>I joined the Marines in '71 you pup. LOL
>>
>>He's a mere hatchling!

I know....I know....
I am forever 39 now......Never 40 or more....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Thanks for the lesson. I needed that....LOL

You're welcome.

>>
>>Geez.......He left out the "g".......everyone else knew what he was asking.....Sorry it confused you.......

That's why I was interested in getting clarification. Inaccurate use of terminology often leads to confusion!

....while we're on the subject, I'll mention that we also have L. calligaster in parts of this state -- so we can't keep any of their subspecies without a permit, either!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

So what Lampropelti you keep without permits in Tennesee except for Zonata? Pyromelana?

Must be tough there......I am sure many are breaking the law.

I live in a city that has a city ordinance against all pythons, boas and monitors.
I have broke the law once or twice by keeping a boa and a python or two, but haven't in 8 years or so....I have too much to lose now.......

But there are folks that openly state they live in Corpus Christi, Texas and keep boas and pythons.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>So what Lampropelti you keep without permits in Tennesee except for Zonata? Pyromelana?

Zonata, pyromelana, alterna, ruthveni, webbi, mexicana. Of those, I personally only have mexicana. And yes, you can see "illegal" snakes of various species advertised on Craigslist nearly every day!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>So what Lampropelti you keep without permits in Tennesee except for Zonata? Pyromelana?
>>
>>Zonata, pyromelana, alterna, ruthveni, webbi, mexicana. Of those, I personally only have mexicana. And yes, you can see "illegal" snakes of various species advertised on Craigslist nearly every day!

I wish you could have webbi....But since they were recognized as a new species (Bryson, Dixon & Lazcano 2005) after the Lacey Act ammendment (Late 1980s...i forget exact date) they are too illegal to have...Not just in Tennessee but in the entire United States........Because all would have to be illegally collected and imported....Lacey Act and CITES violations.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

BTW...
What subspecies of Mexicana to you have?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>BTW...
>>What subspecies of Mexicana to you have?

I have one male thayeri. But I don't have any lineage on him, so far all I know he could be a hybrid.

Here's a pic from seven months ago --

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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>BTW...
>>>>What subspecies of Mexicana to you have?
>>
>>I have one male thayeri. But I don't have any lineage on him, so far all I know he could be a hybrid.
>>
>>Here's a pic from seven months ago --
>>

Very pretty.....
You need to get a female for him.....
Thayeri are addicting.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Very pretty.....
>>You need to get a female for him.....
>>Thayeri are addicting.......

Thanks!

I really like them and all their variations -- but I've got too many snakes as it is! I only talked myself into getting him because I was already buying a different snake from this breeder, and I don't believe in wasting shipping charges on just one snake.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>I wish you could have webbi....But since they were recognized as a new species (Bryson, Dixon & Lazcano 2005) after the Lacey Act ammendment (Late 1980s...i forget exact date) they are too illegal to have...Not just in Tennessee but in the entire United States........Because all would have to be illegally collected and imported....Lacey Act and CITES violations.......

Good point!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

the zoos will let some out eventually, just like everything else. Also, no doubt some will come in from Europe, just have to be patient.

>>the zoos will let some out eventually, just like everything else. Also, no doubt some will come in from Europe, just have to be patient.

I hope so......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

MBK's are still "L.g.nigrita", and Cal. kings are still "L.g.californiae".

What you might be thinking of is nigrita simply being a melanistic form of splendida?, and that might actually very well be the case. But nothing has changed pertaining to the other subspecies you mentioned.

Eventually getula might be "lumped" into several geographic categories, but as of now that hasn't happened.

Like Jorge mentioned, there are solid black forms of L.g.californiae, but they are definitely NOT nigrita, they are still very much a natural morph of Cal. king.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree Doug....
If there was any Re-Classification to be done it would be lumping Nigrita with Splendida not Californiae.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Should this "lumping" of the U.S. geographical regions ever take place, nigrita would certainly be in the "splendida" grouping.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Should this "lumping" of the U.S. geographical regions ever take place, nigrita would certainly be in the "splendida" grouping.

The paper that Jonas linked to actually does appear to place them with californiae. {shrug}

It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Hi all
>>
>>I was wondering if Lampropeltis getula nigrita is now Lampropeltis californiae, some say it is.
>>
>>So nigrita is just a subspecies of californiae

The "some say it is" person is probably someone that crossed a L. g. california with a L. g. nigrita and is trying to sell it to you, correct?

LMAO!!!!!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Wow a lot of action in a short time

Just to clarify some things. I wrote my question in a hurry, sorry.

What i ment was:
I have read that Lampropeltis getula californiae has been given full species status.
So it´s just Lampropeltis californiae now. And that nigrita is now considered a subspecies of Lampropeltis californiae.

It´s the same with holbrooki, splendida, and nigra. They have all been given full species status.

getula = eastern
nigra = black
splendida = desert
holbrooki = speckled
californiae = californian wich should include nigrita.

Take a look at this link: http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/1302.pdf

Jonas

Ah-HAH!!

Thanks Jonas!

Nanny nanny boo boo, John!

I really gotta go get SOME work done.....grumble grumble.....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That paper is CRAP.....LOL
There is no way they all should be divided and given Species status......

They are all getula.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>That paper is CRAP.....LOL

Yeah, that terrible fly-by-night journal "Zootaxa"....ya never can believe anything they say.......
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I just skimmed the abstract for that paper. It looks like they're arguing that the species SHOULD be divided -- but they're not saying that it HAS been divided, formally.

It'll be interesting to see what happens!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Exactly!,...that is simply a PROPOSAL of what "might" take place. And another possibility is californiae will be categorized all by itself.

I think this idea is pretty damn ridiculous myself. If this happens it will only make things far more complicated in my opinion and simply send everyone's head spinning!..HAHAA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I think this idea is pretty damn ridiculous myself.

I'd love it. But you know that even if the "powers that be" DO decide to accept it, it'll take years and years and years....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That's CRAP!!!!!!
I hate the idea......
But who am I?

They are all freakin getula.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>They are all freakin getula.......

They've got an interesting chart showing the estimated times of divergence of their proposed species. Very interesting.

I'd love it if this did get formally recognized. It would put ALL the "getula" species, except for nigra, outside of TN. Yippee!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>They are all freakin getula.......
>>
>>They've got an interesting chart showing the estimated times of divergence of their proposed species. Very interesting.
>>
>>I'd love it if this did get formally recognized. It would put ALL the "getula" species, except for nigra, outside of TN. Yippee!

Yeah....Let's screw up EVERYTHING just to help out that little ole state they call Tennessee......lol

What about Floridana?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Yeah....Let's screw up EVERYTHING just to help out that little ole state they call Tennessee......lol

Who cares about the rest of the world anyway??

>>What about Floridana?

They put it with getula.

"Synonymy: This species comprises the previously recognized subspecies L. g getula, L. g. floridana and L. g. meansi, as well as the historically recognized subspecies L. g. goini and L. g. sticticeps. The nominate subspecies was first designated by Cope (1875)."
-----
----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

So Tennessee would have to change their law to protect their native Nigra?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>So Tennessee would have to change their law to protect their native Nigra?

Nope. Any species whose native range includes any part of TN is protected, including all of its subspecies. So nigra would be protected no matter what it's called.
-----
----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

O.....I.....C....
I thought the law stated Triangulum and Getula as of now......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Wow a lot of action in a short time
>>
>>Just to clarify some things. I wrote my question in a hurry, sorry.
>>
>>What i ment was:
>>I have read that Lampropeltis getula californiae has been given full species status.
>>So it´s just Lampropeltis californiae now. And that nigrita is now considered a subspecies of Lampropeltis californiae.
>>
>>It´s the same with holbrooki, splendida, and nigra. They have all been given full species status.
>>

That's is all screwed up.....
A Splendida and Nigrita are more alike than any of the others........
And a Holbrooki and Nigra are alike.....

What about Meansi (goini) and Floridana....I guess they are all Easterns now.......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah, talk about re-inventing the freakin WHEEL for no real justifiable reason!!..LOL!

At least that is how I see it anyway.

Originally taxonomy was introduced to simplify things and keep a formal "order" of life forms. I only see this as a throwing a huge wrench into the gears to be quite honest..LOL!

I hope things stay just as they are for a long, long time..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Freakin politics must be involved......
Who's Tennessee's Governor???????......LOL

There will be sooooooo many more freakin mutts out there it is ridiculous........MBK X Calking MUTTS!!!!!!!!!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"There will be sooooooo many more freakin mutts out there it is ridiculous........MBK X Calking MUTTS!!!!!!!!!"

Holy CRAP!, that is a VERY scary reality man!

Yeah, I can just see it now.........."what's the big deal man??, they are ALL the same thing anyway!!"...HAHAA!

Like things weren't already bad enough!....uhhhhhh!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Oh, don't get so dramatic. They're all in the same species now, and they'll be in the same species if they get reclassified. What's the big difference?

>>"There will be sooooooo many more freakin mutts out there it is ridiculous........MBK X Calking MUTTS!!!!!!!!!"
>>
>>Holy CRAP!, that is a VERY scary reality man!
>>
>>Yeah, I can just see it now.........."what's the big deal man??, they are ALL the same thing anyway!!"...HAHAA!
-----
----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I just think it will put ideas into some people's heads about their breeding choices about making more "Heinze 57" offspring. If I am wrong, then great!......I would certainly hope I am in this case.

This really has nothing to do with what they are called or classified as, but rather what this might lead some people to think about in regards to their breeding choices and pairings.

Anyway, like I said before, I hope I am wrong.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Don't these so called "scientists/biologists" know that an MBK has a Splendida pattern......

I can see screwed up perfectly banded Calkings now with speckled side walls and zig zagged side walls........So wrong on many levels........

At least they didn't go with the stupid "clade" system.....
I can see it now.....it will be named after the time zones.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah, it's hard to know exactly what some of these guy's are thinking with all this. I don't see the need for any of it myself. But I guess if things were always left as they are, a good portion of the taxonomic world would feel that they aren't moving "forward"..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Yeah, it's hard to know exactly what some of these guy's are thinking with all this. I don't see the need for any of it myself. But I guess if things were always left as they are, a good portion of the taxonomic world would feel that they aren't moving "forward"..LOL!

Well remember, L. californiae was regarded as a full species before it was ever a subspecies....so they're actually going back to the future....
-----
----

1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yeah, my head is already starting to spin over all of this, and it hasn't even been implemented!..LMAO!!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, there was a lot of discussion of this on FHF. None of this has been widely accepted yet, so getula is still the official species to go by. There's a lot of debate of how DNA is being interpreted. Instead of it clearing things up, its made things more confusing. They are saying the Cal kings in central Arizona are splendida. lol Please.
-----

"They are saying the Cal kings in central Arizona are splendida"

Sounds like they are doing a great job of "clearing up" the confusion, don't you think?..HAHAHAA!!

That is like saying that I am a black man from Africa(from like 1.8 million years ago).

That sort of DNA crap is taking things to totally ridiculous level!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

hahaha no doubt, man
-----

Well it's 0 dark 30 in the morning I'm bored and have a paddle so I'm going to stir the pot. LOL

I liked the abstract as it does show the evolution of the getula complex based on bio/geographical/climatic bounderies. I'm not going to argue if these deserve separate species/subspecies status. I'm a locality kind of herp hobbyist now and have no intentions of crossing my Northern Pines with my lineacoltis in the hopes of creating the first striped Northern pine. Nor am I going to get a Eastern chain or Floridana to cross with my Cali, which by the way I've had since before all of this “designer” snake crap, in the hopes of creating some new abberancy that I can charge a gazillion bucks for. Please someone show me a “normal” corn snake.

Looking at dogs with their supposed common ancestry of the wolf and now we have such diverse breeds as the Great Dane and the Chihuahua. At least in developing these breeds meddlesome man was trying to at least fill a niche whether it be some cuddly little thing to sit on your lap or to guard your personal domain and tear the legs or other body parts off of an intruder. There was a time that if the neighbors Black Lab jumped the fence and banged your Poodle you would have considered the offspring a litter of worthless mutts. Nowadays look in the pet classifieds and the Labradoodle is now a “designer” dog that they want $1500.00 for. The only niche it fills is the pocketbook niche.

So we see the same happening in our hobby. Sadly I feel it's even worse than the dog as we have these somewhat distinct species/subspecies with a common ancestry that evolved to survive in these biogeoclimatic niches being crossed in the quest for the almighty dollar with no regard to the decimation of these species/subspecies. Oh! You meddlesome men you. No, it gets even worse in our hobby when we have breeders making these. Thayeri X Cal King X Cornsnake X Pueblan 18.75% Pueblan Milksnake (Lampropeltis Triangulum Campbelli) 25% California Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula californiae) 18.75% Cornsnake (Pantherophis Guttata Guttata) 37.5% Thayer's Kingsnake (Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri). Sheesh talk about a mutt. Ironically these are being breed by a company named after a prehistorical era, the Mesozoic, that specializes in hybrids. LOL Or these,
Lampropeltis t. campbelli X Lampropeltis getula californiae again from a company with prehistoric in their name. Gotta love the irony.

Then there's the whole genetics game of the hypoaxanthicaneryhybinos. God forbid your ball pythons threw a clutch of babies with abberancy in the third dorsal blotch which now has to be distinguished by some off the wall name and be worth $3000.00.

Witness ye furthermore the “Anery Cal Kings” thread below. Where it took nearly half the thread to state that there can be no such thing as an anery cal king since they already have no red in their genetics. Then the thread really starts to fall apart in a debate about genetics and recessive this and co-dominant that then into the hypoaxanthicaneryhybinos crap. Oh! I feel the flames warming up already. LOL To where Kerby, sorry dude no offense intended, and his last post where he states “I don't have any explanations. “ regarding some of his offspring. By the way the picture of that litter of kings to my opinion are some of the ugliest calis I've ever seen.

Thanks but no thanks. I think my normal old B/W calis are still beautiful and although not worth a gazillion bucks I will breed them along with trying to maintain and search for more locality species to focus on.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this if anywhere. Like I said, 0 dark 30, bored and now I've had a full pot of coffee to wire me up and I have a paddle. But who am I just another butthead herp hobbyist with a few snakes who loves that feeling of opening the hatching box and feeling like it's Xmas morning.

Flamesuit on. LOL
-----
Hope this helps.

BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. M. Melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. D. Deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. L. Lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. M. Lodingi Black Pines
1.0 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.0 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings

Wow, what a big long thread!
Anyway, I agree with you on mixing up kings and milks and even worse mixing up kings and gophers and corns together. Not that it probably matters when the snakes produced will never hopefully be placed in the wild, but instead will be spending their lives safely in captivity.

A cute little mix that the breeder was asking over a $1000 for!
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

"Wow, what a big long thread! "

Boredom and a pot of strong coffee will do that to me. LOL

The whole thread was pretty much tongue in cheek. In the overall scheme of things my opinion doesn't matter all that much and I'm free to do what I want and so are others.

Pretty little snake for a mutt. LOL Lot's prettier than a labridoodle. ROFL
-----
Hope this helps.

BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. M. Melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. D. Deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. L. Lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. M. Lodingi Black Pines
1.0 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.0 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings

i think your use of dog breeds is off, as a lab is no different then your cockapoo or what have you. A pure bred dog is a cross not just from wolfs but from other wild dogs.

So yea, all dogs breeds are crosses, so they are a very poor analogy.

Also your base that money drives it all is very odd. I think curiosity drives this and if lucky, money will support it and allow it to continue.

As a old timer like you, I was in on the begining of this. The reason it did not happen in the fifties or earlier is, there was no monitary support. if there was, breeding herps in captivity would have been done a very long time ago.

While some folks have been lucky and actually made some money with this hobby, I know of none that became rich. Yes a decent living, but not rich.

So once these animals are in captivity, why would you expect them to have a different history then any other animal in captivity. This includes fish, birds, mammals, horses, dogs, pigs, etc etc etc, its kinda what man does. Even if money was not envolved.

Thank goodness money is envolved or you would not be able to buy cages, rodents, crickets, and all manner of other husbandry tools. It would still be like the old days, you would have to make all that stuff yourself. and then go out and catch your own wild caught snakes to put in the cages.

now you can get anything you want. How is that bad?

To be totally honest none of what I said was based in scientific data. I even admitted right off the bat I was bored and had a paddle and was just stirring some $h1t. All of what you said is pretty much true. In the last 50 years a lot has happened to make this hobby more accessible to all and that can be a good thing. Not everyone is like me and enjoys making their own enclosures or rasing their own food items. With popularity and accessibility it also raises awareness. Not a bad thing at all.

The only part I really feel bad about is that there are not more folks trying to maintain species/subspecies and localities as true stock. With developement and habitat destruction how long before we can no longer find some of these species. Hopefully someone somewhere will maintain some purity and they won't be a total loss. As I said earlier find me a normal corn. How about a true Okatee corn or Miami phase. How rare is the Lousiana pine?

But this is just another mild rant.

Later
-----
Hope this helps.

BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. M. Melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. D. Deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. L. Lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. M. Lodingi Black Pines
1.0 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.0 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings

"I think curiosity drives this and if lucky, money will support it and allow it to continue."

I agree Frank.
-----
�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

AND?
do you like cheese with your whine? geez, paddle,coffee?HA...
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
shouldnt someone who has put time and effort into a breeding of ANY snake, hybrids or not seek compensation?!?!? what on earth is wrong with that???
do you REALLY think cbb hybrids could do anything to wild populations? really if so please explain...
because i certainly beleive they would not make it adulthood firstoff,and if so really doubt they would be able reproduce with natives but again if they did they would be ABSORBED in the nat.pops, the cross breeding thats been done PROVES how closely related these animals really are and taxonomist are looking pretty STUPID.
embrace them they are the futureor dont choice IS yours.

ive named this one DOUG

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

........yeah, I just produced one too, and named it Thomas. But I flushed it.

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

probably had a bad spell of taco farts right before that! lmao

>>probably had a bad spell iiof taco farts right before that! lmao

Is this what we've been reduced to? Ha, that was funny though.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Naaa!, ....but that little piece of _ _ _ _ I recently named "Thomas" and flushed down does keep coming back again and again though. It's one of those horrible "bad smells" you can never seem to get rid of..LMAO!!

Here are a couple kings to stay on topic and to help forget about that bad smell..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

you name things you flush FRICKEN WOW!!!...
well that does explain alot.
thanks for your input mong as always its as ENLIGHTENING as the things we all flush, i mean with a post like that i think your new screenname shoud be mr.flush, or toiletboy or hows about SENOR~TROLL i mean it fits.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi Thomas, I worry about the damage hybrids can do both in the wild and in captive breeding, so I want to poke at your ideas a little, see if my mind changes.

THOMAS wrote:
>>...do you REALLY think cbb hybrids could do anything to wild populations? really if so please explain...

>>because i certainly beleive they would not make it adulthood firstoff

Why do you think they wouldn't make it to adulthood? Are they flawed in some way because of their brief time in captivity? Do you think people who release a few baby snakes from locally collected parents are releasing them to certain death? Or does your belief have to do with their hybrid nature? Do you think hybrids are inferior in some way health-wise? (the argument that one or the other of the parent species is unsuitable to the location isn't a fair argument, because the same would be true of pure snakes--the argument that a florida water snake wouldn't survive to adulthood if released in the desert, for ex) So first, i need the answers to those two questions OR an explanation of whatever other reason(s) you have for thinking they couldn't survive in the wild.

>>and if so really doubt they would be able reproduce with natives

Can you present your arguments for this point of view? I'm assuming you're referring to animals released into the natural range of one of their parent species (if not, it's again not a pertinent argument--see watersnakes on the butte, above). Are you arguing a california king x eastern milk released in southern kentucky, for example, couldn't reproduce with either the black kings or eastern milks in that range, even though it readily could in captivity? If that's not it, could you explain why you think they wouldn't be able to reproduce with the native species?

I seem to have run out of space. I'll post a second one to ask you about your ideas about how this interplays with taxonomy, etc.

thanks
terry

>> if they did (survive to adulthood & be able to reproduce in the wild) they would be ABSORBED in the nat.pops, the cross breeding thats been done PROVES how closely related these animals really are and taxonomist are looking pretty STUPID.

Why you think they'd be absorbed (assuming that means they'd not alter the phenotype or genotype of the wild populations?

I think hybrids can and will (and have) harmed wild populations because their characteristics won't disappear. Heck, let's not even talk about hybrids, just consider the release of "normal" (to avoid the word "pure" specimens into the wild within their natural range. Populations are unique: in one part of an animal's range the black borders around a snake's red saddles may be wider than in other areas (think red rats), or or there may be striped populations (think cal kings). Release animals that are precisely the same subspecies into that different part of their natural range, and you've affected the phenotype. Surely the same is true for other genotypical characteristics. Now imagine putting a different subspecies than the one found in that range: the affect is magnified. Finally, imagine releasing some hybrids: the difference is even greater.

I don't think captive breeding has made taxonomists look stupid: I'd argue that releasing captive bred specimens (not even necessarily hybrids) makes taxonomists' work futile. If you've ever wrestled with king or milk meristics, imagine what it would be like if the researchers who determined the range for the various scale counts had had to establish those parameters after a number of animals of the same species (again, not even hybrids) had been introduced into the populations. What about the scientists of the future?

I worry that there are fewer and fewer locales where herpetologists can be confident the specimens they collect and analyze have not been tainted by reintroduction of animals bred--or simply collected--elsewhere.

This is F-1 from wild caught parents.

-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Look I tend to ride the fence on this issue. I am learning to appreciate the locality animals more and more as I go. However I can look at a good looking snake and say wow that is nice! I don't think these hybrids will do a huge amount of harm to the purebreeds. In fact if anything, it will make them all the more valuable. If every kid had pure Thayeri and was breeding them they would be 15 bucks. There will always be people who strive to keep their lines pure and I applaud them and admire them. I am trying to clean up my collection a bit also. But if some one wants to pay 1,000 dollars for a mutt God bless them. I don't think they have a long waiting list, and they are in for a surprise when they breed those things. There's not gonna be a mob knocking down their door.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra