Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this big girl out at Monster Island. Not sure what could have caused it, the island is devoid of Raccoons, possums, fox, skunk and all mammalian predators, not even cats. I suppose it could have been a hawk....but not too many milks that get this size would be so foolish as to be caught in the open. Guesses?

Looks like a fresh wound. I take it the snake is dead. If so, why would it not have been eaten?

--dennis

I don’t know anything about the island(population, commercialization) so don’t think this is a joke. I’ve accidently hit snakes cutting grass before with a lawn mower and if they are not completely cut up the wound can look similar to that. Is it still alive? To me it looks like it is gripping the side of the Rubbermaid container while you take the picture.

>>I don’t know anything about the island(population, commercialization) so don’t think this is a joke. I’ve accidently hit snakes cutting grass before with a lawn mower and if they are not completely cut up the wound can look similar to that.

That was my thought exactly. Maybe when they were mowing the landfill the snake got clipped by the mower?
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Joe

There is no landfill on the island. Its a modern type, well kept, and refuse is taken off island.

>>There is no landfill on the island. Its a modern type, well kept, and refuse is taken off island.

When did the landfill disappear? I believe its been there since the 1940's and it is probably mowed at least twice a year.
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Joe

Landfills dont disappear but with land costs the way they are they built a filling station on top of it. Its as clean as any in the state, the AVERAGE 1 acre lot on the island now sells for more than $1.1 Million, a friend of mine recently donated 12 acres to the land trust for a cool $12M! The island as most knew it is gone.

>>There is no landfill on the island. Its a modern type, well kept, and refuse is taken off island.

>>Landfills dont disappear but with land costs the way they are they built a filling station on top of it. Its as clean as any in the state, the AVERAGE 1 acre lot on the island now sells for more than $1.1 Million, a friend of mine recently donated 12 acres to the land trust for a cool $12M! The island as most knew it is gone.

OK, so now we have established that there IS a landfill (not that that really matters, just making a point) and the real estate is very expensive on the island. Is this expensive real estate the reason that some may "confuse" eastern milks from the island with mainland eastern milks? Could you please explain the difference for us mainlanders so that we stop confusing eastern milks with eastern milks? Thanks.
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Joe

Joe, if you see them side by side to me its obvious. Now if you havent much experience with them I can understand why you cant see it. I'm sure there are some OBX kings that some people will stomp up and down and insist they are Easterns, Ce La Vi. I have pointed to the SIZE of them, and have yet to see 1 milk anywhere in the country within 6 inches of these. There bands are different too, bigger, no tipping or off-colored orangish scales, no small random spots, and very very clean. And the other thing that reminds me of OBX is their body, they just seem bigger, wider. Now I hold no qualm with color or variability, but I'm talking about a large sample size. I can send you pics from Monsters from 5-7 years ago up to now, but alot of lost pics from 10-20 years ago only emphasize my points. Here is one from a few years ago, a female from my first cb clutch. I lost her after she TRIPLE clutched....I couldnt stop her from laying eggs! After the 3rd clutch she refused food and passed but look at her banding. Tell me she doesnt look different. For size, thats a 20 gallon long tamk she is on and its 13" wide, I'd say she could easily be 4' right??

Here is another great example of a very very clean Monster. Can you see what they have in common?

Here is a typical mainland milk from northern Mass.. Can you see the difference?

... likes the TRUTH.

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to try to explain yourself. We are not talking about OBX and eastern kings here, we are talking about eastern milks and eastern milks. Sure some of the eastern milks from your mysterious island do look a little different from many other eastern milks from other parts of the country, and some look very similar. Some of the blotches on individuals I have seen you post appear bigger, and some blotches appear smaller than average blotches. They all fit well within the current description of the eastern milk snake.

Could the larger than average size of adults from the island have anything to do with the fact that there are very few predators on the island, and also very few things competing for the same food sources as the easterns on the island? Along with no natural mammalian predators, I believe there are no reptilian predators as well. Not even racers, correct?

We have seen some photos of some other very large easterns from Cape Cod, PA, NJ, OH to name a few. I have read in many publications that the average adult eastern is 24-36" with individuals up to 60". Just because you or I have not personally seen them does not mean they do not exist. We have all seen photos and individuals of many "dirty" and quite a few "clean" adults as well. I appreciate them all, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Does this mean that all of these others should be considered "different" too? I don't believe so as they also all fall within the description of a very variable subspecies of milksnake.

Now I know for some reason you want to believe that the island easterns are something more than eastern milk snakes, C'est la vie. Unfortunately, It is what it is.

Good job with the photos of those attractive easterns from your collection! Any luck in 2010 proving out any of the possible morphs from the island?

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Joe

Excellent post and well worded, Joe. I agree, too - While I admire Jeff's tenacity and dedication to the animals, as well as their variability and attractiveness, they aren't out of the range of phenotypic variation for nominate triangulum. I'll also step out in traffic here and say that from photos I've seen (that I believe you took?), it appears that Jeff has, indeed, found anerythristic milks on "the" island.

I'll echo your question too, Joe: Jeff, any luck with unique hatchlings from that locality this season?

-Cole

Cole, not sure agreeing with Joe's post there based on a few pics makes much sense. You mention normal variation, so lets compare apples to apples. The nearest thing to compare these to are OBX kings(due to isolation). Would a OBX king fit the description of a Eastern king? You will get arguements on both sides. All that is different is pattern right? There is no size difference right? I will assume you havent had OBX kings, to make it a fair comparison. Lets put it on the other foot too..
Lets say I just founded OBX kings, and I was the only one to find them and I posted pics of them online. Now DNA results may say they are the same as Easterns, but DNA results also say there is no difference between black, yellow and the rest of them ratsnakes! What is the over riding factor?? We know it isnt looks, right?!?! If it is about looks we would be here for decades discussing Coastal Plains....come to think of it, we are! One could say they are the most genetically mixed milks right? Well wouldnt these milks have to be the most genetically "pure"??
What I am saying is what I have always said, it brings up alot of interesting questions and no one looking at a computer screen has a single answer! I'm not trying to win a popularity contest but I dont see a single person mentioning glaciation, a timeline, or what formed the islands or when. Shoot, you do realize that Todos Santos Island MT Kings are less isolated genetically than these right? Is that snake a different ssp. simply because it LOOKS different?? NOPE! Is it easier to show people differences in pics? YUP! So there you go, if you want an intelligent arguement you cant have both sides! Right?

First of all I'd like put my two bits in for adult mouse bites on the wounds. Adult mice will bite in defense of their den and brood, even stay and chew if need be. Just look at Rubber boa tails and the chewing they take while eating up a clutch of pinkies or fuzzy mice. Cole and I have seen these type of bites and wounds before in multistrata and gentilis. So what ever it's worth, that's what I think it's from.
Could be an airplane propeller, I liked that one.

Jeff wrote:
Tell me she doesn't look different.

Aaa sorry Jeff, she doesn't look different.

Still an Eastern milk, if want to say they are a race of bigger then average triangulum then fine, but I still haven't seen a photo from you that has convinced me they are that much bigger then average L. t. triangulum.
You do have an interesting shade of green going on w/ the monster line your working w/ though.

Very nice sample photos Joe of what you've found from your area. The first and third photos are excellent examples of bright and clean t. triangulum.

Keep up the good fight guys.....peace.

-Dell

... likes the TRUTH.

Joe, I take serious offense to that! Insinuating that I am not telling the truth, or calling me a liar, on a public forum is worth a PM dont you think? I mean I am the guy who came to your house and taught you how to set up AC to find more. I've never said a bad word about you, met your wife and daughters, and have encouraged you at every stage of your husbandry development.

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to try to explain yourself. We are not talking about OBX and eastern kings here, we are talking about eastern milks and eastern milks. Sure some of the eastern milks from your mysterious island do look a little different from many other eastern milks from other parts of the country, and some look very similar. Some of the blotches on individuals I have seen you post appear bigger, and some blotches appear smaller than average blotches. They all fit well within the current description of the eastern milk snake.

Joe, what ARE OBX kings? Do they "fit well within the current description" of Eastern Kings?? They are a seperated race that is now more connected to other populations so their blood is getting MORE mixed. Genes and isolation is working in exactly the opposite direction with Monsters and if they survive the sprawl they will certainly be something "new", they are easily the most isolated population of milks anywhere in the country. Some Monster Island milks may LOOK similar to the naked eye, but I have been working with this difficult race for 20 years so I do know more about them than anyone, even you! The difference between Monsters and OBX is that 100 people have found OBX.....

Could the larger than average size of adults from the island have anything to do with the fact that there are very few predators on the island, and also very few things competing for the same food sources as the easterns on the island? Along with no natural mammalian predators, I believe there are no reptilian predators as well. Not even racers, correct?

Joe yes, yes and yes. And that is how a race becomes different, becomes a new ssp.. If there are still no mammalian predators around that would mean those crafty buggers couldnt find a way to repopulate the island, what chance do you think a milk snake has at making the crossing?? Slim and none, and slim just left town!

We have seen some photos of some other very large easterns from Cape Cod, PA, NJ, OH to name a few. I have read in many publications that the average adult eastern is 24-36" with individuals up to 60". Just because you or I have not personally seen them does not mean they do not exist. We have all seen photos and individuals of many "dirty" and quite a few "clean" adults as well. I appreciate them all, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Joe, again I will have to insist on anyone producing pics of any NA milk that even approaches 4'. Never mind multiple specimens. And just because you read it in a book or online doesnt make it true, the RECORD milk in the country is held at the MCZ at Harvard, guess where the locale is?? That is the one they cited in the Petersons field guide. Williams' search through preserved specimens throughout the country never found a bigger one. Does one exist? Has one existed in the past, probably, but the fact that I have pics of bigger ones than anyone else says something too even if you dont like it.

Does this mean that all of these others should be considered "different" too? I don't believe so as they also all fall within the description of a very variable subspecies of milksnake.

Joe, genetic drift occurs a heck of a lot easier on the mainland to homogenize the population. Orders of magnitude more easily. "All these others" are usually individual snakes right, not a whole locale population.

Now I know for some reason you want to believe that the island easterns are something more than eastern milk snakes, C'est la vie. Unfortunately, It is what it is.

Joe, its very easy to argue why this population of milks can be the most interesting in the country. Name another that comes close and why.....Size, genetics, the fact that they are locale and literally "super pure"(for those into that)its hard to understand why YOU would pose the arguement. You know me, my sarcasm and attitude, but you havent spent more than 5 minutes with these snakes.

Good job with the photos of those attractive easterns from your collection! Any luck in 2010 proving out any of the possible morphs from the island?

Joe, my problems with establishing this line(and of course pics) may be a joke or a punchline but I dont see anyone else having more luck. I have always been as open as I dare and honest when representing them. In 20 years life hands us some curveballs, not everyone ends up with the 2.5 kids the nice wife and the white picket fence. My priorities have varied but I keep coming back to work with them primarily because they are hard, they are difficult. I (and others)consider what I am doing a benefit to herptoculture and science, alot more than producing the hybrid morph "Honduran". But alot of people here take the easy way, I dont. My nice anery female died last season after laying. This summer was brutal on my collection of milks, and I will no longer keep milks in my current acrylic units because of humidity problems. In the past I have supplemented my lines with a couple new recruits, but the weather was unbearable on the island this summer and they simply hate hot weather. Carl's anery is stuck and hasnt grown significantly in 2 years so he has lost some of his zest too. The few people around the country who have them have had similar results so I can comfortably say "its not me".
Look, I am not lucky, I didnt find these by chance. I didnt find a ALBINO in my front yard! I found these one by one and have spent decades trying to establish this line virtually alone. Finding problems even with CB lines(temp, humidity)will be important going forward but some things I have no control over. I will remember this post if your Albino starts shooting blanks next year, but I am man enough to wish you well with your project and sincerely hope you do well. My best to the fam as always, Jeff

WOW!,.....

Who knows really?, but I would say that the snake just managed to miss certain death by whatever caused those wounds.

I would pretty much guess as the other's did, and it could very possibly be a lawn mower accident that the snake got involved with that did that. Maybe the big commercial tractor-type kind possibly(shrug).

Yeah, looks like a good job for ..........."Neosporin" to the rescue!

Hope it heals up okay.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, she is a big 4' female and I'm treating her but she is otherwise happy and healthy! Figured she wouldnt make it through winter like that so keep her warm as long as I can to get it to heal. The lawnmower is possible but still unlikely.

well.......4 foot....tadaaaa.....nuff said....

I noticed the marks are both same side and same general shape...I thought ....talons?...or vampire fangs?....not sure which way I sway mostly.....

lawnmower....I think it would look worse...BUT!!!...my cousin ran over his kid...yes...right over his kid on a riding mower...and all he ripped apart was the jeans....his kid wanted to know why he was run over??? and his father couldn't sleep for three days because it was so freakin scary to have actually run over your kid...then actually pick up a mower and flip it far away.....soooo...maybe the marks could be mower....

seems someone knows where the island is and how they mow the lawn there.....

no cats???....I thought they were everywhere....??.....the marks are about cat fang width???....

.....anyways...good luck with it....!......
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........JY

>>no cats???....I thought they were everywhere....??.....the marks are about cat fang width???....

That isn't a cat bite. It looks like something slashed it -- while cat bites leave punctures. Been there done that. And it would be bad if it WERE a cat bite -- they have NASTY mouth bacteria....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

On second thought --

nights and mornings are getting cool now. If there are any cars parked out on this island over night, how about a fanbelt injury?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yeah, almost anything could be possible. Even a car tire that just grazed the side of the snake could pinch all the hide off like that too. It does look more like it was torn off to me than anything else. Fan belt or tire, lawn mower, or whatever, that snake probably just missed getting squashed or cut into pieces by the "skin of it's teeth"..LOL!

I agree, I've seen several snake's in my day with cat bites, and they make numerous small punctures all over the animal, and leaves their scales all roughed-up looking and looks nothing at all like that injury does.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff,

We'll never know but I've seen hawks cut apart prey like they were med students. Were there any puncture marks (talons)?
This is my newly trapped immature red tail (Falconry bird).

Steve

No punctures but as fresh as it looks the skin around the wound it noticably scabbed so I think this is not a recent wound. Punctures could have healed....and this is a BIG snake.

you could put up a picture of this 4'er... full body shot next to a ruler/yardstick/extended tape measure... anything to sort of accurately judge by? Thanks.

Gerry

Well since there are no mammalian predators and lawnmowers on the island, It must be from the monster island MONSTER!

Just curious if the water, garter, ringneck, ribbon, and green sankes are also considered Monster subspecies, lol.
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Joe

"Just curious if the water, garter, ringneck, ribbon, and green sankes are also considered Monster subspecies"

Man, every type of snake on that crazy island was like taking a trip through "Jurassic Park" when a buddy of mine went there!!

A good friend of mine just got back from herping "Monster Island". This is a recent pic of him standing next to a big 29 foot ringneck he just discovered there!. I am betting Bob Clark would even be interested in a pair of these guys..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

WOW Doug!

Now those are not to be confused with mainland ringnecks.
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Joe

LOL!!,..that's for sure Joe!

Yeah, that is definitely an extremely isolated location where it seems that time has literally "stood still" for millions of years!

Jeff also said he could hear spooky deep roars off in the distance that would make your blood curdle!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Some of your best work!

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hot rock?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Airplane propeller?!

Seriously, though, I'd guess that it's from a rodent. I've seen a number of wild milks with similar wounds. Actually, I think Dell may have even posted one we found this Spring. I would suspect that such wounds are more common in animals of the size class large enough to eat weaned rodents.

-Cole

Due to its size I suppose it could have encountered a adult rat....but my guess is that the wound would have been alot more random and nasty if it was being squeezed. I will try and get a better proportional pic later, no promises,lol. My bet on a raptor is still most likely I think. I do suppose with metal around the wind could have blown something over or maybe a deer or person was atop the metal while it was underneath....who knows, but nice to see such a healthy animal.

You say its an island, how about fish with teeth? Pike or if its salt, bluefish?

Mike