Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i would like to build an out building to house my herps. i live in upstate new york south of buffalo. it gets pretty cold here and was just looking to see what ideas people here have done or would do. my current indoor herp room is only 7 1/2 x 11 1/2 inside floor space. in my town i dont need a permit if the sq footage is 100ft or less. so i was thinking of building a shed 8x12. this way i could move my snakes outside and use the much needed room inside for more important things. like another bedroom!

i was thinking i would do 2x6 construction and use r19 insulation plus use the foam board on the exterior under the siding. im not sure if i would do a house wrap or not because i do want air exchange. i do not feel their would be to many drafts since its a new construction. a good exterior door and 2 or 3 windows. 2 for daylight and another to house a small ac unit in the summer if needed.

im just not sure if its a good idea or not.
1.will the ac cause problems with the snakes?
2.will this construction suffice for the cold(will use small heater in there as well prob. oil filled)
3. any other ideas you may have will be greatly appreciated
thanks in advance
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Possible, Yes! Safe, Yes! Cheap, probably not!

I will start by saying size is hugely important. When you take into consideration wall thickness sheet material, door swing windows, electrical boxes, water, etc. Things start to get cramped.

My Herp room for example is 9'x17' (interior dimensions) while I have few issues with he long side of the room I can't stand in front of my rack to service the tub. There isn't enough room between the two apposing rows of cages.

My Rat shed is exactly what you describe building although not as dramatic. It's 6' and there is no space I have enough room to house one row of racks and barely enough room to service them.

I suggest getting some sheets and try the dimensions first before actual construction begins.

I would also look into code requirement of non-permanent structures. My rat shed is on skids and sits on pads to keep it level and above ground, its connected to electricity via a flexible conduit, and there is no plumbing. This type of structure doesn't require a permit as its not intended to stay on the property forever.

2x6 constructions is great, however I would call around to insulation contractors and see who can spray expanding foam insulation. This is far easier than cutting and stapling vapor barrier and fiberglass batts. It also fills the small voids that occur in small building construction.

House wrap is a must if using steel or vinyl siding, as all of those products are simple cosmetic. They are in no way a water barrier or wind barrier. They do let the home breath however.

If you think new homes are exempt from drafts you are mistaken. Other than those done as above with triple expanding foam, most new homes are prone to worse drafts than homes built a century ago. Cutting corners, doesn't improve anything.

I think it can be a wise idea if done correctly. There are tons of ways to adequately heat/cool small spaces. And keep in mind the more things hanging on the walls or siting on the floor consume a small spaces usability fairly quickly.

Cheers
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

0.0.2 Morelia Viridis
1.0 Morelia Clastolepis

"I think it can be a wise idea if done correctly. There are tons of ways to adequately heat/cool small spaces. And keep in mind the more things hanging on the walls or siting on the floor consume a small spaces usability fairly quickly. "

tell me about it!!! like i said my current room is 11x7 and is good enough except all the crap my wife keeps sticking in there. vacuum, full size upright freezer, i also store my old fish tanks in there(going bye bye) as well as all my shipping supplies and extra equipment. so the space as long as its dedicated to the herps is fine. their will be storage in the rafters for shipping supplies,tanks are going bye bye and only my racks will go in there. setting my 3 larger racks together they measure roughly 8ft.
i am going to look into going bigger because i would love the extra room. just depends on what code says and how much additional cost there will be. id love to be able to get my rats out of the house as well. i only have one 5 level rat rack and then 3 lab cages and 1 10 gallon tank. i will build another rat rack and get rid of the other crap though. maybe 2 more just to up production.
thanks for the help
adam jeffery
i wasnt aware that house wrap was breathable, ill use it then.
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

With internal dimensions of 11x7 you won't have much in the way of rafters, particularly with 2x6 construction.

My rat shed uses 2x6 for the ceiling and from top plate to ridge sole there is only 12". I built a vaulted ceiling, the peak is filled with the water tank.

Wife's been bugging me for her own space I brought up the idea of a portable building to house the collection...we'll see if and when she lets me build it, LOL

You ever think of finding a old RV?
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

0.0.2 Morelia Viridis
1.0 Morelia Clastolepis

an old rv is actually a really good idea. if i can fit it in between the houses to get it outback it would work perfectly.
not sure if im allowed (by code) to run electric to a something like that r if i would have to build a panel rated for outdoor use (like with mobile homes) or just run it and dont tell them...lol
now you have me thinking. great
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

All RV's have some sort of plug, to allow shore power. In some cases this is used only to run the converter necessary to charge the batteries. In other case like mine, its required to run the TV, AC, and microwave.

Depending on the type/year you may have anywhere from 15 amp to 50 amp service. To my knowledge there are no RV's as of yet that require greater than 50 amps. Partly do to extension cord concerns at that rating.

Regardless you can always up-size your service to meet the needs of the collection. The internal components are identical to those used in home construction, they can simple be swapped out. As for power cord and plugs, RV part dealers stock many of those and have quite a catalog to order from.

Your biggest hurdle will be making the unit winter ready. If you completely gut the inside it won't be so bad. Many rv's only have 2" thick walls, zero insulation in the floor, and maybe 2" in the ceiling. Older models use single pane windows and most don't have ducted HVAC units.

If you really need the portability of the reptile room, I would consider it. However I think you'll find a shed will be cheaper easier to build and more efficient than converting an rv. But different areas of the country have different opportunities.

I myself am only going to be in my current home for another year or so. So it makes sense if I make something to move down the road. A portable shed or a rv allow the reptiles to move and be immediately setup at the new home.

Best of Luck
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

0.0.2 Morelia Viridis
1.0 Morelia Clastolepis

Jeremy,
I don't want to get far off topic but I'd like to know what you're using for a water tank for rodents. I've put off going that route long enough, I've had enough of filing 2-liter water bottles for 25 tubs.

Thanks!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

>>Jeremy,
>>I don't want to get far off topic but I'd like to know what you're using for a water tank for rodents. I've put off going that route long enough, I've had enough of filing 2-liter water bottles for 25 tubs.
>>

9' section of 8" pvc capped on both ends, milled and plumbed with vent/overflow hose bib and a connection tot eh rat racks, with valves to work the system.

Holds roughly 40 gallons of water. I was going to use a bigger piece of pipe, but at 50 gallons thats 400 lbs of water hanging from my roof.
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

0.0.2 Morelia Viridis
1.0 Morelia Clastolepis

n/p
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

What species, and how many, will be kept in the new outbuilding? My first concern with your project is the electrical. How many amps you'll need in the building, whether or not you have the extra amps available in your breaker panel and the extra space for needed breaker(s).

You can calculate the needed amps by adding up the wattage of the heat source for each cage, planned lighting, heater, A/C, etc... Here's the formula to convert wattage to amps: amps = watts divided by volts. An example is that a typical 60 watt light bulb on the standard 110 U.S. voltage operates at 0.54 amps (60/110 = amps).

You also have to consider the length of the electrical run from your house's service panel to the outbuilding. This dictates the the size cable needed to carry the amps and allow for an acceptable level of voltage drop.

You would most likely be OK with aprox. 30 - 40 amp service. One thing for sure, too much is better than not enough. Nothing like waking up one morning and finding out that your breaker tripped during the night, leaving the building/cages without any heat for hours.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I live in Rochester, so our winters are roughly the same. You will need a plan for when the power goes out in the winter, because such a small building will not stay warm for long in our winters, and you can't assume that you'll be home when the power goes out. This is actually something that you really need to think about with the animals in your house as well, but I think it is compounded by being in a small outbuilding.

Next, think about what happens in the entrance room of your house in the winter every time you open the door to enter or exit. The warm air rushes out and the cold air rushes in, and because of that you are always going to be dealing with draft problems in the winter. I also would bet you will have a little difficulty getting the temps dialed in in the summer as well. Remember, our climate is one of extremes.

This one is more of a personal one, but something I have thought about quite a bit. Do you think that the snakes will really benefit from being further away from you and your care? I keep my animals primarily for my own enjoyment (breeding is secondary), so I like having them around the house because I can enjoy observing them and be able to provide care whenever I am home. Just something to think about, because I would bet the animals will see you less when you put them in an outbuilding (especially in the winter).

good luck

yeah our weather is identical really. your only a few hours from me. i can completely understand what your saying as well. me wanting t move them out of the house is more a soon to be need than a want. once my daughter hits a certain age she is going to need her own room, and the snake room is it! i didnt think about the opening of the door dropping temps in such a small space. id have to make a small mud room to prevent to much of a draft. i also didnt consider the need for a generator. its really a good thing i asked its giving me a lot to consider and plan for.
i have about 2 years before its a necessity. it will be a necessity to get the rats outside this spring though. its too bad solar panels arent cheaper yet they would be perfect for what i need.
lots to consider! im actually thinking of building a 12x24 or evn a 12x30 i just need to contact code and see what regulations my city has on outbuildings first.
thanks again
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

id have to make a small mud room to prevent to much of a draft.

Rather than framing out a mudroom and wasting that space you could just make a small entry area by draping some Reflectix around the door or even that overlapping plastic like you see in warehouses, etc. You just need a small area to stand in while you close the door behind you. During warmer months you could just take the drape down altogether. If you left it up it wouldn't take up much space.

Even if you heated the space with forced air heat of some sort, snake rooms tend to have a lot of thermal mass in them with all the cages, etc. so heat loss is really not that much of an issue. If you end up using some sort of radiant heater it's even less of an issue.

I'm going to try to post some more general thoughts on shed-type herp houses in Bighurt's DIY SIPs thread. I plan to still get to that today.

.....
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.