Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Are these two lines compatible? If you breed a Nerd line Caramel to Bell line Caramel will you get Caramels that are a mix of the two lines, or normals double het for both?

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Slytherin Serpents

Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 Normals het Caramel (Edward & Bella)
0.1 Normal 66% ph Caramel (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel (Bellatrix)
1.0 Honey Bee (Aragog)
0.1 Hypo Pastel (Nagini)
0.1 Spider 66% ph Hypo(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojaves (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.1 Normal (Madame Olympe Maxime)
0.1 Het Pied
0.3 Normal Babies 66% ph Caramel (Edward x Bella)
1.1 Pastel "Dinker" Babies (Snape & Madame Hooch)

Corns
1.1 Normals het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Diffused, Hypo (Romeo & Juliet)
0.1 Blizzard het Diffused (Tumnus)
1.1 Blizzards poss het Anery, Hypo, Diffused
0.1 Anery Lavender het Amel (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma poss het Hypo (Victoria)
1.0 Plasma poss het Albino
1.0 Hypo Plasma
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.1 Amel Motley
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery, Albino, Charcoal, Hypo
0.1 Lavender Motley poss het diffused
1.0 Charcoal Ghost poss het Anery, Albino, Diffused
0.1 Charcoal poss het Albino, Anery, Diffused, Hypo
0.1 Fire poss het Anery, Charcoal, Hypo (LeeLoo)
0.1 Normal het Albino, Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.0 Albino het Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused

Hog
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

You will get a Caramel crosses.
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Bill Buchman

Is it true the Bell line caramels don't kink? Or do both lines have equal chance of producing kinked babies?

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Slytherin Serpents

Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 Normals het Caramel (Edward & Bella)
0.1 Normal 66% ph Caramel (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel (Bellatrix)
1.0 Honey Bee (Aragog)
0.1 Hypo Pastel (Nagini)
0.1 Spider 66% ph Hypo(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojaves (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.1 Normal (Madame Olympe Maxime)
0.1 Het Pied
0.3 Normal Babies 66% ph Caramel (Edward x Bella)
1.1 Pastel "Dinker" Babies (Snape & Madame Hooch)

Corns
1.1 Normals het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Diffused, Hypo (Romeo & Juliet)
0.1 Blizzard het Diffused (Tumnus)
1.1 Blizzards poss het Anery, Hypo, Diffused
0.1 Anery Lavender het Amel (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma poss het Hypo (Victoria)
1.0 Plasma poss het Albino
1.0 Hypo Plasma
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.1 Amel Motley
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery, Albino, Charcoal, Hypo
0.1 Lavender Motley poss het diffused
1.0 Charcoal Ghost poss het Anery, Albino, Diffused
0.1 Charcoal poss het Albino, Anery, Diffused, Hypo
0.1 Fire poss het Anery, Charcoal, Hypo (LeeLoo)
0.1 Normal het Albino, Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.0 Albino het Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused

Hog
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

I've heard that all lines have the potential for kinking, not that I'm an expert by any means.

np

I was trying to decide between two different Caramel males. One is a Bell line and is twice the price as the other one which I'm not sure what line it is. If the Bell line was kink free it would have been worth spending the extra to get that one. But if both lines kink I might as well get the more reasonably priced one.

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Slytherin Serpents

Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 Normals het Caramel (Edward & Bella)
0.1 Normal 66% ph Caramel (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel (Bellatrix)
1.0 Honey Bee (Aragog)
0.1 Hypo Pastel (Nagini)
0.1 Spider 66% ph Hypo(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojaves (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.1 Normal (Madame Olympe Maxime)
0.1 Het Pied
0.3 Normal Babies 66% ph Caramel (Edward x Bella)
1.1 Pastel "Dinker" Babies (Snape & Madame Hooch)

Corns
1.1 Normals het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Diffused, Hypo (Romeo & Juliet)
0.1 Blizzard het Diffused (Tumnus)
1.1 Blizzards poss het Anery, Hypo, Diffused
0.1 Anery Lavender het Amel (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma poss het Hypo (Victoria)
1.0 Plasma poss het Albino
1.0 Hypo Plasma
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.1 Amel Motley
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery, Albino, Charcoal, Hypo
0.1 Lavender Motley poss het diffused
1.0 Charcoal Ghost poss het Anery, Albino, Diffused
0.1 Charcoal poss het Albino, Anery, Diffused, Hypo
0.1 Fire poss het Anery, Charcoal, Hypo (LeeLoo)
0.1 Normal het Albino, Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.0 Albino het Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused

Hog
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

You are asking good questions but you missed one. Which lines kink the worst? Personaly, I would avoid bell line caramels. I mean the bells go so far as to put kinked animals on their tables. RDR has too many videos of kinked caramels for me.Snakekeeper seem to be somewhat better. Nerd goes even another step in the right direction. Then malsin/upscale is by far the best.
Second thing you might consider. How inbred is your snake from the breeder? I know a breeder that bred Brother and Sister dbl hets for caramel glow together then bred the son(a caramel glow) back to mom. Guess what? 2 train wreck glows and one good one. Now what kind of babies will be produced from that inbred glow male(bell line too)??? I'm guessing not good.
You can breed any of these 4 lines (nerd,bell,upscale,sk)ogether and be compatible. Oddly, if you breed upscale to nerd the babies look upscale.

Good luck

Wow. Until this weekend I thought all Caramels were descended from the one Paradox Caramel import and didn't even realize there were different lines. Then I found out there were actually 2 lines which is what prompted my initial post. Now I find out there are 4? Seems I have some catching up to do to get up to speed on Caramels before buying another one. My Caramel female is Nerd line, and my het pair are also Nerd line. I'm trying to work towards Caramel Glows which is why I was looking into getting a Caramel unrelated to the one I have. Thank you very much for the information.

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Slytherin Serpents

Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 Normals het Caramel (Edward & Bella)
0.1 Normal 66% ph Caramel (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel (Bellatrix)
1.0 Honey Bee (Aragog)
0.1 Hypo Pastel (Nagini)
0.1 Spider 66% ph Hypo(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojaves (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.1 Normal (Madame Olympe Maxime)
0.1 Het Pied
0.3 Normal Babies 66% ph Caramel (Edward x Bella)
1.1 Pastel "Dinker" Babies (Snape & Madame Hooch)

Corns
1.1 Normals het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Diffused, Hypo (Romeo & Juliet)
0.1 Blizzard het Diffused (Tumnus)
1.1 Blizzards poss het Anery, Hypo, Diffused
0.1 Anery Lavender het Amel (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma poss het Hypo (Victoria)
1.0 Plasma poss het Albino
1.0 Hypo Plasma
0.1 Opal (Jewel)
0.1 Amel Motley
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery
0.1 Diffused poss het Anery, Albino, Charcoal, Hypo
0.1 Lavender Motley poss het diffused
1.0 Charcoal Ghost poss het Anery, Albino, Diffused
0.1 Charcoal poss het Albino, Anery, Diffused, Hypo
0.1 Fire poss het Anery, Charcoal, Hypo (LeeLoo)
0.1 Normal het Albino, Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.0 Albino het Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused

Hog
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

You hit it right on the head with this. Whats sad is this kind of inbreeding is in all morphs, mostly the recessive traits but still even in the codom/dom morphs too. Most people don't want to wait 12 years or more, or spend the extra money for multiple unrelated snakes, to make a double recessive ball. So they just take the easy rout and inbreed like crazy. Then the babies that survive (or that aren't too messed up) get sold or given to some one else, who in turn repeats the process. Some breeders even go so far as to suggest to others to inbreed. It is a common practice in the business unfortunately. If only every one was responsible enough to stop this practice. Before too long we will all be producing train wrecked animals if things don't change.

You bring up a great point. I have notice the same thing as far as inbreeding goes. I was also given the advice to inbreed when setting up my pied project (didn't have much to invest - this was prob 5 yrs ago when het pieds were pricier - so some suggested getting a het male, keeping his daughters and breeding them back to him). I ended up getting 2 het males so I could use one male to prove out the other's daughters.

I just started trying to put together some Caramel projects this year (mainly aiming for Glows, but I have a few other combos I'd like to make as well). I purchased a male Caramel from one breeder (produced by Greg Graziani), an unrelated pair of adult hets (unrelated to each other and my male), 2 2010 female hets that are also poss het hypo from Michael Cole, and 2 2010 female hets from Heather Wong. I'm also probably going to hold back a male Caramel from the adult hets, assuming I produce one, because he'll be unrelated to the male I have now, and the 4 young female hets. I really tried to put together a diverse group, but that does mean that the Caramel project is taking a big investment (I don't mind, as it's my favorite). Ultimately I'll be able to make unrelated 100% DH Caramel Glows, so I can do the project without inbreeding. That was really important to me, since the Glow is my "dream project". I've been waiting to start it till I felt like I had the resources to do it right.

One thing you have to consider, snakes are non-migratory animals. Most spend their entire lives within a certain area and some even in the same hole all until they die. Inbreeding occurs more than people realize in the wild. Defects you are seeing in these morphs are most likely from the morphs themselves, not from inbreeding. I'm not a locality buff by any means, but to offer some insight, ask anyone that breeds graybands about genetic diversity.lol. Just something to think about.

>>You hit it right on the head with this. Whats sad is this kind of inbreeding is in all morphs, mostly the recessive traits but still even in the codom/dom morphs too. Most people don't want to wait 12 years or more, or spend the extra money for multiple unrelated snakes, to make a double recessive ball. So they just take the easy rout and inbreed like crazy. Then the babies that survive (or that aren't too messed up) get sold or given to some one else, who in turn repeats the process. Some breeders even go so far as to suggest to others to inbreed. It is a common practice in the business unfortunately. If only every one was responsible enough to stop this practice. Before too long we will all be producing train wrecked animals if things don't change.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I also think it sure sounds like the kinking in caramels is not related to inbreeding but is just another tendency of the mutation. RDR reported that about half the original imported caramels where kinked. The interesting part is that some breeders report long runs of no kinks so maybe they have stumbled on something that keeps the tendency from being expressed as often as normal for the caramel mutation.