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Picked this up this weekend at the Repticon show in Orlando. Breeder claims it is from a straight up Mex-Mex breeding. Only one in the clutch that came out this way. Parents are supposed to be typical looking Mex-Mex and this is the first that turned out like this in 4 years of breeding.
IMG]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o79/boaman88/Expo%202010/P1030322.jpg[/IMG]
IMG]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o79/boaman88/Expo%202010/P1030323.jpg[/IMG]
My own guess is not straight up thayeri it at least has some in in it.
Yeah, I have to agree. That hatchling looks to have definite substantial thayeri influence, if not maybe all thayeri(Nuevo Leon).
Now most of the offspring the guy produced might very well consistently look more mex-mex(San Luis Potosi), but when subspecies are crossed, many times later down the line certain individuals will express more of one or the other parent phenotype involved. I STRONGLY suspect that is what that is a product of. A thayeri x mexicana cross somewhere previously. Do you know what the parents both looked like?.
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Typical mex-mex. He said that this was the only off-spring that did not look like typical mex-mex in the 4 years of breeding the pair.
Sorry Doug....
It does not look like a pure thayeri....Nor like any of the thayeri in our captive bred gene pool from reputable breeders.
The wider red bands leads me to lean more towards ruthveni X mex mex.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
After I looked at the pic again earlier, I definitely roll with ruthveni lineage.
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
if you really suspect thayeri then look for ontogenic chages as it ages. by that, i mean, if you start to notice more orange creeping to the gray in the lower 1/3 of your snake then it was most likely a thayeri mix.
however, mex mex have been both intentionally and unintentionally crossed with ruthveni in the past, and is the most likely culprit here.
either way, you have a nice looking snake. if you ever have any issues with it probably having ruthveni blood in it let me know and i'll take it off your hands.
Its not an issue to me. I was just trying to get ideas of what to pair it up with. I bought it because I liked it and the price was decent.
Agreed, looks like a hybrid.
4lakessnakes.com
not really a hybrid even if it has thayeri or other mexicana blood in it.
it's a mexicana cross.
>>not really a hybrid even if it has thayeri or other mexicana blood in it.
>>
>>it's a mexicana cross.
Crossing subspecies results in a HYBRID!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
n/p
As Mark stated below and as many of us Mexicana-heads know there are only a limited amount of Mexicana bloodlines in our hobby.....And at the present it doesn't look like we will get any new blood into our collections/breeding groups for a while......So, why in the hell would anyone produce hybrid crosses with these?
Hybridizing with mexicana should not be condoned......A L. m. mexicana is very unlike a L. m. thayeri and should not be considered "close enough" to breed them together then sell their offspring as pure of either subspecies..........Actually Thayeri are more like Alterna than any of their subspecific cousins (greeri or mex mex).........
But with any kingsnake range there are overlapping inbetweeners in Mexico......It is a taxonomic mess that needs more attention......For now let's just leave it the way it is and quit muddying the known waters......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
Exactly!!! Very good post John!!
Unfortunately, the reasons why someone would produce hybrid crosses with the snakes you mentioned, would be first and foremost, selfishness.
Second, laziness. The unwillingness to pick up and read books that illustrate the characteristics of snakes and the reasons why there are subspecies to begin with.
Third, an uncaring nature towards fellow herpers with crossing this and that, and a feel-good mentality, that results in unfortunate " surprises " down the line for those who thought they bought a pure animal, only to be extremely let down, due to actions by those who are more interested in biological perversion and who get bored with the natural, and are seeking for some form of unseen excitment, creating what they think is " new and exciting " but scientifically unproductive, and having our hobby take a step backwards, not forwards.
Overall, not caring about the big picture of things with their irresponsible actions, the propagation of the animals and species as a whole, nor anyone else for that matter.
Very sad!
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Genesis 1:1
Several years ago I had a trio of albino thayeri x ruthven crosses that were quite high percentage thayeri. I loved those animals. They were shockingly awesome in color and thayeri in every other way that you didn't need a gene sequencer to tell.
I ended up moving them out because having them made it hard to sell my straight up thayeri. As much as I liked the albinos I liked the normal’s more and to this day I go for prefer more wild types that few people strive to produce.
In any case I've always felt the bashing of all hybrids was BS. The guy who started the line of thayeri I had IMHO did an incredible job and I thought and still do think that his was a well conceived and executed project. I know this isn't a popular opinion but we are talking about captive-bred animals folks. Damn few of us are doing preservation work and most select for eye candy.
I'm cool if you want to keep animals that are genetically pure as possible but the impetus to do so is on you. Riling against the reality that most Mexicana lines were compromised long before many of us knew they existed and that some continue to do so just doesn’t seam rational!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Though I am gaining a deeper appreciation for more natural locality animals. I don't think people making mutts are going to disrupt the balance of the universe. We are not replenishing wild populations with our pets, and there will always be breeders of pure forms of anything. Heck if anything it makes those pure specimens all the more valuable, I think. I have a couple mutts so to speak and I like them. Would i have gotten them knowing what I know now? No, I wouldn't. I have some Sinaloans that I crossed with Nelsons before I really knew better. I wish I had some pure Cosalas and maybe I will. But the people I see who are buying the mixed snakes are mostly newbies who just want a cool snake at a good price. Is anyone who is serious about purity gonna buy babies from an unknown newbie? Just my thoughts. I know I sound like I'm riding the fence, and that's because I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I believe the market will balance it'self out. Some people will always go out of their way and pay higher prices for what they think is a purebred animal. we see it in the dog world even though all dogs are hybrids unless we have a dingo or a wolf. And I'm not certain about the Dingo for hat matter. But hey why doesn't this get a "HOT TOPIC" sticker?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
Yeah, I have always understood those points that most crossers/hybridizers always justify it with them never being released back into nature, or replenish wild captive stock for scientific purposes either.
The thing that always seems to get "side-stepped" constantly about all this is that it ISN'T ABOUT disrupting the natural balance at all, my point has ALWAYS been that it throws a "wrench" into the genetic integrity of CAPTIVE collections. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with snakes in nature at all, well most of the time anyway.
It's the captive snakes in collections that are always being offered that are constantly getting diluted. And it is simply getting harder and harder for people that don't know, or have the many years of experience to distinguish exactly what they are looking at and go onto get MORE breeding projects going with these crossed snakes that usually end up with snakes that can many times be nothing close to whatever subspecies they "thought" they were getting(or producing). This is what I have been saying for years.
And that is just half of the equation. The other half are the one's that continually make the crosses on purpose that inevitably get sold by the countless thousands in the hobby. All these countless thousands of crossed snakes NEVER are just sold and that is the end of it, .....no, they become the "new" source of breeding projects wherever they end up when they are old enough to breed. This cycle folds by many times from just a few, so I wonder how many times has it folded with all the staggering amounts that have been out there for all these many, many year?
Now on the other side of the coin, the VERY well-known(nameless) cornsnake breeder certainly didn't help wild populations of cornsnakes by releasing many countless hundreds if not many thousands of crazy multi-morph cornsnakes up and down the entire eastern seaboard of the United States..HAHA! 
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Yeah but even with all the mud in the water today, most of us know where we can get a pure glass of Disani, lol. And at over a dollar a bottle too.
About the cornsnake release, I must have missed that one? That really wasn't a good idea at all!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
Very good post! The wide spectrum of the problem, as a whole, tends to either get overlooked, or many simply don't want to think about headaches it entails.
Either way, the results are negative.
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Genesis 1:1
Yeah, it's a fact that is virtually impossible to dispute realistically.
The Colonel's "secret recipe" is spread far and wide throughout this hobby. 
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Not only the Colonel's secret recipe, but a combination of both Heinz 57 AND Prego pasta sauce....." It's in there! "
LOL!
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Genesis 1:1
Yeah, I forgot to also use the ....."it's in there" quote..LOL!
"So what kind of snake are you looking to buy Mr.?"...."cause whatever is on my little table here..."it's in there"..HAHAAA!!
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
HAHA! Too funny AND sad, both at the same time!
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Genesis 1:1
For sure bro!....funny yet sad.........
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
I think you guys miss my entire point. That hybrids are so pervasive gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself form the masses.
There is an old saying, "If one lives in a glass house one should not throw stones." Well, in regard to thayeri, we may not live in a glass house but it damn sure had a load of windows. Do what you can, support like minded breeders, share information and let your animals and ethics speak for themselves.
Making accusations about other's animals or pining for a reality that doesn't exist accomplishes jack squat. I can look at your adds and web pages and tell who has the better stocks. The continuing debate isn't needed or constructive.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
"I think you guys miss my entire point"
Not at all Tony, not at all. But now that you mention it, what one "single" point was that? There IS no single point, or even a few points either, there are many COUNTLESS points to this issue, and no matter how many of them are ever touched on, the "octagon" ring shows up in no time. I was thinking about making a very long post regarding this topic, but there is really no use in doing so. People will go on doing doing what they do, and believing what they want to believe, and nothing anyone says here will change anything, but it will certainly illicit lots of disagreement and bickering(as always I might add).
I could go on for several feet about the subject, but it always gets into a big freakin ROMPER ROOM every single time. I have certain views on all this that have come from 43 years of owning many countless snakes over the years, and studying in great depth on MANY of them, so to say I don't know about any points regarding this is simply ridiculous!
Now about the websites you mentioned earlier, if you see anything I happen to have missed, or not understood on mine, please do bring it to my attention if you would like.
Did I really miss any "point" with this thread?, .......hardly. I just don't want to get involved too much in something that will have no real outcome anyway. But I will definitely continue to do what I think is best for myself AND the hobby as a whole, just like I have always done. 
regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Tony, I was not replying to your post whith what I said, I was simply posting some thoughts to Jorge was all. I first thought you said "you guy's missed THE point", I now see you actually said "MY" point. So I am just letting you know NONE of what I said pertained to your post, but was rather some comments about the whole issue as a whole over many years. My silly comments go FAR, FAR beyond what they actually seem like they do. Because like I said earllier, I really don't like to get too involved with this most of the time, because I am all too aware of what inevitably happens every time it does, although I do make some posts and comments from time to time about it now and then.
Anyway, what we were saying had absolutely nothing to do with your particular post once I re-read it..LOL!
But just the same, if you want to discuss anything I have on my sight, please do.
regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Doug the format is not generally conducive to a good discussion regardless of the topic. My experience at least is that that is not the norm but hey its what we have......
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Yes, I certainly agree Tony. Words in text alone often get misunderstood and can't convey thoughts like they normally would in person, etc...
regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"what one "single" point was that?"
touché
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
>>Though I am gaining a deeper appreciation for more natural locality animals. I don't think people making mutts are going to disrupt the balance of the universe.
They will not disrupt the balance of the universe at all.....
They will contaminate a population of snakes that we can no longer get in the wild......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
Not if you do your "homework" John. But then the point is that its really impossible to do that anyway without all the name smearing you see on the gb forum.
I think my point is breed what you like. If it looks like X its most likely X if you got it from a breeder who shares your values. If down the road it throws something atypical don't assume that thundering in your ears is the pouding hooves of the four horsemen of the apocolyps. The sun will rise the next day.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Of course you and I know that, but not everyone who has mexicana do their homework......
Mis-interpretation, bad records and Mis-representation happens all the time.......
Didn't you see the classified ad where the guy was trying to sell a wild caught 2007 Thayeri.......Saying it was very rare and wanted $500 for it?
It was a plain and simple case of Mis interpretation or the seller sold these to him and told him a flat out lie.........
That is muddying the waters......
And no homework was done........LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
they [bleep] and moan about name smearing and they [bleep] and moan about not having "good" snakes.
Ignorance is bliss I guess, well from now on I'll let them buy their mutts and laugh like hell (to myself).
It's more common than most even realize, some very popular lines of so called pure bred animals are in fact descended from hybrids.
What the ignorant folks don't realize, is that the gray-band folks knew this as fact and saw these things with their own two eyes.
Then we get morons that claim to have rare locality gray-bands and don't even know what county or mountain range they collected it in. hahahaha
What a freaking joke. I now subscribe to the philosophy that if I want something good, I get it myself. I don't care what the ignorant think, and I don't care about educating them either. Ignorant post thier so called locality 10th generation captive bred hybrids everyday - hahahaha
Not directed at you John.
anyone in the kingsnake forum [bleep]ing and moaning about name smearing in the gray-band forum is the ultimate hypocrite.
Joe I don't think I smear names here so I don't think I'm the "ultimate hypocrite". I may challenge FR a "bit" but if you've been following those interactions I think you'll find that an appreciation has developed.
I like and have learned a lot from many of the locality guys on the gb forum but, like any group of people, there are those in it for good reasons and those who are just following the masses because they think its good marketing. What I dislike is when good names get dragged into debates from which they are several generations of breeding removed. I think it's unfair at best and malicious at worst and for the record I know that many there remain above the fray.
For the record my point in this thread is this: most thayeri lines are corrupt. I do not advocate further crossing I just believe that it's the responsibility of those who want to work with the most pure lines come up with the means to do so. Griping about some who continue doing crosses doesn't accomplish anything.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
You didn't see with it your own eyes, you don't have intimate knowledge of what occurred, therefor you don't know what you're talking about. So unless you have some FACTS leave out the digs on the gray-band forum.
My Dear "favorite arrogant list-making friend":
I'm not responding to, or speaking of, a specific incident. I think the purity debate, as its engaged is counter productive regardless of who is right or wrong. I'm sorry if my take that the gb forum exemplifies this is offensive to you but that's how I see it. Lastly you should know that my "digs" aren't personal.
Yours truly,
The "ultimate hypocrite"
PS I think drinks with you are going to be interesting!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
You should take a look at "you own house" (the kingsnake forum) before making an example of the Gray-banded Kingsnake forum (which has been UBER quiet for a long time now).
So if that is how you see it, maybe you need glasses, because indeed it makes you sound like a hypocrit. that's How I see it.
The gb forum has indeed been quiet lately! Beyond that, I see that I have irritated you again Joe so I'll bid you a good day and leave it at that.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
It's probably been quiet because they've run everyone out of there, ha ha! I know I won't go there, and i am also sure it's a mutual feeling. I know, I know.....
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
great post tony, but you sold them just because they didnt sell well?!? gee thats a SAD song if i ever heard one.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
no I sold them because having them subjected my more pure lines to a level of scrutiny that I didn't want to deal with. The albinos sold quite well but were moved because I liked the normals better.
The concept that you can't do both irritates me but given the choice I chose to keep more pure lines.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Yep...So why not just keep it as it is and quit making it harder and harder to find the purest thayeri our hobby has to offer?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
>>Several years ago I had a trio of albino thayeri x ruthven crosses that were quite high percentage thayeri. I loved those animals. They were shockingly awesome in color and...
>>I ended up moving them out because having them made it hard to sell my straight up thayeri....
>> The guy who started the line of thayeri...
I think I know who you're referring to and I called him one day, quite some time ago and just asked him a few questions as it related to his reasoning for doing this. There is no doubt the hybrids he's produced are stunning (and sell for close to $1000 on his website), but I shared my reservations about crossing completely different species.
I remember, as I'm sure most of you do, seeing the Jungle Corn for the first time. Although it wasn't a bad looking snake, it really didn't sit well with me. I remembered thinking "so what's the point?" And even now, when I'm scanning the KS classifieds and I see the occasional hybrid _______(whatever), I might stop and look, but only just to look...much like taking a look into the tent, at the carnival, to see the "world's smallest pony".
Surprisingly, the aforementioned breeder, for the most part, shared my views on the matter. My first question to him when I called, had to do with his feeling on crossing two different locales of basically the same snake (I had one already; he had the other for sale). "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!" was his response. And he backed it up with a very no-nonsense and intelligent reason....much the same as what many of you have stated. For example, He pointed out the physical attributes of one of these subspecies vs the other, and backed his opinion up with a well qualified reason one would NOT want to cross these two. Well this, then of course, dove tailed into me asking, if that was how he felt about it, why would he have created an all exclusive breeding project specifically centered around the crossing of thayeri/ruthveni? Well his answer kind of made sense to me. He likened it to dogs and cats. Many of the "pure" AKC registered breeds today, are the result of outcrossing different breeds "yesterday" (figuratively speaking). He said his choice of these two species was a very calculated one and he had worked with these two species extensively prior to this. In a nut shell, I guess one could say it was more than just an educated guess on his part. And...he recognized there would likely be a market for them. (I personally don't think profit was his primary driving force, after talking to him about it)
Now before any one sends out a lynch mob, I AM NOT COMPARING APPLES AND ORANGES here. Domesticated dogs and cats are one thing and I think everyone realizes this. Reptiles, and reptile enthusiasts are completely different. "Locality specific" and "pure" and "----Line" are terms used more often in this arena then any where else it seems, and for good reason. LOL!!! It is important to everyone here, I'm sure.
I personally agree with Jassiter regarding the "muddying" of waters here. Although I must say I've seen some nice looking "artifical" hybrids out there, I prefer nature's "eye candy" over man's.
Just my opinion of course; please don't shoot me for it.
from how i read it, his motivation IS monetary.
and thank you for another opinion on the "opinion thread"
technically crossing an Applegate thayeri with a Vivid line thayeri produces a hybrid
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
>>technically crossing an Applegate thayeri with a Vivid line thayeri produces a hybrid
>>-----
Especially when the locales are not known
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
Lots of definitions of what a hybrid is... It could be any kind of cross.
But it seems like its pretty universally accepted in the hobby that the definition would be crossing two different species.
If I had to guess, I would guess that that snake is some sort of ruthveni X mex-mex cross. Whether you call it hybrid, or man made cross, or whatever, is dependent on what your definition of a hybrid is and what your take on mexicana taxonomy is.
Where most mex-mex, ruthveni, and greeri in the hobby can be traced to a few specific localities, thayeri are a different matter. What exists in the thayeri hobby today is a mish-mash of many different localities from throughout the range, so some may consider them to be a bit of a "mutt" aready. I gotta agree with John that there is no reason to make the captive mexicana gene pool even muddier than it already is.
There is noe reason to make ANY subspecies "muddier" than it already is, but that is what too many people want to do now days. I do not like that aspect of this hobby at all.
Too many people don't care if they throw "ball bearings" out into the roller rink
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
>>Lots of definitions of what a hybrid is... It could be any kind of cross.
>>But it seems like its pretty universally accepted in the hobby that the definition would be crossing two different species.
>>
>>If I had to guess, I would guess that that snake is some sort of ruthveni X mex-mex cross. Whether you call it hybrid, or man made cross, or whatever, is dependent on what your definition of a hybrid is and what your take on mexicana taxonomy is.
>>
>>Where most mex-mex, ruthveni, and greeri in the hobby can be traced to a few specific localities, thayeri are a different matter. What exists in the thayeri hobby today is a mish-mash of many different localities from throughout the range, so some may consider them to be a bit of a "mutt" aready. I gotta agree with John that there is no reason to make the captive mexicana gene pool even muddier than it already is.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rogue River Reptiles
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
>>>Crossing subspecies results in a HYBRID!
what BS!!! EVEN taxonimist(splitters) REALIZED how closely related they are and christened them SUBS... get a grip...
want a hybrid cross a turtle and a snake that'd be a hybrid.
FTR ssp. crosses would be intergrades NOT hybrids.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Actually, in this case. Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of. Herpetologists still consider all 3 "subspecies" to be the same. There is emerging evidence to the contrary (Bryson, etc). But I have yet to see any suggested new classifications? Please correct me if you know something more.
4lakessnakes.com
>>>>>Crossing subspecies results in a HYBRID!
>>
>>what BS!!! EVEN taxonimist(splitters) REALIZED how closely related they are and christened them SUBS... get a grip...
>>want a hybrid cross a turtle and a snake that'd be a hybrid.
>>FTR ssp. crosses would be intergrades NOT hybrids.
Intergrades are naturally occuring hybrids....
If you do it in your herp room you are still producing hybrids.....
Nothing is wrong with it but it does muddy the waters for these animals that we can no longer go and collect legally......
That is all.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
>>>Intergrades are naturally occuring hybrids....
no they are not there is a B I G differance between intergrades and hybrids.
>>>If you do it in your herp room you are still producing hybrids.....
i suppose every cbb snake could be considered a hybrid.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
You are certainly entitled to YOUR opinion Thomas.......
Crossing a Californiae with a Floridana is a hybrid by my opinion.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
>>>You are certainly entitled to YOUR opinion Thomas.......
gee thanks john.
>>>Crossing a Californiae with a Floridana is a hybrid by my opinion.......
yes but your opinion doesnt make it nothing more than just that AN OPINION everyone has one and is certainly entitled to state it, but, the fact is that cross would be a intergrade and NOT a hybrid.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
I've never heard anyone refer to two different subspecies being crossed as hybrids. Two subspecies in nature crossing are intergrades, and crossing two different subspecies in our snake rooms are non natural intergrades. Crossing two different species like a kingsnake to a Gopher snake is a hybrid whether it be in nature or in your home. There is a huge difference between hybrid and intergrade.
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Ross has it right, in my opinion. What we may "know" to be "pure" from the field back in the day may very well turn out to be some animals in an intergrade zone, which I believe is very highly possible. If we can just keep this to opinions it would be great, because really, there are only a handful of people who have collected any of the mentioned animals that ever frequent, or non-frequent this forum. If you haven't been there, done that, I don't think any facts can be drawn, only guesses. To each their own, I know what I like, and I know who I would buy from to get what I like. Are they pure? Yeah, pure snakes!
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Todd Hughes
Yes, I think what I wrote is best way to divide up the differences in crosses, but when you look up the definition, they use different kinds of hybrids to describe a lot of these crosses. We as a whole don't use the word hybrid like that, which just makes things more confusing, in my opinion.
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You are about to summon the all knowing one!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
hahaha you've got folks in here that have never left the eastern seaboard yet they are experts on all things from everywhere else because they kept one in a plastic box with no thermal gradient lmao
These fora are the biggest joke - unless you're having a BROMANCE with your buddies hahahaha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)
After reading this, I see where you guys are coming from. Disregard my last post.
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never use wikipedia when quoting science...
hahahahahaha Great, thats just great! lol I like the system most people go by: "A cross between two species is a hybrid and that is the only hybrid there is".
I've always felt crossing two different locales of the same subspecies was creating an unnatural cross, but wouldn't go as far as calling it a hybrid. We already use intergrade to describe the crossing of two different subspecies, I think using hybrid in different ways just confuses people. I feel the system thats being used by the majority of herpers is the best. It adds less confusion, so I will stick with it.
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thats what i said?!?!?
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Exactly, I wasn't responding to your post. Sorry.
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That is YOUR opinion....And I shared mine.....
You talks so "as a matter of fact" and you haven't based anything on fact..........
"In molecular genetics, a hybrid DNA molecule is a DNA molecule with strands of different origin."
Californiae and Floridana have two DIFFERENT molecular DNA strands......it is proven.........
"Hybrids between species of the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids.
So a "Cross or Intergrade" as you say IS STILL A FREAKIN HYBRID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
well whatever john, it is a matter of fact getula is getula is getula. personally i dont need a genetisist or taxonimst to tell me whats up w/animals that ive personally worked with and studied for most of my life whats what. like i said in a few post back, there is a B I G differance in hybrids and intergrades apparently you just cant see that.
,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
>>well whatever john, it is a matter of fact getula is getula is getula. personally i dont need a genetisist or taxonimst to tell me whats up w/animals that ive personally worked with and studied for most of my life whats what. like i said in a few post back, there is a B I G differance in hybrids and intergrades apparently you just cant see that.
I agree.....there is a big difference and they are only technically the same thing, but we use many terms wrong in our hobby......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
many terms are misused and many terms like "pure" certainly are not even understood.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
>>many terms are misused and many terms like "pure" certainly are not even understood.
All too true.....
With my thayeri I use the term "the best our hobby has to offer" instead of pure usually, but it slips sometimes......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
but don't feed the troll...
keep responding to trolls and this tread will be deleted.
who's trolling???
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Brian you are kinda smart.
Actually just the bad stuff will go.
Guys mom is watching
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!
and i'm actually kinda proud of this thread.
both sides have explained themselves succinctly and without degeneration.
best "opinion" thread of 2010 imo.
Besides, there is no reason we can’t be civil, is there?
-King Leonidas
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
As apposed to Big Brother......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
John you are actually correct... a hybrid is a cross btwn any two "True Breeders"... so if i bred a Lavender Cali king to a Ghost cali king the resulting offspring would be F1 hybrids.
The term Hybrid is misused alot!
When you get a clutch of snakes and you have VAST variation the adults used are not "true breeders" (for example you breed two banded cali kings and end up with all sorts of crazy patterned offspring)
If i breed a Cane field Floridana to a South Fl. Brooksi the babies would be hybrids.
So in a sense yes! most (if not all) captive bred snakes are hybrids
Snake X Turtle is just silly as it's not possible
~ZF
>>>The term Hybrid is misused alot!
it sure is! a WHOLE lot! ,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Not really sure about the purity but the reason the second and third pic didn't post is because the leading bracket [ is missing. pretty snake though. It would be nice if you had access to some pics of the parents.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
The breeder is at the shows on a regular basis. I'm going to see if he can provide pics of the parents.
Of course can't tell from here. I will add that I have seen mex-mex years ago that were selectively bred, and a few did come out much more red than others. I think males in those cases. Some had reduced banding compared to siblings. Never saw one as reduced as yours. Cool snake.
I did see a few offspring from snakes collected somewhere near Jalpan, Mexico many years ago. I guarantee if posted here, those babies would be considered crosses of some sort. There is a tremendous variability in Mexican kingsnake races when you consider the broad range. What we see in captivity are the results of line breeding among relatively few localities. What we have in captivity does not represent all Mexican kingsnakes and the possibilities in pattern, shape, color, etc.
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Mark
n/p
Mark,
The Jalpan area Kingsnakes were mis labeled as Mex Mex.
Dave Barker and others bred them into Mex Mex years ago.....others tried to pass them off as Smithi, but we all know now that they are and always have been Ruthveni.
And yes.....male Mex Mex are almost always brighter red than females.....All the high saddled Mex Mex are typically females too......But not all females have high saddles......But all males have saddles that point up at the ventrals......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
"but we all know now that they are and always have been Ruthveni"
That's right John. Very similar to everyone thinking years ago that certain ruthveni were actually Jalisco milks(arcifera).
~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
>>"but we all know now that they are and always have been Ruthveni"
>>
>>That's right John. Very similar to everyone thinking years ago that certain ruthveni were actually Jalisco milks(arcifera).
Yep....I can see a distinct difference.....Head distinct from the neck...Unlike a Triangulum......
Also the Tapalpa Ruthveni don't have the arched (arcifera) black bands like the Jalisco milks do........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
yep!,...and thus "arcifera" = literally meaning "arch-like".
~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
I haven't read any of the other replies but I can say that is NOT a straight up pure Mex Mex........
It looks to have some Ruthveni influence......Or thayeri.....
Have you done any subcaudal or ventral scale counts.......
I see no post ocular spot that most Mex Mex have......
I see an a nuchal window that is unlike a Mex Mex's nuchal window.....
The "tridot trifoliate" on the head is there but is not typical of Mex Mex.......
It could be the result of line breeding, but I have never seen anything like it after generations of breeding siblings and siblings to parents......
It looks like one of those hybrid striped thayeri that were being sold about 8 years ago to me........
just my two cents.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
No, I have not tried to do any counts. I have only had the snake since saturday. I'm also going to try and at least get pics of the parents. Had a friend that used to breed alot of thayeri. I could easily see how someone could have gotten a thayeri that appeared simular to a mex-mex and thought they were breeding a true mex-mex pair. Thayeri is definitely the subspecies in the mexicana group that makes it more difficult at times. Lee Abbot looked at it at the show and his first thought was milksnake phase thayeri. I definitely plan to do some more research into its background.
>>No, I have not tried to do any counts. I have only had the snake since saturday. I'm also going to try and at least get pics of the parents. Had a friend that used to breed alot of thayeri. I could easily see how someone could have gotten a thayeri that appeared simular to a mex-mex and thought they were breeding a true mex-mex pair. Thayeri is definitely the subspecies in the mexicana group that makes it more difficult at times. Lee Abbot looked at it at the show and his first thought was milksnake phase thayeri. I definitely plan to do some more research into its background.
It has that MSP thayeri look but the wide red bands makes it look more Ruthveni to me than thayeri. I have lots of thayeri, Mex Mex and Ruthveni and have only been breeding them since 1997, but I have never seen anything pop out that looked like that one....it is very cool looking, just don't know what it is exactly.....I would call it a Mixicana........and sell its offspring as such until lineage is proved and accepted......
Pics of the parents plus the lineage of the parents would be useful. Find out where the breeder got the parents from and go from there.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com
who sold you that snake? inquiring minds want to know.
I'm not going to do that. I'm not out to give a breeder a bad name by any means. And as I have stated before I would like to get some more info on the parents from him. I'm not going to claim its a hybrid or integrade without facts. This was certainly not the intent of my post to begin with. I bought the snake because it appeals to me.
Sometimes with these possible integrades I think we get caught up too much in artificial borders created in our own minds. Most of us will never have a chance to actually snake hunt theses enviroments to ever really know what the animals in the wild truly look like. The animals in the herp hobby we call pure have been bred for years for certain visual aspects. Calling them pure may not always be accurate.
Thayeri alone is a big mystery. Is it truly a subspecies or a natural integrade? Its always seemed weird to me that a single clutch can produce animals that resemble all the other subspecies. Then again it could be the subspecies the others descended from. Who knows? How do we prove any of it?
HAHAHAHA - SO IF YOU SAY WHO YOU BOUGHT IT FROM YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM A BAD NAME?????? HAHAHAHA - EXACTLY!
the funniest thing about this whole thread, to me, is that, while I personally have not been there, I personally know several that have, and from their photographic evidence of animals they have had in hand in the field, not very many animals that we have in our collections resemble in any way the animals from the field. We inbred them for so long, we can actually make a "clean" looking animal that is thought to be "pure". Any flavor, any variety. So, you might as well get used to the fact that 90% of the animals on the market are in some way corrupt, hell, I personally think that some brought in back in the day were intergrades, we just don't know enough about the ranges, let alone what is inside the makeup of these things. They all contain the ability to throw something different every once in a while. The real appeal is that thayeri do it most of the time, whereas the other mexicana don't do it nearly as often. To each their own, this will never be resolved to everyones' satisfaction, lol.
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Todd Hughes
for the umpteenth time, the purity of the animals is not the issue, it's the lying sack of [bleep] breeders out to make a buck on unsuspecting customers and newbies that don't have a clue.
Then you got hypocrites over here in the smearing fora that stick up for the lying cheating greedy bastards - and call each other bro and .... holy hell...no thanks
I wish I said it as well
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
No, if I gave you his name you may intend to try badmouth him. I have no problem with snake or I would not have bought it. I simply don't name people until I have all the facts. A statement on hybrids or integrades was not my intent of the post to begin with. I did not really expect it to turn into one either.
1) You said you bought it because you liked it, and didn't care about it being a hybrid whatever, then turn around and make a post ASKING FOR OPINIONS. So do you care if it is a hybrid or not? Because it IS.
2) Your first post says it was bred straight up mex mex, and just a few posts later, this one (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1868787,1868811) you say "My own guess is not straight up thayeri it at least has some in in it." So WTH? Sounds to me that a) either you already know it's a hybrid or b) you don't know what the heck you're talking about - what is supposed to be mex mex or thayeri?
So the only thing clear to me is that you don't have a freaking clue why you bought it or what it is, and you don't give a rats ass if anyone else gets duped into buying one. Typical of these forums.
First off it was the only one like it, so nobody else will be buying it. The opinion I was seeking was if anybody else had seen anything like it pop up in mex-mex. My theory was something I came up with long after buying it just based on having bred thayeri in the past and having produced milksnake phase. Granted none colored to that extent. After thought also got me to thinking that I have produced thayeri that resemble mex-mex. That it is possible the breeder does not even realize one of his adults is not pure mex-mex. He did have animals labled thayeri on his table as well. I would assume he knows about the two different subspecies.
I'm not naming the person because I'm not sure of the facts. I don't care if that pleases you or not. I could just as easily claim your collection is full of hybrids. I can't prove that anymore than you can prove this animals linage. Until I have a chance to get more info from the breeder I don't intend to come here and name him. I feel that is only fair. I know as much about his collection as I know about yours. And at this point that is nothing. I was simply looking for other theories. I do have to admit I find the bad mouthing of other breeders here unappealing. There is always two sides to a story and we rarely here both sides.
that's your problem, is your asking for theories and that's not what you need. what you need is FACTS and if we knew who the breeder was maybe we could tell you where he got his animals, or maybe we could tell he is/(was) a stright up guy, or maybe we could tell you he is a known hybrid dealer, or maybe we could tell you 100 different things...
oh hell, you don't give a rats ass about that, all you want are THEORIES.... THAT MAKES YOU the problem. Theres too many theories already and theories prove nothing.
I don't care if my posts don't please you or not.
First off I don't know either of the guys names. I know the name of the company based on the business card in my wallet. I know they have been selling at the Repticon shows for a while now. I know everything else on his table appeared to be what it was claimed to be. I have no real reason to doubt them at this point. I also know most of the guys known for hybrids in the usual florida reptile circuit. Most don't hide the fact when they produce hybrids. I also know a large percent of what is being sold on some well known breeders tables were not produced by them. In fact I have sold many of them animals they put on their tables.
You may not find theories interesting but some of us do. Thats why I asked for opinions and not facts. I'm not here to give you their information so that you can lable them hybrid breeders.
Oh, and by the way I have been keeping and breeding reptiles for more than 25 years. I'm not a novice but I don't claim to be an expert either. And have seen odd looking animals come of straight up subspecies before. I have also learned alot of theories in this industry and hobby are just that, theories. The shear fact so many different looking animals pop up in the industry every year has taught me not to be so quick to point fingers and make accusations.
You're not interested in facts, only theories ahahahahaha
When you're ready to start tracking the origin of that snake let us know.
I'm not interested in your so called facts because you cannot provide them. You can only offer theory at this point about this animal. You may be able to offer fact if you produced animals that look like this. In that case it would only be about the animals you produced.
I know it's a hybrid
>>I'm not interested in your so called facts because you cannot provide them.
Neither can YOU!!! aaahahahaha classic!
>>>You can only offer theory at this point about this animal.
uhhhh YUP you too!!! ahahaha JEESUS this is funny
>>>You may be able to offer fact if you produced animals that look like this. In that case it would only be about the animals you produced.
blah blah, why do you just come out with it?
Is there any mothers in the audience that have any plastic bags in their purses, filled with an assortment of saltine crackers, butter cookies, or Fig Newtons, that can give one to the previous poster, so his tantrums can be quieted down??? While some of the facts stated are indeed with merit, the belittling attitude brought upon by the immaturity needs to be counteracted with a tasty morsel of a cookie.
Please help!!!
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Genesis 1:1
ahhhhahaha I'm done Billy
for the moment anyway..... until I see more childish remarks that need to be met with the same
Thank you!
Joe, it is one thing to have your opinions, which have a lot of merit. They really do, and I would agree with most of what you say. The thing is, the way you were coming across is totally immature, and uncalled for. No need to speak to Jeff the way you have been.
So, in all humor AND seriousness, just calm down for a sec, and don't take the subject so serious that it makes it not even worth discussing anymore.
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Genesis 1:1
Billy,
I agree I really do. Tony pissed me off first, then Jeff , well I digress. I made my point and I'm done.....
Great, oh so now its my fault....
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
I said I'm done..... lol.... please stop lol..... first round is on me.....
it wont matter tomorrow anyway Joe. If the whole thread is here then I'll be amazed! Second round is on me.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
at least some of it will be here.
I got the third round......
except for the parts where big dog overdoes it
as unbelievable as some of it sounds....have you ever talked to the man in person or over the phone? Maybe some people just can't believe. sad, really.
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Todd Hughes
see how it works? if you offer 1st and 2nd rounds to each other, the thread remains intact! But really, some people get all bent over having their noses tweaked by people who KNOW what they are talking about, and try to make them out to be the bad guy, lol, when I need a little reality show, I come to ks! It boggles the mind, it really does, that those who haven't and can't and don't try to trash those who have and can and did. Years ago. Really, get some age behind you and the experiences and then you too can join in a debate. Right now lots of you guys are coming to a gun fight with a fingernail file. Like the attitudes or not, you gotta see the facts. Anywaaaaay.......
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Todd Hughes
>>Billy,
>>I agree I really do. Tony pissed me off first, then Jeff , well I digress. I made my point and I'm done.....
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
>>ahhhhahaha I'm done Billy
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
He can't help it, it rubs off from hanging around the all knowing one!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
You mean the "all mighty" self-proclaimed pioneer that lives in the great "Emerald City"??
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
Shush, you awaken him!
That's hilarious!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra
"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE FORUM CURTAIN!!!"
~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
wow, stunning, I just came up with these, you'll love em!!! awesome theories, ready???
1) The breeder saw you coming a mile away and said "here's an easy Mark, think I'll dupe him with some story about these popped out of a straight up mex mex breeding"
2) After the breeder goes to bed his snakes slip out their cages and have wild hybrid sex all night long, and then let themselves back into the cages before the breeder wakes up.
3) You bred that snake, know it's a hybrid, and made this post just to start trouble.
4) You bought it from a guy named Tony that doesn't know his snakes are of questionable origin.
Want me to think of some more theories for you??? Awesome right??
Thanks. Now I know I should just ignore you.
yep im going with #3 ,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Should I take that personnal Joe?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
lol, you can DO eeet, ALL NIGHT LOOOONG!!! Too bad some folks can't see the trees bacause of the forest....
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Todd Hughes
Now we can see why "his" forum (gray bands) is falling into the outhouse. Nobody wants to get the "owner" started on one of his rampages.
theOLDherper
Pete
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