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Does anyone know how to breed for the super motley trait in boas? I've seen photos of them, but haven't seen any for sale in the classifieds section. Any information would be appreciated!

You breed motley to motley. The supers usually die!

I'm assuming that's a genetic issue? I know people have successfully bred them, just the same.

People have made Super Motleys , but nobody has bred a Super Motley. I don't knoe of any living over 2 yrs .
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Snake room janitor

Nobody is 100% sure of the genetics of the "super" motley. Nobody even knows if it is in fact a super..... No one has ever had one live long enough to breed because of all of the problems they have, they usually die very early.

The reason I put super in quotations and question whether or not the solid black motley is a super or not, is because many of these solid black animals have been produced from only 1 parent being a motley. These all black motleys are more common when breeding motley x motley, however there is a very large number of them being produced from motley x non-motley breedings also. This has happened many times within the last few years. Talk to Frank Martin, he has done it in many litters.

That being said, there is no saying whether or not this is truely a homozygous animal or if it is just a genetic freak that pops out on occasion when a motley breeds. The only way to know for sure is by breeding one, but nobody has gotten one to live long enough.

They are truely screwed up animals. Right from birth they have deformed heads, seemed to have spine problems in the way they move, and even the tongue flickers in a very weird manner. All boas tongues flicker up and down. The "super" motley only flickers up. It comes straight out and goes up, never flickering below the bottom jaw like other boas. Pete Kahl pointed this out to me several years ago.

My personal opinion, if you were considering breeding motleys with the intention of producing a super, don't waste your time. It looks more like a waste with every year that passes. However I would like to see someone prove all of these "theories" right or wrong, so I guess it would be worth it, it has to be proven one way or another eventually.

I do like the way they look and am considering doing it myself, not because I care about the genetics, I just like the solid black boa, I think it's awesome looking and I would like to have one in my collection.

Thanks for the information!

From what I understand, it must be a genetic condition, something to do primarily with motley X motley breeding specifically. Maybe it's just an issue of the bloodlines being used? I mean, I don't know much about the origins of the motley trait in captivity, but how many individuals could it be traced back to? and in that case, it's an issue that could be worked with.

Personally, ever since I saw one in Reptiles magazine a few years ago, I've wanted one of my own. A solid black boa? How awesome! I've also heard rumors of someday breeding a solid red boa, a.k.a "Red Devil," by breeding a hypo to a super motley.

You have alot of research and reading to do my friend !

I'll take care of the research you can do the reading

All Colombian Motley Boas are descended from one Motley;

I used to have my own document with the exact details but it was lost, this below will do quite fine.

Here is the story as told by Jeff Ronne

Where did the Motley Boas originate? The original Motley was a male import sold, or traded, by Strictly Reptiles in Florida to Ron St. Pierre. I spoke with Ron about this when he still owned all the Motleys. Ron St. Pierre bred that male successfully and produced a very small litter of babies of which between 3 and 5 were Motleys. Sorry I can't remember the exact number. When I spoke to him, only one of the babies was still alive but Ron owned both of them. Ron sold both of those Motleys to Jeremy Stone. That much I can remember.

I can't remember for sure but, I think Ron sold Jeremy one Motley at a time and maybe a year apart. Something like that. I can't remember if he sold him the original male first or the single baby male Motley that Ron produced which survived. I believe the original male Motley was named "Norman" and produced tons of Motleys for Jeremy who is really responsible for the larger success of the Motley project.

OK also

Jon Roylance Motley

There was a motley produced by a Colombian x Colombian breeding in 2001 and was expected to be proven in 2003 by Jon Roylance. The Motley trait is a codominant mutation and proves to be a promising project. Since the motley boa is primarily a pattern morph, all the color mutations can be plugged into it.

I do not believe the Roylance Motley ever produced any babies.

The Red Devil

The red devil will not ever occur why, Hypo Motley and super Motley are an impossibility,because Hypo and motley reside
on the same locus.

So a Hypo Super Motley would take three genes in a spot
that only allows two genes.

Will never happen

Hope this was helpful !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

While there are many things still to be proven about the motley/super motley, it looks more and more like motley and hypo genes are located on the same locus.

I don't know how familiar you are with genetics, so I will break this down a bit. In essence what that means is that if you take a hypo motley and breed it to a normal type colombian, the litter will consist of motleys, and hypos, but not a single hypo motley.

Reason being that since the genes rest on the same locus, they cannot travel TOGETHER into the offspring. The 2 genes separate and each offspring will only get one or the other, being either hypo OR motley, but never both.

If this theory holds true, that makes the "red devil" aka hypo super motley, a genetically impossible animal because breeding a hypo motley x hypo motley would produce hypo motleys because hypo would come from 1 parent, while motley comes from the other.

In order to create a hypo super motley, that would mean the hypo and motley gene were BOTH passed on from 1 parent (which in theory is impossible), while 1 motley gene was passed on from the other parent.

So where did the Red Devil come from and what the heck is the genetic make up of a red devil? Is it a hypo super motley? We still don't know, it's sort of a freak right now, another twist in the genetics of the motley that we haven't figured out yet.

Also, just to point you in the right direction, you mentioned you wanted to produce a red devil by breeding a hypo to a super motley. This again will not work because IF a super motley is in fact a super, all of the babies will be motleys, but because only 1 parent is a motley, they will not be supers. of course this throws the twist of super motley offspring from only 1 motley parent into the mix.

Your pairing of a super motley (if one were to ever breed) to a hypo would produce motleys and hypo motleys, and that's it, no red devils.

Again, this is all presumptions for now based on what we know (or think we know) about the genetics of motleys. In essence, we don't know much about it, it's a toss up with a lot of expirementing to be done yet.

The "super" motley only flickers up. It comes straight out and goes up, never flickering below the bottom jaw like other boas.

This statement is not completely accurate. I saw a 2 year old super motley at a show this summer. The snake belonged to Alex Bareiro of Boa Republic. It had a tongue flicker that only went in a "downward" movement. It was incapable of moving in the upward position.

Just wanted to shed a new observation on these animals.

Anthony-

All of the information I've gotten about super motleys and red devils has been incredibly helpful! I have a basic, "Bio 101" concept regarding genetics, so while I feel like I'm on the same page, it's unfortunate that there isn't very much information available. Still, I plan to breed motleys in the future...maybe by the time I get around to it, the community as a whole will have a better idea why these "super motleys" fail to thrive.

I always hear about you can not produce an hypo motley from a hypo motley to a normal, BUT I never hear from actually breeders who done this and posted the results of these litters. And I can only assume it has been tens/hundereds of pairings. Would like to know the 'real' results. Please post the results.

Also, so what some of you are saying is this;

Hypo X Motley = 25% Hypo Motley, 25% Motley, 25%Hypo, and 25% Normal.
Hypo Motley X Normal = 50% Motley and 50% Hypo (no hypo mots or normals)
Hypo Motley X Hypo = 25% Hypo Motley, 25% Super Hypo, 25% Motley, and 25% Hypo.

No 'real' results...