Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Jeff was complaining that he couldn't take a good photo to show the size of his large Monster Island triangulum, and Doug Mong & Amazondoc were giving him ideas on how to show the scale of the snake against a tape measure or yard stick by putting the snake against a wall w/ the tape measure or yardstick next to it as the snake moved down the wall.

Here is Jeff's latest photo.

I agree w/ Doug & Amazon, that the photo doesn't do the milk any justice for it's large size.
I thought I'd try and take a few photo w/ a yard stick for scale (as I couldn't find our tape measure, what can I say I've got kids). But the yardstick I think works just fine.

A yardstick is three feet long, or 36 inches. I have a rather large syspila that I've always wondered how long she is. Stretched out and held down she is 40 inches, four inches longer then the yardstick. Pretty big for a North American milk.

I also measured a 5 year old honduran I have.

He measured four feet two inches or 50 inches.

Well, I think the technique worked pretty well. I could leave the snake to crawl down the wall step back and take a photo w/ the yard stick next to it for scale.
This took me all of about ten minutes to photograph and load in to photobucket. Give it a try if you have to prove how big your snake is on the forum.

Or you could just take a five foot kid and have him hold the snake up.

-Dell

I love that dark hondo on the carpet. And great illustrations!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL......cool....easiest way is get a 5 foot kid or a six footer...and have him stand on the snakes' head and hold the rest up.....looks cool....step...ouch....

....nice idea....only other way is a plastic tube....

.....good luck..........
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........JY

I already regret having asked for something more positive in the way of proof regarding these MONSTER claims... having followed along in this forum for two plus years the outcome was as predictable as the sequence of the seasons.

I still haven't figured out though just where I expressed doubt about the "width of a STANDARD 20 fish tank!"... but the misrepresentation of what others have said was also... predictable.

I do agree however that the last photo Jeff posted does indeed seem to be a L.t.t of respectable size.

As you can see from the viper pit I have to constantly defend my position. The truth is it doesnt matter exactly how big they are, I dont claim to have any kind of record snake. My claim is simply that they are the biggest NA milk in the country and despite my "bad" pics, I dont see anyone stepping up with anything even close to that size. The OP has a nice 3plus foot Red, but I dont think anyone would argue that the snakes in my pics were bigger. Anyone NORMAL anyways. That wasnt his claim, and most of us get along fine. I take some good ribbing from Dmong, which is fine, but the rest of these jokers I wouldnt let pump my gas. They are the type that complain when in the lifeboat on the Titanic.....So if you took any sarcasm from me the wrong way my bad.

>>I dont claim to have any kind of record snake.

Errrrrr....yes, you did.

>>they are the biggest NA milk in the country

Sure enough -- "biggest NA milk in the country".

Prove it, Jeff.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Now a RECORD milk is an individual, I never claimed to have it, but both me and Petersons' field guide know its in the MCZ. When I say I have bigger milks(plural) that obviously means LINE of milks, no coincidence that they are from the same place is it? Now I cant go into your collection and measure and take pics of your snakes. I did with mine and I CONTEND that they are bigger, and have very boldly challenged the forum. Now as nice as that 40" Red was, it is not bigger than what I have posted. Until someone finds, grows and takes a pic I contend that mine are the biggest around! I am a man, thats what we do! Now some other man will post a pic and the group can have a discussion of which is bigger and scrutinize pics. I will GLADLY concede to a bigger milk, no problem because I am here for the snakes not the glory. Still not sure why you arent back on backyardchickens.com.

You're running yourself around in circles, Jeff.

We already know that the biggest NA milk on record is 52". You didn't even claim that your "huge" dead female was that long. Even your unsubstantiated claim was for 4 ft, not 52". Therefore, we already know that your snakes aren't the biggest NA milks ever found. So it's kind of a mystery why you keep going on about the size of your "huge" dead female.

Now, your Nantucket milk population may indeed be larger on average than most other populations. Big whoop. Proving *that* would require a whooooooooole lot more than one or two really bad pics....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>We already know that the biggest NA milk on record is 52".

Small correction. That should read "we already know that the biggest EASTERN milk on record is 52" ". There may be other subspecies with larger individuals -- dunno!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

FYI the biggest Eastern milk is 54" not 52", and I can cite the source. What is your source? FYI it is the biggest milk in the country, already did the work for you, just like you like it! Bet you cant even name all the ssp. without looking them up! What you dont know about milks could fill this forum day after day....I say that as a plea for contrition not a challenge! You dont even want to learn from guys like me, stop being a child.

>>FYI the biggest Eastern milk is 54" not 52", and I can cite the source.

That works for me. Since the snakes in your pics weren't 52" OR 54" according to your own admission, either is fine so far as I'm concerned.

Now, you have claimed (amongst others, I'm sure):

"I have had bigger milks than any found in the country. "
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

"mine are the biggest around!"
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

"My pics of them from that island are bigger than any milks from anywhere else in the country. "
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

"There is no landfill on the island. "
-- already disproven. Your yourself later admitted that there IS a landfill there. In fact, a man was KILLED at the (non-existent?) Nantucket landfill just this past June.

"the island is devoid of Raccoons, possums, fox, skunk and all mammalian predators, not even cats."
-- already disproven. Nantucket actually has quite a nice population of cats, dogs, and several species of rodents.

"I have pics of bigger ones than anyone else"
-- not yet proven. This is the one that we were trying to help you with, so you could get good pictures that actually established a reliable size estimate.

"Well, she is a big 4' female and I'm treating her but she is otherwise happy and healthy!"
-- this is the current injured one. Still no pics that would accurately establish the truth (or lack thereof) of your claim about her size.

Keep on trying, Jeff. You'll prove something eventually, if you just keep working at it.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"I have had bigger milks than any found in the country. "
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

DOC-My snakes come from the SAME locale!! They ARE the biggest in the country...Not sure if you are taking stupid classes, but maybe you can teach some!

"mine are the biggest around!"
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

DOC-Again, no need to repeat myself, learn from this!!

"My pics of them from that island are bigger than any milks from anywhere else in the country. "
-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.

DOC-READ that!! PICS!! There is no pic of the record, its in a pickle jar stupid!

"There is no landfill on the island. "
-- already disproven. Your yourself later admitted that there IS a landfill there. In fact, a man was KILLED at the (non-existent?) Nantucket landfill just this past June.

DOC-A landfill is not a transfer station.

"the island is devoid of Raccoons, possums, fox, skunk and all mammalian predators, not even cats."
-- already disproven. Nantucket actually has quite a nice population of cats, dogs, and several species of rodents.

DOC-there may be some cats now, dont know any dog that would prey on a milksnake. Rodents are NOT predators!! Geez!

"I have pics of bigger ones than anyone else"
-- not yet proven. This is the one that we were trying to help you with, so you could get good pictures that actually established a reliable size estimate.

DOC---Done and DONE. Even with BAD pics the snake is still the biggest one ever with its picture taken....You should have written not yet DISPROVEN!

"Well, she is a big 4' female and I'm treating her but she is otherwise happy and healthy!"
-- this is the current injured one. Still no pics that would accurately establish the truth (or lack thereof) of your claim about her size.

DOC--Not sure why you like being wrong so much. Are you very short?? What are you going to do with your nights when I get a pic of her??? Backyardchickens.com is looking for you!!

Keep on trying, Jeff. You'll prove something eventually, if you just keep working at it.
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DOC--Keep trolling!

>>"I have had bigger milks than any found in the country. "
>>-- already disproven. You yourself admit that your pics show snakes SMALLER than the record.
>>
>>DOC-My snakes come from the SAME locale!!

So what, Jeff? They aren't the same snakes. You claimed that YOU "have had bigger milks than any in the country". Your pics say otherwise.

>>DOC-A landfill is not a transfer station.

So what, Jeff? You claimed there is no landfill. There IS a landfill. End of story.

>>DOC-there may be some cats now, dont know any dog that would prey on a milksnake. Rodents are NOT predators!! Geez!

If you don't know any dog that would prey on a milksnake, then you don't know any dogs. Heck, I found 1/2 a snake (not a milk, in this case) on my own property just last week.

As for rodents -- try that "not a predator" line on all the captive snakes that get killed by live "food" every year....

>>"I have pics of bigger ones than anyone else"
>>-- not yet proven. This is the one that we were trying to help you with, so you could get good pictures that actually established a reliable size estimate.
>>
>>DOC---Done and DONE. Even with BAD pics the snake is still the biggest one ever with its picture taken....You should have written not yet DISPROVEN!

Noooooo, Jeff. That's what we keep trying to help you with, and what you keep refusing to see. There is no way to know HOW long your snake was, because your photography was so lousy. OTOH, we do have quite a good photo of a 40" syspila. That syspila appears to be the current kingsnake.com record holder.

>>"Well, she is a big 4' female and I'm treating her but she is otherwise happy and healthy!"
>>-- this is the current injured one. Still no pics that would accurately establish the truth (or lack thereof) of your claim about her size.
>>
>>DOC--Not sure why you like being wrong so much.

Let's see the pics, Jeff. You can prove something eventually, if you just keep trying!
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If I may clarify, so that everyone else no longer needs to deal with the spat.

Jeff is stating that the LINE OF SNAKES not a PARTICULAR snake is from the largest GROUPING of Milks.

Enough already. This is not a lets pick on each other forum however a milksnake discussion forum. Nitpicking each and every single post by each other is counter productive.

This was a thread on how to photograph your snakes for size. Please if you have photos feel free to post them. Otherwise enough of the fighting.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>
>>This was a thread on how to photograph your snakes for size. Please if you have photos feel free to post them.

That's a great idea. It could be very educational to see what methods different people use to accurately demonstrate size in their snakes.

For example -- does anyone here actually use those clear snake tubes to photograph their animals? The one source I could easily find wants **$200** for a set of tubes. That seems over the top to me. Are there any more reasonable sources?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>
>>>>This was a thread on how to photograph your snakes for size. Please if you have photos feel free to post them.
>>
>>That's a great idea. It could be very educational to see what methods different people use to accurately demonstrate size in their snakes.
>>
>>For example -- does anyone here actually use those clear snake tubes to photograph their animals? The one source I could easily find wants **$200** for a set of tubes. That seems over the top to me. Are there any more reasonable sources?
>>-----
Yeah home depot.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>Yeah home depot.

Do they have good strong CLEAR tubes? I know about PVC, but I'm not familiar with clear pipes.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Link below is for a snake measuring utility.

I just put my female black milk on the tiled portion of the kitchen floor, take a picture, load it onto the computer... and you'll figure out the rest. Simple, free and having tried it with other objects besides the tiles to scale from it's apparently accurate, always comes up within a quarter inch no matter the object used.

She's 5 years old and a little better than 5'10" at the moment.

Gerry
Link

Dang mine is the same age and just a tad under five feet. I need to give her more food me thinks!
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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Funny part is it was considered a runt by my son... he gave it to me as a present... one of "babies" from the first clutch he produced. Think she's turned out all right for a runt

Gerry

I hate you

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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

so do I

HA!!!

I feel you

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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

If you KNEW anything about milks you would know males get bigger than females so having a female even NEAR 48" is a ...MONSTER! Now the biggest milk found in the US known to science is in the MCZ, its 54" not 52", it also was found in the same place. Can you concede that? Its dead too, it was measured prior to death. No stretchy stretchy. Now anyone can say anything online, you like to run your mouth. But I take a pic and make a claim and stand behind it. In order for it NOT to be the biggest milk even taken pics of or posted online there has to be a bigger one. Thats how this works. I dont have to find a bigger one, someone with a bigger one will step forward. Until that happens, shaddupayourface.

SUPER nice Aberrant Hondo!!! I have many of these, Hypo's-Amel's-Hybino's, but not one with so much black, very nice!!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

See!, it wasn't rocket science, was it?..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah man, it was easy.

If I knew this was going to blow up into a shat storm that is now I don't think I'd posted it in the first place.

-Dell

Hey here's a big snake. Black Pine snake. The guy didn't even need to measure to prove it's big.

Handsome snake!

I have a little bit of a soft spot for pines. I used to know one many years ago. Interesting personality, and STROOOOOOOOOONG.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yeah, I saw that GI-FREAKIN-GANTIC Black Pine on the pit forum a while back!.......my GOD that is one MONSTER of a Black pine!!!

Looks like a big male Indigo for chrissakes!..HAHA!

I was blown away at the size of that thing.........and YEAH!,....no tape needed!..LMAO!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I got lucky and was able to get one of that giant black pines sons

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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Awesome!
Those m. lodingi are outstanding looking. You'er a lucky person to have picked those up.

-Dell

That is way cool that you scored a son of that beast!!

I don't think he will end up being a runt either..HAHAA!

congrats!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thank Doug!!! Yeah I was soooo stoked when I nabbed him!! And yes I think you are right

I feed him twice a week right now so he is hopefully on his way to monsterhood!!!
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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

My man Jeff wrote:
My pics of them from that island are bigger than any milks from anywhere else in the country.

Sorry Jeff, that was kind of the point of my post was to give you an idea of how to take a better photograph of them so I/we could see the true size of your mmmonster milks. I don't think anyone is truly convinced their 4 feet or even over 4 feet.
I don't really care if they are 4 feet or more, it's just that I've been listening to you brag & crow on about these t. triangulum for 7 or 8 years now and when you do produce a photograph it's of such poor quality I can't even tell it's a snake. THEN I have to listen to how you've produced a photo of your monster milk and that NOW you challenge any one to come up w/ a bigger North American milk. And the point seems to be missed by you, even after everyone tells you, that the photo was of such poor quality that we couldn't tell how big the snake is or was in this case.

I for one believe what you say, that you have some big NA milks in your collection. Why would you make that up?
I'll end on this. I'd like to go this winter knowing you have the largest NA milks in your collection just put up a decent photo to scale, and until then, shut the phawk up about it. Por fevor!

-Dell

Dell, not all of these are 4', it takes a LONG time to grow them that big. In fact a 4'er is pretty rare stuff, and thats why I contend to others, post your biggest. Now as bad as I am now with pics I was even worse in the past. And I have had 3-4 4'ers in my whole life. They are almost always WC, most of the CB milks are used as breeders as you know so they tend not to max out for size. Of that 3-4 1 was CB, and I have several pics of her and have told you of her fate. Then there are the WC males that dont eat, I release them after of month of frustration. Now I cant resurrect a dead snake and I cant recapture a snake I let go last year either. I have the pics I have taken and my word. Now if you want to call me a liar go ahead, just have PROOF. HARD PROOF. Not "internet" PROOF. You know full well that I have to fend off the insects that pick at me here. Anyone can do the same research I have to find the info. The fact that my locale is the exact same as whats on the label on the preserved specimen in a museum SHOULD hold some water with anyone. Cant make that up. So even if you dont believe ME you can believe THAT right? 1 and 1 is 2 most anywhere DOC isnt around, and the snake in this pic I gave to Carl and he would vouch not only for its size but its different scalation if he were online but it was only a 1 MP camera and a 10 yr old pic--he covers the entire bottom of a 55 gallon trash can. But like I have said, if you dont believe me prove me wrong!

This is a pretty decent pic...I'm just having a hard time finding the dimensions of the plastic garbage can.

All the 55 gallon plastic garbage cans I see on-line are cylindrical.

If you still have this plastic garbage can, can you give me the part number on it?

I can easily figure out the length of the snake after given that information.

Do you have this information Jeff?

Thanks,
Rusty

>>This is a pretty decent pic...I'm just having a hard time finding the dimensions of the plastic garbage can.

I was having the same problem last night! I do have a couple of rectangular garbage cans outside that I **think** are 55 gallon. However, we've been having that big line of storms coming over today -- the ones they keep talking about on TV -- so I haven't gone out to measure them. If it turns out that they are 55 galls, I'll eventually post the measurements here.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Well, my big rectangular trash can is a different shape than Jeff's -- so mine isn't going to work. In fact, the can in Jeff's pic is more like the shape of my 15 and 20-30 gallon cans....so I wonder if it's really a 55 in the first place?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That was from 7-8 years ago, maybe longer. I rented a big house on the island, they were the biggest and most $$ trashcans I ever saw. We put what we caught for a week in there and each chose a pr to keep releasing the rest. Carl got the big green male, I took the smaller anery one. It never ate for him but had prismic scales like that of a dragonfly....strangest snake I have ever seen never mind caught. It had spots that looked like piebald that you can see as VERY light reflective in the pic. I'd have guessed the dimensions to be like 12 x 16, he was one of the biggest I have found. Guessed on exact size of can, but it was a HUGE trash can, bent over at the waist I couldnt reach the bottom...and that was before the belly...

YES EXACTLY!!!

I have yet to see ANY proof or even near proof of Jeff's claims. He often will say that people need to read books on Milksnakes, but what would HIS book say? "As you can see by the ashtray on the coffee table, this snake is the largest EVER!"

It would be SO EASY to stop the reasonable herpers from arguing with Jeff, if only he would act less antagonistic in his posts and replies, and buy a damn tape measure.

The burden of proof is on Jeff, not on the rest of us...
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan