Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Did I teach you a new word today?

If the prb no longer officially exists as a valid subspecies -- or even if it still does -- how much would folks "in the rainbow field" hate me if I bred a Peruvian with a Brazilian? Would anyone even notice, as long as I didn't try to sell the offspring as Peruvian?

No, I have no immediate intentions. I'm just speculating about future possibilities....
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Well all i can say is the only thing you would be doing is possibly "polluting pure breds" as some BCI guys would say when questioned about hybrids. Point is, if you sell one of those snakes that ever comes from the breeding its out to the public and can easily be mistaken as something its not now. In my eyes if you put a peruvian in front of someone who is only breifly educated on rainbow boa's 9 out of 10 times they will just say that its a BRB. So lets say someone like that gets ahold of your peru/braz hybrid well then your snake will forever be known as a BRB and if it ends up being bred thats just a whole line of snakes claimed to be BRB's that ar not actually BRB's and have the possibility of "polluting" other breeders "pure" lines.

Trust me I have thought of the cool possibilities of hybrids and some would really be cool, but why breed two snakes that are so much alike that could cause so much future confusion? You wouldnt be gaining anything from it. I understand the BPxBurm because you get a HUGE bp looking snake (and some people want that), and i understand RTBxCONDA but PRBxBRB theres no benefiting anyone except for yourself $ wise. Not that that its wrong to make money but look what you can be doing for the future of breeding and the hobby.
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//LJ//

1.0.0 BRB '09
0.1.0 BCI '10
1.0.0 English Bred Chocolate Lab

>>Well all i can say is the only thing you would be doing is possibly "polluting pure breds" as some BCI guys would say when questioned about hybrids. Point is, if you sell one of those snakes that ever comes from the breeding its out to the public and can easily be mistaken as something its not now. In my eyes if you put a peruvian in front of someone who is only breifly educated on rainbow boa's 9 out of 10 times they will just say that its a BRB. So lets say someone like that gets ahold of your peru/braz hybrid

But IS it even a hybrid, especially given that the Peruvian subspecies is no longer considered valid?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL, exactly what I was thinking when I opened up your post.

It's widely accepted that there is "PRB" blood mixed in the "BRB" lines. Not known how much/little.

The ethics are hard though, on one hand I would not knowingly acquire a mixed subspecies animal. But if there were no subspecies any more then would that be OK? Even if the subspecies line were erased, I would think there would still be a demand for them.

Tough call but in the end I'd not do that pairing.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I'm probably in the minority, but even when they were separate subspecies, I don't see "crossing" as an ethical issue as much as a personal preference. Taxonomy is a human construct, and like evolution itself, it's constantly changing and always in dispute. Heck, can anyone even define what a species, much less a sub-species, is?? As long as one represents his/her animal honestly and takes good care of it, it's none of my business what you or anyone else does. The whole "polluting the gene pool" is a slipper slope. Where do you draw the line? Between species? Between sub-species? Between large locales? Between canyon locales (like rosy boas?) And when it comes down to it, what does it really matter if a rainbow boa down the line is "88% BRB" and "12% PRB", especially now that they are the same subspecies? Heck, wild caught ones could be "intergrades." Part of the definition of subspecies is that they can "interbreed" with other subspecies, and in many cases their ranges overlap. There is no distinct line separating a lot of subspecies, it's a continuum.

Just my 2 cents.

....I have been a snake guy for a very long time. During that time I have seen many different species redesignated. There are several snakes that have had three different scientific names in recent decades. Imagine that, the snakes have been around for eons and man has been so silly and vane that he has hung different labels on them in just a few short decades. I have even seen some snakes change scientific names and then change back. Some taxonomists believe in splitting the animals into as many different subspecies as possible and some others believe in lumping them together in as few species as possible. Some just want to redesignate the animals so they can get their papers published. Does anyone here remember all the arguement about the reorganization of the Carpet and Green Tree Pythons? Not sure if any of this petty crap has anything to do with the 2008 paper on the Rainbow Boas. I have not read the paper. I have heard that it does not address the issue of the snakes we call Guyana Rainbow Boas. Those snakes are so very different that they cannot possibly be considered to be the same species as any of the animals on the new list. To me that would indicate more than anything that the work done in redesignating the Rainbow Boas is not complete. In the meantime, I will attempt to keep my bloodlines pure waiting on the very real possibility that some time in the future the gaigei subspecies will be recognized again.
....More specifically addressing the original question. It seems to me that if we crossbreed our animals we can honestly represent them to anyone we sell them to but the next time they change hands they may not be honestly represented.

>>....More specifically addressing the original question. It seems to me that if we crossbreed our animals we can honestly represent them to anyone we sell them to but the next time they change hands they may not be honestly represented.

Yup, I see that as a big problem.

Let me make my own leanings a little more clear: I might consider selling a prb x brb , but I would never sell such a cross as a Peruvian. As Dave already noted, the brb population is already mixed with prb genetics -- so I'm not sure there's much point in worrying about them.
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

As I mentioned before there is no way of knowing how much (or in reality, how little, maybe even none at all) PRB blood there is in any specific BRB line.

Like others have stated, you doing a "cross" and selling the babies as what they are is not the real problem, it's future gens where the true history can (and likely) will be lost.

For example I would expect a variety of babies in that litter. Some displaying more of the PRB traits including scale count and others more along the line of a BRB. Once sold, they could change hands again, even several times to the point nobody knows where it originally came from and humans being anal would look at it and decide it was either PRB or BRB based on visual cues.

Same thing with any subsequent offspring. even 50/50 offspring bred together would not necessarily produce 50/50 offspring. Statistical probability would predict a bell curve distribution with one end picking up more of the original BRB genes and the other end getting more of the PRB genes. Think about it this way, flip a coin ten times and record the results. Often it will be 50/50 heads/tails but sometimes will be 60/40 or 70/30, even 80/20 or 90/10 and not very often but rarely it will be all ten heads or tails.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Yupyupyup. But isn't that what we ALREADY see with brb litters?

>>For example I would expect a variety of babies in that litter. Some displaying more of the PRB traits including scale count and others more along the line of a BRB. Once sold, they could change hands again, even several times to the point nobody knows where it originally came from and humans being anal would look at it and decide it was either PRB or BRB based on visual cues.
>>
>>Same thing with any subsequent offspring. even 50/50 offspring bred together would not necessarily produce 50/50 offspring. Statistical probability would predict a bell curve distribution with one end picking up more of the original BRB genes and the other end getting more of the PRB genes. Think about it this way, flip a coin ten times and record the results. Often it will be 50/50 heads/tails but sometimes will be 60/40 or 70/30, even 80/20 or 90/10 and not very often but rarely it will be all ten heads or tails.
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>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
>>42.61 BRB
>>27.40 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yes but with the assumption it's BRB with maybe some PRB mixed in. not a known 50/50 mix...
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

The problem with making this an ethical or "contamination" issue is that it is a result of circular reasoning. Not all "humans are anal" about taxonomy, and even taxonomists themselves don't agree. Just look at E. cenchria, now we are being told the Peruvian subspecies doesn't exist anymore. So is it "unethical" now to breed two snakes that are now taxonomically identical? Terms and phrases like "contamination", "polluting the gene pool", "purity" are thrown around constantly, but what do these terms really mean? They have to be defined to have a reasonable discussion.

Every individual snake is genetically different to some extent. So is it unethical to breed a yellow "brb" with thick head stripes to an orange "brb" with narrower heads stripes? Or is it just scale count that matters?

As far as the "sellers may be dishonest/ignorant down the line" argument, I see that as a non-issue. If I buy a snake from a seller, how can I be sure his animal is "pure" (whatever that means.) I trust you 100%, Cliff, but if I get a baby from you, how do I know the seller you got it's father or mother from didn't produce that snake from a "PRB" to a "BRB" cross to get a more brightly colored baby? How do I know original wild-caught great grandfather was not a "natural intergrade?"

My opinion is that you can't digitize evolution because by definition it is analog. And that's precisely the beauty of evolution. Compartmentalizing it with arbitrary classifications might be important to a lot of people, but I think it actually takes away from what evolution is really about.

>>I respect the fact you are considerate enough to ask for public comment on an unusual and potentially divisive issue.
>>
>>However:
>>
>>> the brb population is already mixed with prb genetics -- so
>>> I'm not sure there's much point in worrying about them
>>
>>> Yupyupyup. But isn't that what we ALREADY see with brb litters?
>>
>>I find the above justifications a bit troubling. Just because something unfortunate is already happening is no reason to actively contribute to it. Rather, if there is already "contamination" in the gene pool, shouldn't every responsible owner try and work to minimize the problem to the best of his or her ability? It's a bit like tossing trash on the ground because there's already litter there.

BUT -- big but -- there's no way to clean up that "contaminated" gene pool. There is no DNA test that will tell you which animals are pure Brazilian and which aren't. I'm not even absolutely convinced that it's a "problem" that needs to be "minimized" in the first place. The Brazilian rainbow market isn't like some sections of the milk snake market, in which locality snake lines are carefully preserved from one mile marker to another. It's a bit more like the Honduran milk market, where most people realize that "Hondurans" are actually already a mix of several subspecies with no way for them to be "purified".

Unless you know the specific patch of ground from which your Brazilians were collected, you don't know whether your own animals are "pure" or not. And you never will know. So why is it a problem?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

My opinion on the subject of mixed bloodlines. There have been very small numbers of Rainbow Boas exported out of Peru. Most of those snakes have been Brazilian Rainbow Boas exported from the Iquitos area. They have scale counts like the Brazilian Rainbow Boas from Brazil and Surinam. When those snakes are bred to Brazilian Rainbow Boas in captivity they do no real harm to the purity of our captive Brazilian Rainbow lines. We have practically no locality data for any of our BRBs anyway and their range is very large. However, some of those Brazilian Rainbow Boas exported from Iquitos Peru have been represented here as Peruvian Rainbow Boas and so get bred to the very few real Peruvians in the US so that US lines of "Peruvian" Rainbow boas are likely to be impure.

If the scientific community has re-defined the subspecies list and there is no longer PRBs and was combined into BRBs then technically there is no issue of cross breeding at this time.

Keep in mind, that Subspecies are often initially cauterized when members of one subspecies differ morphologically from other subspecies of the species. Morphology includes aspects of the outward appearance (shape, structure, color, pattern) as well as the form and structure of the internal parts like bones and organs. Once further research is conducted involving other methods and criteria, like DNA and others, then the adding and deleting of subspecies is updated.

Does anyone actually have or know where to find the last official change that was adopted?
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OGFSnakes

Carlos Gomez posted this citation a little bit down the page:

Passos, Paulo and Ronaldo Fernandes 2008. Revision of the Epicrates cenchria Complex (Serpentes: Boidae). Herpetological Monographs 22 (1): 1-30
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's the abstract for that paper:

Abstract

The Epicrates cenchria complex is endemic to the Neotropical region, occurring in mainland portions of Central and South America. The taxonomic status of the nine currently recognized subspecies (E. c. alvarezi, E. c. assisi, E. c. barbouri, E. c. cenchria, E. c. crassus, E. c. gaigei, E. c. hygrophilus, E. c. maurus, and E. c. polylepis), were evaluated based on external morphology, osteology, and hemipenis characters. Results obtained through quantitative and qualitative analyses support the recognition of E. alvarezi, E. assisi, E. cenchria, E. crassus, and E. maurus as distinct species based on statistically robust delimitation of species boundaries.

The full text can be purchased here:

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1655/06-003.1
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>I think Jeff -- who is far more of an expert on the differences between BRBs and PRBs than any of us -- has already covered the classification side pretty well. He feels they are separate, breeds his separately, plans to keep them that way

I don't think that's exactly what he said.

We know that there is a group of "pure" Peruvians in herpetoculture. I agree that we should only sell these pure Peruvians as Peruvians, and should not sell prb/brb mixes as Peruvians.

Then there's a much larger group of "Brazilian" rainbows. This is where the mixing is. These animals are already mixed, and there is no way for us to tell which ones are pure or not. Do you yourself have collection data on your own animals?? If not, then you are probably selling mixed animals without even knowing it.

>>And a lot of justification is based on the fact contamination “might” already have occurred:
>>> you don't know whether your own animals are "pure" or not. And you never will know.
>>> So why is it a problem?
>>That’s a pretty weak rationale, no matter how you slice it. Just because someone else didn’t care doesn’t allow us not to.

It's not a "rationale" -- it's a reality check. Do you have collection data on your own animals?? If not, then you are probably selling mixed animals without even knowing it. Why, then, should you look down on people who simply **acknowledge** the mixed blood in their animals?
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1.2 Peruvian rainbow boas (Amaru, Asiru, Kulipsa)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
1.3.1 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Chakar, Hari, Saksak)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
0.0.1 Mexican black kingsnake (Mora)
2.4.4 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

....Mixing the races is a sin!!! Check your Bible.......Apparently we do not have any religious fundamentalists here on the forum or we would have had a post about the SIN of mixing races. Any of you godless heathens want to talk about evolution?
....I have opinions about lots of things but I keep in mind that they are just opinions and as you know opinions are like......

>>Quote:
>>
>>>> He feels they are separate, breeds his separately, plans to keep them that way
>>> I don't think that's exactly what he said.
>>Quoting: “In the meantime, I will attempt to keep my bloodlines pure waiting on the very real possibility that some time in the future the gaigei subspecies will be recognized again…”

Right -- BUT -- if I'm not terribly mistaken (which I could be), Jeff is referring to keeping the PERUVIANS pure. Now, I AGREE with keeping Peruvians pure, and not selling mixes as Peruvians.

>>> These animals are already mixed
>>This is an assumption on your part.

Not really. As Jeff has mentioned several times, Peruvians and Brazilians are crossed in the market.

>>For all you know, any mixing, if it has occurred at all, may well be a tiny fraction of the market.

You're absolutely right about this part. I have no idea how much crossing has gone on -- and I dare say you don't know either.

>>Yet this is justification to proceed at will with more, while knowing full well -- as several commenters have advanced and you did not counter -- that full disclosure would not exist to document this?

I don't understand your question here.

>>Furthermore, your logic is inconsistent: you are taking license on the Brazilian side because you “know” diluting has occurred, but you can’t prove for certain that it has never occurred on the Peruvian side. Yet that ssp. is protected?

It's not actually inconsistent. Evidently -- from what I've seen Jeff write -- you can tell with a reasonable degree of certainty, through scale counts, which animals are pure Peruvian. But you can't tell the Peruvian/Brazilian mixes apart from pure Brazilians in any dependable way, that I know of. If Jeff does know of some way to do this, please let us know!

Also, Peruvians have a very limited range -- while Brazilians have a very broad range. This means that the Peruvian "type" may be in more danger -- from habitat destruction, overcollection, whatever you can think of -- than the Brazilian "type" is. And if it's in more danger, IMHO it's more important to treat it more carefully.

>>> It's not a "rationale" -- it's a reality check.
>>Your logic is not “reality.” It’s conjecture.

Yup, some of it certainly is. So is yours.

I have a single answer for all your questions: I dunno!

After reading all of this (and I must say, it is very interesting and informative reading) I have found myself debating whether or not there are significant differences in the two subspecies. My question for everyone is this....

Beyond the difference in scale counts, what traits really make a Brazilian a Brazilian and a Peruvian a Peruvian??? I know that locality specific data might play into this but I also know that most everyone on this forum deals in CB almost exclusively.

I have also heard many refer to Peruvians as having bolder head markings and overall bolder black highlights and more of a red background color. On the other hand though, BRBs show an amazing variation in color. In the one litter I produced this year of 25 babies their colors and patterns have ranged from high orange to deep red to even more of a drab brown. This leads me to believe that if based soley off of looks and color one might easily confuse a BRB for a PRB and vice versa. This is why I love BRBs, they have amazing color variations naturally.

So, what makes a Peruvian a Peruvian? Especially after many generations of captive breeding. I'm starting to feel like this is very similar to many of the common boa guys locality debates. And my favorite response I ever read to those questions/debates are that they are nice "common pet boa constrictors" and if one were to say anything more specific (i.e. a colombian boa etc) they would be simply guessing.

Sorry to ramble, I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts!
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

Ike,
....There is enormous varation in color and pattern in both snakes. Many but not all of our captive Peruvians have thicker and darker markings than Brazilians. Many but not all adult Peruvians have deep dark intense red color. There are newly imported Brazilians from the northeastern part of their range that "look" like my Peruvians. Scale counts are IMO the only real externally visible difference. Perhaps the authors of the paper are right in dividing Rainbows up into five seperate species but perhaps xerophilus and hygrophylous and gaigei and barbouri do deserve continued subspecific status. This still leaves the unanswered question about Guyana Rainbows. They are too different to fit into any of their five species.
Jeff

>>After reading all of this (and I must say, it is very interesting and informative reading) I have found myself debating whether or not there are significant differences in the two subspecies. My question for everyone is this....
>>
>>Beyond the difference in scale counts, what traits really make a Brazilian a Brazilian and a Peruvian a Peruvian??? I know that locality specific data might play into this but I also know that most everyone on this forum deals in CB almost exclusively.
>>
>>I have also heard many refer to Peruvians as having bolder head markings and overall bolder black highlights and more of a red background color. On the other hand though, BRBs show an amazing variation in color. In the one litter I produced this year of 25 babies their colors and patterns have ranged from high orange to deep red to even more of a drab brown. This leads me to believe that if based soley off of looks and color one might easily confuse a BRB for a PRB and vice versa. This is why I love BRBs, they have amazing color variations naturally.
>>
>>So, what makes a Peruvian a Peruvian? Especially after many generations of captive breeding. I'm starting to feel like this is very similar to many of the common boa guys locality debates. And my favorite response I ever read to those questions/debates are that they are nice "common pet boa constrictors" and if one were to say anything more specific (i.e. a colombian boa etc) they would be simply guessing.
>>
>>Sorry to ramble, I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts!
>>-----
>>Ike Lightner
>>
>>2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

Hey thanks for the response Jeff, I think we are going to have to start refering to you as the "rainbow guru" on here from now on! I love hearing about all of the different subspecies and detailed info you have on the different rainbows etc.!!! So I think I know that Peruvians have more scales at mid-body, is this correct? If so, how many more scales do they have than Brazilians do at mid-body?

Also, do you have any theories as to why they would have evolved to have bigger or smaller scales either way?

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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

Ike,
...Peruvians have fewer and larger scales than Brazilians. Typically Brazilians have 45 or more scale rows at midbody and Peruvians 43 or less. On large Peruvians the bigger scales are noticeable. I have no idea why they evolved to have fewer and larger scales. Possibly a positive adaptation to something different in their environment or maybe just an anomoly.

Cliff,
...Xerophilus is or should I say was the Rio Branco Rainbow Boa. The Central Highlands Rainbow was polylepsys. Left polylepsys off my list solely by accident. Sorry, but I seem to also misspell em about as often as I get them right.
Jeff

>>No, my point is ethical, Amazondoc.
>>
>>You acknowledge above that Peruvians should be preserved because they might be a separate ssp.

No. I acknowledge that they probably should be preserved because they are identifiably different from the general pool of rainbows in the market, and because that identifiably different subset of rainbows is probably in more danger than the general pool of rainbows in the wild.

>>In the very next breath, you turn 180 degrees and refuse to give Brazilians -- an *acknowledged* separate ssp -- the same respect and protection.

No. You continue to misread what I have said.

If we had known Brazilians in the market that we could reliably define as pure Brazilian -- for example, if we had locality collection data on a group of Brazilians in the market -- then I would agree that it would be a good thing to keep them apart from the general pool of "Brazilians" in the market. But we do NOT have such a thing. As I mentioned before, it's kind of like the pool of "Honduran" milks in the market. They are already mixed, there's no way to separate them out, and there's not much point in trying to separate them.

>>You do this based on that fact that cross-breeding has “probably” already occurred...

It HAS already occurred. Jeff, amongst others, tells us so -- and I, for one, take Jeff's word for it.

>>...and very possibly *not* in the animals you plan to breed.

One more time -- I have no "plan" to mix Peruvians and Brazilians. I am asking questions and testing responses in order to figure out whether there is a significant benefit in keeping them separate. At this point I have no "plan" at all, and certainly no NEED to cross anything.

Now -- IF somebody could establish a way to distinguish pure Brazilians from Brazilian/Peruvian mixes in the market, then I would conclude that keeping Peruvian blood out of that pure Brazilian gene pool would be a good thing to do.

And IF somebody could establish that Brazilian/Peruvian/other subspecies mixing events have been extremely rare and have not significantly polluted the pure Brazilian gene pool in the market already, then I also would conclude that keeping Peruvian blood out of the Brazilian gene pool would be a good thing to do.

I don't think we are likely to do either one...but you never know!

As far as I know xerophilus was still a recognized subspecies up until the Passos and Fenandez paper was published in 2008. I have seen several published lists of subspecies with one or more of them missing. I think that in most cases it was just an accidental oversight.

So after reading the paper, I fully expect to be alive and well when someone contradicts their findings. This appears to occur regularly.
The ITIS still lists 9 subspecies and would go with that, since I live in the US. I have notice in a few sites, like ITIS, that other classification results have been adopted.
So, for crossbreeding, i guess that means use your own beliefs and judgement because you can probably find a paper to justify it.
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OGFSnakes