Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is from the most recent Herp Digest?:
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Reserve Your Autographed Copy Of The Book The People Are Already Talking About - Even Though It Won’t Be Out Until January 3rd. It’s Called “Stolen Wolrld: A Tale of Reptiles, Smugglers and Skulduggery” by Jennuie Erin Smith, And the Following Review From Publisher’s Weekly Tells Us Why:

“In this very disturbing and very entertaining chronicle of reptile smugglers, the collectors and zoo keepers who trade with them, and the federal agents who try to catch them, the humans are as devious, dangerous, and creepily charming as the cold-blooded creatures they lust after. Science reporter Smith bases her book on extensive original interviews with two smugglers: Henry Molt Jr. is a reptile dealer who, in the 1960s, unable to get a job with a zoo, began a lifelong career of reptile collecting involving restless international travel, partner-stiffing, and jail time, with an undaunted enthusiasm that's survived into his 60s: "The reptile business ‘is a disease,' he said, and you can't retire from a disease." Equally outrageous is the volatile, knife-wielding Tommy Crutchfield, who expanded his childhood alligator-and-snake business into a million-dollar empire of reptile hunting and dealing. Even the curators of the Bronx and San Diego zoos let their obsession with th!
e animals lure them into deals in order to obtain illegally imported rare breeds. Smith's affection for these unsavory people gives the book an intriguing moral ambiguity (which might make some environmentalists cringe), but the subculture's brazen shenanigans make for a convoluted, fascinating tale. (Jan.)”

To Reserve Your Autographed Copy Send $25.00 Plus $6.00.See Below on How.
_______________________________________________________________________

Gee Tom all this time I thought you were a really nice guy. Someone needs to take this chick to a biker bar here in fl. so she can learn the real definition of "knife wielding".

herpetologist anonymous?

those would be some FUN meetings!
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hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!

The ex-police officer and director of Outreach for Animals in Ohio that is featured in the film promoting the banning of exotic pet ownership name is Tim Harrison. His brother, Jim Harrison, owns and operates the Kentucky Reptile Zoo. I've met Jim and I know he has bought and sold animals right along with the rest of us. Even moreso, as he is (or at least has been) involved in the "HOT" or venomous trade. I wonder how family reunions work in that household...or if he is somehow onboard with his brother's craziness, expecting to be exempt from any legislation because of his "business"...

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

does he know that? lol

Yes I can be unsavory to the right person...thanks...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I've met Jim and I know he has bought and sold animals right along with the rest of us. Even moreso, as he is (or at least has been) involved in the "HOT" or venomous trade. I wonder how family reunions work in that household...or if he is somehow onboard with his brother's craziness, expecting to be exempt from any legislation because of his "business"..."

I am offended by this statement! I've known Jim for many years and I know he does not "sell" hots. He also does not agree with his brother and this conflict is very rough on him.

Jim has always supported RESPONSIBLE HOT KEEPERS"!

He is at the front of the line to lend a hand or his knowledge when it comes to the welfare of the animals and their responsible and legal owners.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Yet I just saw him on 2 episodes of fatal Attractions helping to further Animal Planets agenda. Did he not know what he was getting in to when he agreed to interview for the show?
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www.jasonrbartolettreptiles.webs.com

They edited his segment to conform to their agenda.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Well he should have known better. Most people do these shows for the fame and notoriety. They don't think about the damage it may cause the herp industry or they don't care. Many "herpers" have BIG egos and they think that what they do is okay. For instance, a guy from Austin bought wild caught snakes from a commercial collector and then went before the TPWD Commission and bad mouthed commercial collectors. This is rampant in the herp industry. This being, hypocrisy.

We need to band together and admit what we do and why we do it. Not sell out different aspects of the industry for a perceived personal gain. Those that are against us want to pull us a part. Don't be a sell out. Be smart!

Welkerii

"Many "herpers" have BIG egos and they think that what they do is okay. For instance, a guy from Austin bought wild caught snakes from a commercial collector and then went before the TPWD Commission and bad mouthed commercial collectors. This is rampant in the herp industry. This being, hypocrisy."

Yes Mike, those would be the narcissists with their "I'm better than you" Prep Mentality, the ones with the "do as I say, not as I do", "my s#!t don't stink, but yours sure does" mentality...those that curry favor with "Authority" seeking validation. Of course, Authority welcomes their support, to sanction and validate Authority's agenda. The pandering and cronyism go hand in hand like two peas in a pod.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've known Jim Harrison since college, and he is about as much of a "sell-out" as are you or I! As Tim says, this disagreement with his brother is hurting him deeply. Jim has done more for private herpetoculture in his life than almost anyone I know, and if AP distorted his views then that is entirely on them.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I never said Jim was a sell out. I said he should have known better and he should of. We all know what Animal Planet's agenda is. And if you don't think ego played a part in him being on this show...well, denial is a river in Egypt.

I wasn't pleased to see George Van Horn and Winston Card on the show either. I haven't talked to Winston in many years so I don't know what his agenda is now. He use to be on our side. George is in the private sector so I assume he supports us but who knows nowadays? Ego, fame and notoriety or agenda?

Either way, we ALL must be VERY careful about what we do, how we do it and more importantly what we support/don't support. Do you care about the herp industry or do you just care about your little sub-group? Many have chosen their little sub-group that's my point. And sometimes that sub-group is one person.

If this USFWS attempted ban has taught us anything, it is that we must band together as ONE. We must admit our activities and money trails. We must proudly and fiercely support our rights. And we must show unity as an INDUSTRY to win. The line between business and hobby is wide and blurred. The line between commercial and recreational is wide and blurred. One thing we defintely don't want to do is sell out important sectors of the herp industry or unknowingly/selfishly aid or support the otherside.

Welkerii

This is Kristen, writing in for Jim. mpollard, we don't know who you are....

1. Why yes, Jim has indeed gotten animals from animal dealers before. However, the amount of animals gotten from dealers is small compared to the amount of animals here that are from other zoos or were bred here. We don't really need dealers, we have an import license, but they are convenient to use if there is something needed for venom production.

2. Tim does know us- hi Tim! He is right that Jim supports RESPONSIBLE keeping of animals, hot or not. This includes keeping antiserum for the snakes you have- the step that many many people do not take. It also includes no free-handling, and not showing off with animals or using them for your own ego.

3. Animal Planet does have an agenda- it is to make money! They are going to use whatever sensational story they think will draw in the most viewers. Do you know how to ensure they don't get such stories? DON'T SELL ANIMALS TO IRRESPONSIBLE OR IGNORANT PEOPLE! Seriously, where do the nuts get their animals? They come from somewhere. If you are not a nut and don't want the 'bad side' to portray you as a nut, don't make animals available to people who shouldn't have them.

4. You mention KRZ not having a statement about the pet trade on our website. That's right, we don't, and why should we? KRZ is not about the pet trade- we are about venom research, conservation, and education. That is what our website is about and that is what it will continue to be about.

5. KRZ is a non-profit- we don't take stances as an organization about the pet trade, other than to suggest to kids that they find out about an animal before they get it as pet. We also don't join politically active groups such as USArk.

6. On the same note, KRZ as an institution does not care about TV, but it does care about generating publicity- that's life these days whether we like it or not. Comments from the general public so far have been positive about the most recent show.

6. And what should we do? Give up? Not talk to the media because they do edit what we say? Maybe we should, but we do keep trying to give out good info. I can think of a lot of TV hosts that give out horrible info, only to have great support from herpers. Whatever, but at least we try.

7. About George... he thought it was just a show about venoms. He did not realize what the show was. He also was trying to give out good info.

8. Someone who posts a lot on these forums has posted on the Fatal Attractions website saying ' call me! I've been bitten 4 times in the face by a western diamondback!' Again, if these types don't have the animals to begin with, the stories don't exist.

9. Lastly, Jim is not his brother's keeper. I know not everyone on these forums is nice, but is it too much to ask to leave family disputes out of it? Probably it is, but Jim's got enough stress about it without all you people making snide remarks. How would you feel if your brother was in such total disagreement with you about something that you've built your life around? Think about it.

I guess that's all for now. *Zips up flame suit*

And what should we do? Give up? Not talk to the media because they do edit what we say? Maybe we should, but we do keep trying to give out good info. I can think of a lot of TV hosts that give out horrible info, only to have great support from herpers. Whatever, but at least we try......................................
......................A good way for all those who end up with these edited videos misrepresenting what you say would be to film the interview yourself as well and post the unedited video on you tube.
This is a time tested way to put an end to the "he said she said" fiasco that seems to come from these videos.
As for the money making aspect of ap you are correct and you are also correct in telling people that if they don't want to see such programing simply stop watching it.
However that argument falls on deaf ears here, not only do advertise these shows for free on here but they tell when the videos are available and how much they cost.
The music industry will almost kill for people like this.

That is a good idea to film it ourselves. I have no idea if they would allow it or not, but it never hurts to ask. I will keep this in mind if we ever do anything else.

Just make them say you have FINAL APPROVAL on content. Editors and producers sign document saying so.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hi Kristen,

Don't worry, I don't think you'll need your flame suit, since your stand is entirely consistent and reasonable. Kentucky reptile Zoo is a public, non-profit institution, and not only should you not be expected to get involved in Reptile Industry issues, it would be inappropriate for you to do so. People on here can reasonably complain if (and only if) they see Jim giving out erroneous information or indulge in blatant self-promotion-but anyone who knows him will tell you that neither is going to happen.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

News flash Brad, we are being critical and have every right to do so any time. Don’t be smug. Check out a little document called the Constitution for validation of my point. Neither you or Jim are above reproach.

Not like you ever need an excuse to insert foot in mouth, Mike, and I never said you had no right to do so-just implied it would be stupid.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

...this thread had gone places I never imagined or intended. I’ve been debating whether or not to try to respond, but in the end, I felt I should.

First of all, Kristen, you are correct. You don’t know me; as far as I know, I have never met you. Jim, on the other hand, I’ve met several times, although I am not particularly surprised that he doesn’t rember me. It’s been years ago, we met, had some nice discusssions/conversations, not that much to remember. I’ve been to KRZ on several occasions. I think the first time was back in the late 80’s maybe. My brother was a teacher at Frenchburg and he told me about a “snake place” in Slade, so once when I was visiting him, I stopped in KRZ.

I think it was in the early 90’s that the company I worked for at the time had a contract to install cable television at Natural Bridge State Park (also in Slade, for those reading along and not familiar with the area). It was a pretty cool project. We had the National Guard bring in a helicopter to set the TV tower on the highest peak in the park. Does that ring a bell? Maybe not, but I thought possibly, since not that many helicopters are flying around Slade, except for the ones looking for pot fields on park property. Because I was in Slade on business anyway, I stopped in KRZ a few times. Again, nothing that memorable, I’m sure I was just another patron.

I think I met Jim on one other occasion in Lexington. It was a chance meeting. I think he was visiting Rob and Amy, and I stopped by (I’m pretty sure he will know who Rob and Amy are). I used to work in Lexington and spent way too much time at Jungle Pets and at Rob and Amy’s house. Again, not a show stopper, we just met, which in my orginal post was all I claimed. Jim and I have met and talked about snake related topics.

Most of your posts are not directed towards me, since I only had two points of discussion, so I will skip to those that apply to me, and let the rest go. Your point #1 validates my statement that Jim is, or has been, involved in the venomous trade. Thank you, validation of the truth is always appreciated.

Your next comments direct towards me are points 4 and 5. These also validate my observation that there is nothing on the KRZ website taking a position on the exotic ban/conflict. After reading your posts, now I reallize that the ommision is by design, and not oversight. I personnally find fault with the logic, but it’s not my business, its Jim’s.

As far as your question in point #9, I would not let my family relationship stop me from doing the right thing if I felt strongly about it. For example, I see on Tim’s website that he has been active in getting ridiculous ordinances past in cities like Dayton and Cleveland, including silly statements like boids greater than 3 feet are dangerous. To answer your question, I’d be at every one of those hearings with the biggest contingent of reputable herpers I could muster, fighting his position with all my might. It’s not that hard to do, love the person, hate the behavior, and fight the behavior. Well, people are different. Maybe Jim’s just not a fighter, or maybe he doesn’t feel that strongly about the issue, or maybe there’s something else. As I stated earlier, I don’t know Jim, I’ve only met him.

So, that’s it I guess. We understand each other. We basically disagree on some key points, and that’s OK. I’m sure we’re all good people; we just have some different opinions.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Hi Mark,
You are probably right about Jim not remembering you- nothing personal I'm sure- but we meet a lot of herpers and while we typically enjoy talking to them we just can't remember everyone.

Regarding Jim and Tim- I'll just say this about your comments: Given unlimited resources and time, we probably would go to legislative meetings in other states. However, taking care of the 1300 animals here takes precedence, and we simply don't have the money, time, or energy to take on every stupid law that gets pushed. We have, however, commented on several laws by letter- particularly one in OH when Tim did make some off the wall comments. Either Jim, myself, or both of us attended all the meetings when KY passed the laws here- and I will tell you there were VERY few other herpers at the meetings, and none other when it was actually passed. Also, I'm not sure if you have attended such meetings yourself, but you can not tell a non-herper that venomous snakes are not dangerous. They are! What we have advocated in the past, and do to this day, is to advocate responsible ownership. KY was not interested in a permit system even though we offered to train their employees for free and to help them out- they were going for a basic ban and that is what they did, though public comment did result in constrictors not being regulated.

The only other thing I will say is that your comment that Jim is not a fighter is about 100% opposite of what he is. I have never seen anyone fight as hard as he does on a daily basis. I'm sorry he doesn't feel the need to constantly fight for people to keep hots-- but in the grand scheme of things its just not that important. Now, trying to find new treatments for disease? That's what we fight for here.

I appreciate your response- especially the fact that you used complete sentences! It seems that is lacking in many forum conversations. I imagine we will still have to agree to disagree, but hey, that's what makes it interesting.

I think it is simply a matter of good business practices for the "pay for view" organizations/businesses to do what they can to eliminate the competition.

Those that offer pretty much the same fare for nothing stand in direct competition and do damage to the rarity and exotic mystique that is a large part of the draw for a paying audience.

Doesn't it seem reasonable, if such animals were commonplace and easily seen for nothing, fewer would want to pay to come see them?

Pretty much a no-brainer. Monopolies always seem to be more profitable. That's why we have "unfair trade practices" laws here in the U.S.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Zoos and academics are usaully exempt from most new regulations anyway whether they are qualified to be or not. I have known some academics who didn't know diddly about keeping herps. Also, KRZ says they don't care about the herp industry and venomous keepers but care about finding cures for diseases. They wouldn't have very many animals to cure diseases if wasn't for the herp industry yet they are not willing to support it?

Not to many academics have come out and supported the industry either. I have sold many animals to academics. I feel used and abused!

There has also been talk from large snake breeders about certifications and creating other self regulations to require "backyard breeders" to meet certain minimium standards to include: proper zoning for manintaining herp collections, insurance, required vet care, etc. The large breeders say that the backyard breeders undercut their prices because they don't have the overhead. In other words now that I built my business from backyard breeding you can't.

All these things are very disturbing. People using the industry and then not suppoting it. And in some cases hurting it or advocating against it. You have sell out hobbyists who lie about their activities and then they go bad mouth certain segments of the herp industry at state regulatory meetings. You have brown nosing hobbyists who support agenda disguised as "conservation" in hopes the regulators won't come for their animals. You have large breeders trying to make even more money by shutting down the smaller breeders.

We need to estblish a national platform that supports and advocates for all asepcts of the herp industry. USARK has been fighting the national stuff but not enough has happened at the state level. Florida and Texas have banned turtle harvest. New Mexico has passed some mis-guided regulations. Georgia (except venomous), Tennessee and New York ban all harvest of herps. California only allows commercialization of three or four species. Captive propagation is conservation and sustainable harvest guides the process. There is no reason that we should allow all these AR regs to pass and stand.

Welkerii

"I never said Jim was a sell out. I said he should have known better and he should of. We all know what Animal Planet's agenda is. And if you don't think ego played a part in him being on this show...well, denial is a river in Egypt. "

Known better than to what? Spread entirely factual information on national television? It's not Jim's job to look out for the interests of the private reptile industry, of which he is not a part. But he IS friendly toward us in general, at the moment. How long will that continue -for him and other friends in professional herpetology/zoological parks/museums-if some of us insist on trashing them whenever they have the temerity to so much as show their faces on programs which might be construed as being critical of some herpers?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

He should have known better then to aid (accidentally or otherwise)the AR agenda for self benefit, notoriety and ego caressing. That’s what. It is quite evident that the Animal Planet is pushing the banning agenda. This show definitely does this. He needs to be more careful.

It is EVERYONE’s job who keeps, collects and breeds herps to fight for the right to do so and against those who want to take that right away. If not, what good are you?

Jim is a part of the herp industry just as all herp keepers and customers are. He has bought wild caught snakes from me and others in the industry. He exhibits and breeds herps, many of which came from the herp industry. The herp industry has provided many animals currently held in zoos.

Trashing them? Nobody trashed him or them. Being critical is not trashing. Calling people out is setting the record straight. And defending the industry is just that. “Construed as being critical of some herpers?” You have got to be kidding? If you really think this you are truly lost.

Welkerii

I agree. There is commerce there with acquiring animals for display.

Most zoos, whether private or public charge for admission. It is a pay for view business.

Whether or not the proprietor chooses to be "profitable" or a non-profit, is simply a matter of choice.

It's simply a "how to handle the books" decision. Volunteers and interns aside, I can guarantee you, the owner and employees (key stakeholders) get a pay check. Never seen one take a vow of poverty yet.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

OK, have to chime in again.

Neither Jim or myself takes a salary from the zoo, though we do get *some* benefit from it- we live on site. Jim and I live off of the following: his pension from the police, and a small amount I make teaching community college. All non-profit tax returns are public record- you can look it up online if you feel you must verify this statement.

Believe me, I could make WAY more money doing almost anything else. I work 7 days a week, typically 10 hours a day. This year has been especially tough and I sometimes question if it is worth it. Jim doesn't need to work at all- he could just live on his pension and forget about the business if he wanted to. He believes venom may help people, that is why he does it.

I've known Jim for 12 years now. I would describe him as confident but not egotistical. In fact, he pushes me to talk to any media people as much as he can. Local news story on snakes? I'm the one who gets filmed. Animal Planet, however, sees him as what is interesting so that tactic doesn't work as well. We've had a Nat. Geo. producer tell us women won't work as hosts for animal shows because a woman handling animals would 'demystify' it too much.

You are free to your opinion, of course. My opinion is that poor keepers and those who sell to them have and will continue to do more damage to the hobby than any TV show ever will. I'm not saying anyone on this thread is such a person- but without those there wouldn't be any show to begin with.

Being a non-profit is not simply how to handle the books.

There are a lot of hoops you have to jump through in order to be a non-profit- and they are not as simple as how you classify expenses or profits. Yes, non-profits make money, but the bulk of the profit goes into the business, not the owner.

Last year or the year before, I can't remember which, the tax returns for non profits changed and you now have to explain any very high paychecks. This was NA for us, but it is in response to some shady dealings that were going on with some non profits out there.

You are confirming what I just said. You are an expense to the Non-profit business. I think I know what it takes to get 501 (3)(c) status.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Are you suggesting we are doing something shady? Because if you are, you had better be prepared to back it up.

Kristen I hear you. I 100% agree that the yahoos who get the negative attention do cause damage and it maybe more damage then respected industry people ending up on an agenda based TV show. I would think that if Jim didn't like the attention he wouldn't do the shows. I never meant for this to explode into a big huge debate. I just think that people need to be careful what they do. If you say his interview was sliced and diced then I believe it. I don't trust these shows and this network. I think we need to stay away from them.

Welkerii

We've had a Nat. Geo. producer tell us women won't work as hosts for animal shows because a woman handling animals would 'demystify' it too much....................
so much for the equality movement, they must be pushing these films in the middle east or something.

You've never seen my paycheck then!!! LOL
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

You manage to subsist from your asset, don't you?
You expense your operating/living expenses from your non-profit, don't you?
I know self-employed people that have for profit enterprises and they write off everything they can to reduce income to nothing, or a loss.
Not much difference.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The only ego I see here is yours, Mike. As illustrated below, Jim doesn't profit from this industry (unlike you and I). I say again, I've known Jim most of my life, and your statements about him are based on ignorance, and are entirely without foundation.

Next time you want to trash someone on a public forum, try getting your facts straight.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

You must not know how to read the English language as I have repeatedly NOT trashed anyone. He may well want to educate but the fact remains he picked a show that portrays all herp keepers and the herp industry indirectly in a negative way. You can ignore that all day ...and night long. I have made no comments at all about anything he said. And if you don't think he likes the "attention" of being an expert on a TV show then I think that is naive.

Welkerii

There are a couple of comments that should be made here,

1) There is an assumption that in giving the interview he was supporting the show, we cannot be sure of this at this time.
2) There is no indication that he was not attempting to provide a counter-point to the program's theme and simply had his interview edited to the point where it supported the show's theme

The problem with refusing to respond to requests for interviews is that you allow any message held in the show to be given without any response from any other position. There are actual studies out there that show that a failure to respond to an accusation actually increases the belief that the accusation is true regardless of the accusation.
Some current examples of this in practice are some of the programming on the 24/7 media channels that do nothing but provide primarily one point of view over and over again (or political attack ads...)

Anytime you give a interview, whether it is to a print media journalist or a TV program, you run the risk of having material edited out of context with the message you chose to give. One of the more recent classic examples of this in the media was what happened to Shirley Sherrod.

I worked at a Zoo for more than 18 years and did my share of interviews and had items taken out of context as well. The longer the interview, the greater the risk that this is what is going to occur.

Ed

Ed,
your experience with interviews parallels mine. Once, I did a short telephone interview for a newspaper in which I stated that snakes did not get as much empathy from people because they were not cute and cuddly like bunnies are. The next day a hate mail was sitting in the inbox- and when I read the article my statement has been turned around to imply that I thought killing bunnies was a good idea!

Your statement about us trying to portray these animals in a better light is correct- that was our intent. I don't like the way they imply that anyone who keeps snakes is a hoarder- but I can't change that, only try to show a 'reasonable' person who works with them.

I suppose whether or not I am reasonable is up for debate, but there it is.

The intent could be "free publicity" to drive people to his "zoo".
So exposure to increase interest, thereby increasing revenue.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Um, yeah? What is wrong with the zoo making money? That is how we feed the animals, and heat them, and buy bedding, etc. This statement shows you do not really understand what a non-profit is- non-profits can make money, its what they do with it that matters.

At the top of this page right now is a banner promoting the Gharial Conservation Alliance. The purpose of this banner is to drive traffic to their website, and hopefully receive donations SO THEY CAN HELP GHARIALS. Not so Rom Whitaker can get rich. We are also attempting to do something that is positive- help people, and by so doing, show them that snakes have value and hopefully encourage them to not want to kill every one they see. Driving visitors to the zoo may increase our profits, but it also increases our impact and allows us to educate more people. Our admission prices this year were $6 for adults and $4 for kids- we keep it as low as we can so people in this economically depressed area can afford to come. We're not getting rich off of it.

Save the gharials!

I didn't see the show because I don't have a television. I just wanted to say that I see nothing intrisicly wrong with giving an interview to a TV show. If you spoke in support of herp keeping and your words were true, that's all anyone can ask of you. You try to get a good message out and if they edit it to make it sound like you said something you didn't then that's on the editors. In the greater context one episode of one show is just a small battle in a much larger war.
My opinion is you've got to try to get your message out and eventually there will be a chance to set the record straight.

One thing to remember is that all these animal shows, no matter how much they try to tear down private herp keeping, still have the net effect of increasing the publics desire to keep herps.
There is a set of reactions that is likely to occur with these shows.
1) Validate the feelings of those who were already against private herp keeping.
2) Upset the feelings of those who were already for private herp keeping.
3) Cause formerly disinterested people to become interested in the issue.

With #3 there are any number of reactions from good to bad but one thing is for sure, some of those people will want to keep herps. Some will want to get involved with "official" organizations but many will find the opportunities limited and turn into private keepers. In fact I think most people will find the logistics involved in becoming "professionals" too prohibitive to persue. So even when these shows try to portray herp keeping in a negative light they have a side effect of increasing the demand for private ownership of herps. That's just something for people to consider.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I'm in total agreement Mike except that someone somewhere is going to do the show. I believe that if we're contacted we should weigh the storyline and perhaps then do it as it's far better for us to than other strange people. They look for the person who will say what they want. Look at the "PYTHON HUNTER SHOW". That show turned out well for us. The key is NOT to say anything that may me misconstrued by the film makers. This is hard to do but not impossible. As the old saying goes "KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER". I have not seen this new film but the trailer depicts the law enforcement officer as this kindly man who's fed up [pardon the pun] with unsavory people endangering the lives of innocent Americans because they have unregulated wildlife. As Jim Harrison's brother he knows this is NOT true. What possess's someone to do that, who know's?....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Personalities aside, Mike has valid points to make. Being a NON-PROFIT does not necessarily elevate anyone to Saint status. HSUS and PETA are both non-profits. This narcissistic Holier-than-thou stuff has got to stop.
The sooner we all wake up and acknowledge that fact, the better for all of us. It's ALL commerce, people.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I'm in total agreement with you...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Personalities aside, Mike has valid points to make. Being a NON-PROFIT does not necessarily elevate anyone to Saint status. HSUS and PETA are both non-profits. This narcissistic Holier-than-thou stuff has got to stop.
>>The sooner we all wake up and acknowledge that fact, the better for all of us. It's ALL commerce, people.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

From what I've seen, non-profits are not only not saintly, but just as, if not more, likely to be corrupt and deceptive than for-profits. I agree, it's all about money, regardless of profit/non-profit status. I really like this website:

http://activistcash.com/

I believe one of the points Mike was trying to make, was to use caution. Someone once said, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>I believe one of the points Mike was trying to make, was to use caution. Someone once said, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
>>jsc

I think we all agree. In general people are trusting. That's just human nature, imo. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it also means that deception and corruption have to be exposed when they are found. The big leftist lie, as I like to call it, is that government and/or non-profit organizations are somehow exempt from greed, crookedness, dishonesty and deception.

The big leftist lie, as I like to call it, is that government and/or non-profit organizations are somehow exempt from greed, crookedness, dishonesty and deception...............Talk to the indians and ask them if the government can be trusted.

Many people think the same about "scientists" and academics. Why would they lie, stretch the truth, skew statistics, push an agenda, and perpetuate the agenda through the peer review process? It happens constantly.

Then these academics get jobs as regulators at state wildlife agencies where they continue the agenda. And then bunny huggers, AR groups, academics and ignorant/butt kissing hobbyists support the agenda. Example: Public comment for the White and Black List in Texas 91% supported and 9% opposed (Wagner 2009 pers. comm.).

Such is the world!

Welkerii

Just in case clarification is needed...I was part of the 9% along with the State Herpetologist at that time. In fact, I don't know anyone that supported the white list/black list.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Do you remember this post:

Bad news and good news...
Texas does not protect Box Turtles. But they now have a Box Turtle Monitoring System in place
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/nature/education/tracker/boxturtles/ due to the efforts of the "Box Turtle Partnership of Texas". The BTPT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BTPT/ goal is "The Box Turtle
Partnership of Texas advocates the preservation of box turtle populations in their native habitats through education, research, and protection from overharvesting." The main goal is to halt commercial collecting.

Tim Cole
(***) **-snake
Conservation through Education

You were one of the main members of the BTPT weren't you? And box turtles are a part of the White and Black List regulation. You succeeded in stopping the captive breeding of native Texas box turtles. The Black List allows the collection of six natives but no captive breeding and no sales. You can breed box turtles in Texas but they must come from a legal out of state source, no natives. Good work and good luck to the natives!

You are member of HCU right? Here are some statements from the former President of HCU on the Houston Repile Boards from Dec 3, 2007:

HCU supports both the white and black lists (the idea). HCU favors black listing Box Turtles. We do not support trade in wild caught Box Turtles.

It seems an entire group of Texas herpers supports the White and Black Lists.

Welkerii

This has been a very good conversation.
Regarding this..."Many people think the same about "scientists" and academics. Why would they lie, stretch the truth, skew statistics, push an agenda, and perpetuate the agenda through the peer review process? It happens constantly."

That is why I posed the question about the Precautionary Tail.
LINK
It has something to you with your statement and I'd like to know what people think/know about it.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I have posted about the flawed precautionary principle before. That link is pretty long. Do you have a nice short summary you could post?

Welkerii

The Abstract is basically that -

Abstract: Sustainable management of dwindling resources is perhaps the biggest challenge facing the human species. Successfully addressing this challenge requires holistic perspective: a nebulous connection across disparate realms of science, economics and sociopolitics. Here, I examine some important historical philosophical ideas in our understanding of science. I relate these ideas to how science is generally perceived today. And I question how our view of science is applied through modern policy incorporating a variant of the ‘precautionary principle’, a notion that essentially attempts to articulate a cautious approach to management in our rapidly changing world. I conclude that deeper, philosophical thought would be much welcome: both for clearer purpose within science itself and in order to move forward more strategically in applied areas, such as sustainable management of our planet.

I'm not sure what the "left" has to do with the Indians. I don't think the Spaniards were that far left when they eliminated any religious opposition with Coronado. But then again, "left" and "liberal" always gets some nice salivation forming.

As Pogo said, "We have met the ememy, and he is us".

Some one else posted about "leftists" having faith in government and believing government can do no wrong.
I responded in a post that people should ask the indians if the government can be trusted. I did not mean to give any type of political affiliation to native americans, but merely pointed to a glaringly obvious and historical example of why our government should not be trusted.
It would of course require a bit of reading comprehension on the part of others to understand that.

>>I'm not sure what the "left" has to do with the Indians. I don't think the Spaniards were that far left when they eliminated any religious opposition with Coronado. But then again, "left" and "liberal" always gets some nice salivation forming.
>>
>> As Pogo said, "We have met the ememy, and he is us".

This response, ironically, is very "leftist":

1) It misrepresents the post being responded to, which simply stated that the Indians shouldn't have trusted the government.

2) Accuses others of anger and irrationality (ie, "salivation forming."

3) Tells us to blame ourselves.

Look, all I want is to be left the hell alone. My wife and I work our a$$es off every day to make life better for ourselves and our kids. I'm not Republican, I'm not Democrat, I'm a member of the "I just want to be left the hell alone" party. But please don't pretend the "left" (or "Progressives" or "modern Liberals", whatever term you want to use) aren't the ones pushing full throttle for more and more government control, regulations and socialist, transfer-of-wealth policies. That's just denying reality.

Given the election results this past Tuesday, I don't think I'm alone. You might be your own worst enemy, but don't project that on me and the tens of millions of others who agree with me. And I know it doesn't seem to matter to a lot of people these days, but there is also a Constitution that is supposed to be adhered to.

Sorry, Charlie.

Winston Card a former Florida Herper that eventually became a ZooKeeper is the host of the show FATAL ATTRACTIONS. He has spoken to me a week or so ago and said that the primary customer base for the show are women and that they're going to change the format somewhat. He asked if I knew what the Herp Community thought of it and I told him especially about Huff and the Monitors [that's the show where nothing is said about the real cause of death but leads the watcher to think his pet Varanids killed and ate him]. That film episode reached an all time low even by FATAL ATTRACTION standards. He said that this season and future episodes will not be as stupid and one sided as the others but we'll see...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I am offended by this statement! I've known Jim for many years and I know he does not "sell" hots."

Sorry that you are offended, but what I said was "he is (or at least has been) involved in the "HOT" or venomous trade." So, unless he's flipping rocks and finding cobras in Eastern Kentucky, he's is or has been involved in the venomous trade (hint: I think he may have bought some). His brother's position is that there should not be a HOT trade (or exotic trade), buying or selling. My point was that Jim is involved in a business that his brother is making damning movies about. It wasn't meant to be a slam on Jim, but just as the title says, an interesting tidbit...two brothers (hopefully) on the opposite sides of an ungly fence.

And, it's not hard for people without the advantage of your close personal relationship with Jim to wonder on which side of the fence he stands. Apparently he was not protrayed well on the AP show (I haven't seen it, just referencing a related post that reports that). And, there is nothing on his Kentucky Reptile Zoo website that I could find stating a position on the ban or the AP programs, support for PIJAC or USARK, or any other reference. Looking at his website, one would never know any type of reptile related conflict exists. I'm not saying Jim is a bad person, but he is another reptile related entrepreneur that is suprisingly silent (other than being misunderstood on AP, apparently).

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

These filmakers can slant anything they want anyway they want. I had NO idea this guy was Jim's brother but he definitely has an ax to grind. In the past I have sold MANY snakes to Jim and believe [if my memory serves me correct] that he either traded or sold me many herps as well. It is unfortunate that everyone who is a hopeful film producer and other folks with boring lives try to piggyback their fame and fortune based on our lives and pursuit of happiness. They pick out the very few incidents that happen [the percentage is very low compared to other domestic animal incidents] and portray this as the normal even acceptable way we conduct ourselves when nothing is further from the truth......I'm sure that Jim had no clue as to how he would be portrayed
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I would like to add that I'm a part of this Industry and proud to be so. If a person is NOT and openly says they have NO involvement or interest in it then they shouldn't use it for their personal needs. Hypocracy rears it's ugly head and it puts the person in a position that can NOT be defended...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

O-MY-GOD, She interviewed me one time for what she said was a Conservation peace about the private sector for the Washington Post. I'd have to say it was a delightfull five hours of "eye candy" gee she seemed nice to me. The first Gulf War broke out and my story was bumped.VM