Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have seen mixed info on the necessity of brumating Beauty Snakes.

I have Blue Beauties, Yunnans, and Cave Rats I am hoping to breed this season.

Last year I tied to breed the Blues without cooling without luck, but I think I made a mistake by housing them together and not separating awhile before I attempted to breed them.

I am in Florida and my in house winter temps are 72-77.

What says the consensus?
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

If I'm naive, forgive me, but it seems to me:

1. Tropical snakes would never need to be brumated. They breed year-round.

2. Florida is a subtropical place, which rarely has temps below 45 at night. Double reason not to brumate tropical snakes.

I'm thinking that you are fine to keep them active year-round, and that breeding should not be too tricky if you use common sense basics.

Be careful w/an absolute statement such as the one you made in your post.."never" is a very strong word. "Tropical" does not equate to static temps. World-wide there are seasonal changes in which the inhabitants have evolved.

Certainly shortened daylight hours need to be taken into account and a coinciding drop in temps. combines to become a natural trigger. While the night time lows would not have to be as extreme as NA Colubrid cycling nor as long of a brumation period, it still needs to be done.

A NTL in the mid 60s with a coinciding warm-up to the low 80s for a few hours a day should do the trick..also good to ward off potential any potential UR issuses. An increase in misting is always a good trigger for tropical Colubrids. Unlike our resident rat snakes, the triggers need not be as extreme or prolonged to get things moving in the right direction.

Bill

But, beauty snakes are not strictly "tropical" or even subtropical. Yunnans and Chinese come from regions in China with very cold winters - like much of the U.S., and will take some real brumation.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Amen. I was just trying to counter the hypothesis that tropical snakes need NO brumation. My Mangroves and Cynodons breed w/no "triggers" as do my Gonyosoma but there are still lower ambient temps in the room in the winter as well as a maninpulation of the day/night lengths...done more for other residents in the room but affects all. I also try a lame replication of the wet/dry cycle by going fairly dry during the winter and ramping up frequency as the ambients climb in the Spring/Summer..LOL

Another thing we've all seen over the years..it can be as simple as a cage change to get the pheromones going! I recently did that w/my Acrantophis and had to pull the male off the female as he was driving her nuts!

Bill

Bill

Much depends on the natural range of the various subspecies of beauty snakes. Some are tropical and some are temperate zone animals.

Blues and Caves should not need much cooling, as they are fairly tropical subs - maybe a month or so of darkness with your natural Florida winter temps. I might try to cool the Yunnans a bit more - depends on your situation. I would probably treat them like Chinese beauties.

I keep Chinese beauties, and I live in south Texas which is not much cooler than Florida. I have brumated my beauties, diones and bimaculata in a refrigerator at about 55 - 47 degrees F for 2 - 3 months, for the last few years and have had good breeding results with the beauties and diones. I have also used a window unit air conditioner before with some success, but this is costly.

This year will be different because I don't plan to use the refrigeration method any more, and will simply cool them the way I do my New World subtropicals (corns, kings, green rats). Meaning, I will just keep them in the snake room with the heat turned off and the window open slightly. This causes a wide range of temps, due to cold fronts and warm ups. So - this year will be experimental as far as the temperate zone Asians, and I will not be surprised if they do not have good fertility or even possibly not breed or produce eggs at all. We'll see...

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Thanks.

I can't get even Florida winter temps in the cage area. So I use a wine cooler and fridge.

Looks like I should try to cool the Blues and Caves to 65, and the Yunnans to 50-55(as I do my North American Colubrids)???

Or do you think the latter needs 40s?

Any luck with the Bimacs at those temps? I have those too.
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

All sounds good to me. I don't think Yunnans should need colder temps than the 50's.

I have not had good results with my bimacs either at cold, refrigerated brumation or subtropical cooling. I have gotten slugs from the females and that's it. Strange, because they are supposed to be easier to breed than diones according to some folks.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>All sounds good to me. I don't think Yunnans should need colder temps than the 50's.
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>>I have not had good results with my bimacs either at cold, refrigerated brumation or subtropical cooling. I have gotten slugs from the females and that's it. Strange, because they are supposed to be easier to breed than diones according to some folks.
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>>-Toby Brock
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, as you know I've kept taeniurus, moellendorffi, bimaculata, and dione, among others. I still keep the dione and bimaculata. The moellendorffi would brumate a full four months at 50-60*F. in spite of having a range crossing into the tropics in S. China and N. Vietnam. It was the dry season and they are very responsive to increase in moisture. The taeniurus is from the same range and much, much more. They can range from tropical to temperate, but most can brumate. I think the caves may breed year 'round, but I never kept those.

These snakes are also from pretty warm regions and can do fairly well w/o too much cooling. I kind of semi-brumate some of my herps. Some of the Asians could get by this way. It is cooler and drier, but they still eat occasionally. I use humid hides and put them on UTH's after eating. I think the Chinese taeniurus will breed after a winter of some cooling and heating, maybe getting in the 60's at night, and up to low 70's daytime. The dione are the most cold tolerant and likely have to have full brumation, but might breed with partial brumation. The bimacs are considered subtropical by some and can be kept going all winter easily, but breed much better with some brumation.

Also, the dione and bimacs are fall breeders too. I often put a male and female in the same cage for the winter and they will breed repeatedly and the female will start ovulation as soon as she starts eating well again. Sometimes I put a male and several females together. I did this earlier this month with the bimacs. I put a mature male in with three females and the male bred one of the females the first night in a water jug. He has bred one other since then, and will likely breed all three females before spring. It gets down into the 50's on our back porch and in the low 60's*F. on most days. Most of the time the bimacs hide and don't bother each other. They get a little active in the heat of the day. Keeping a whole group in one cage gives me lots of time to take care of all the other cages and also economizes on space for the winter.

Toby, I don't know why you haven't had more success with your bimacs. This system has always seemed to work for me and we have mostly the same lines. I hope this year will be different for you. Let me know how the conditions in your Herp Room go. Could it be it doesn't get dry enough? Do you ever open the window at night?

Cheers....Terry
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Conserving reptiles by helping to protect habitat...
www.ratsnakehaven.com
www.scenicsantaritas.org

Hey Terry, thanks for the nice response - I just saw this!

Your semi-brumation sounds a lot like what I did with my green rats last year - and they did well with it. Good thoughts on humidity affecting brumating snakes. I keep the window open slightly at night, and closed during the day - during cooling. Yes, it is typically very humid here, even during the winter - but humidity also usually drops a great deal during cold fronts. Temps in the snake room during the winter are extremely variable - with highs in the 70's and lows down into the low 50's during really cold spells.

I keep the green rats' tubs as dry as possible, but with a moist / humid hide, year round. I occasionally mist the beauties' and bimacs' cages during the active season, as our central a/c dries the air in the house considerably - and I have noticed sloughing problems in the taenis if the humidity is below 60 - 70%. I also keep moist hides in the taenis cages - and I will probably keep these moist during the winter, but discontinue misting to coincide with the winter dry season.

I am mystified over my experience with the bimacs - especially after being very successful with the taenis, diones, and green rats. I am planning on doing a couple things differently with the bimacs this year. I will probably post something about it after I get my plans underway.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Look forward to seeing how the bimacs do. Conditions are very different here in s. AZ, being very dry and cooler. I use a space heater and humidifier in my Herp Room.

I'll be looking to produce some baby green rats next year. I hope what I'm doing will work for them.

Talk more later...TC
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Conserving reptiles by helping to protect habitat...
www.ratsnakehaven.com
www.scenicsantaritas.org