Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've never posted on here before, but I would like to share some pics with everyone. This is Neptune, my "high blue" lewisi hybrid. It hatched on 9/12/10, I purchased it from Manny. This photo is from the day I received.

The first pic is from 4 weeks old, and the second is from 6 weeks old when I first seen it shed on its head.

it looks very pure in headshape and color.. but maybe its too early to tell...

My pure one is pinkish-blue and colors change to light green and skyblue when she is hot.. and darkgreen when she is cold..
check out 3pics below...

she is such a cutie! good luck!

Absolutely adorable! Congratulations on your new addition!

Early today I fed it crickets, only 5, for the first time. It has now fully shed its skin and is very bright. It's also grown 3-4 inches in the past 7 weeks.

Why are you giving animal protein to a Cyclura?

They can eat a little animal protein. They are not the same as the green iguanas, which are strict vegetarians.

It's true that they can, *if* they are getting enough real sunlight and conditions are very similar to what they would get in the wild. But there is no reason for captive indoor Cyclura to eat crickets or any other form of animal protein. I do also know that even small amounts of animal protein can cause problems. Kismet was a little over a year old when she came to me. Her original owner did not feed her animal protein but her foster family did include some crickets in her diet. As a result she had kidney problems when I got her that, if left untreated, could have ultimately caused her very early demise.

I'm not being critical. I just don't understand the reasoning behind feeding something that they don't need and that *could* be harmful. If there is a benefit of which I am unaware, I'd really like to know.

The reason is to give my Cyclura wide variety as it would have in the wild. In nature they do live under optimal conditions, but they still consume animal protein. This may shock you but there has also been cannibalism documented on Grand Cayman, where adults may eat hatchlings (don't worry, I'll stick to just feeder crickets and mice). I keep its basking area at 110-120F and the ambient temp at 85-90F, during the day. At night I have a hot spot of 85-90F and an ambient of 75-80F. There's a heat pad in the basking area underneath the tank (always on), and there's a double t5 fluorescent uvb fixture, a 100w exo-terra neodymium sunglo bulb and a 160w zoomed mvb powersun lamp for basking. A 100w exo-terra infared heat lamp creates the "hot spot" at night. I think its got enough for an indoor enclosure trying to replicate nature. Thank you, for your input. I appreciate all comments, criticism, and concern.

Actually, my point was that it's okay for them to consume animal protein in nature *because* they live under optimal conditions as far as temperatures, sunlight and the rest of their diet.

I do think we need to remember that no set up, even the best zoo set up, will exactly substitute for a wild environment. However, it does sound like your set up is wonderful. We also can't replicate a native diet. The foods we feed them in a captive diet, while nutritious, are not the same foods they would eat in the wild. Wild pure lewisi choose from over a hundred different plant foods in the wild. We also know that their digestive system is specifically designed for plant matter. My point was that they don't *need* animal protein and that there is some evidence that it is harmful in captive diets. However, my personal experience is limited to only a single lewisi hybrid. I changed the subject line in the hopes that some of the more experienced keepers with more animals had better insight one way or the other.

If I'm not mistaken, Cycluras in captivity grow larger and quicker than the wild counterparts. So I guess they do pretty well in captivity. That's the opposite with a lot of the green iguanas. The captive greens don't grow as large as the wild counterparts. You see all the pictures taken of giant greens which are wild caught. We have some pretty massive ones that they caught in Florida and kept as pets. Even Florida, they grow larger than the captives.

I don't produce whimpy hybrids! LOL (just kidding)I feed my babies insects from time to time and have never had a problem. There should be no problems as long as they have adequate heat and lighting which is vital for the animal to digest and synthesize the nutrition. Protein is beneficial for Cyclura and Ctenosaura species throughout their life time. I have seen pictures of adult Cuban Iguanas eating smaller Cuban iguanas and adult C. Similis eating rats that were larger than they could devour in one day. Animal source proteins are fine as long as it is given in controlled amounts and it is my belief that it produces a stronger animal if it is offered to babies.

Man, is the head on that iguana turning Blue!

Manny

Hi Many.
That baby Cuban iguana that was eaten by the adult was questionable, the baby had a bunch of white paint on it. The people taking the photos of the cannibalism probably caused it. I could be wrong but that is my guess on that event

n

Hey Kevin, Regardless of the paint, I am not referring to cannibalism. Whether or not the paint triggered a feeding response, The Iguana was after meat(protein) when the smaller iguana ran across it. It’s just that people react like it is an unforgivable sin to offer Cyclura protein. And I don’t mean to give a Cyclura a sirloin beef steak or something along those lines. I also believe that there are different types of “animal” source proteins and enzymes which differ in their makeup and synthesize differently in the specific animal. For example: the protein in a cricket is not the same as the protein in a cow.

Manny..i agree... i just dont understand why some people cant stop this way of thinking that iguanas are humans and also get stuck in just one scientific or non scientific study.. people just pick and choose what they want to be true about their pet.. i have heard some really stupid stuff..
yes its your pet and think what you want but dont go around spreading missinformation ..

IM NOT POINTING FINGERS AT ANYONE!!!
this is just something i was thinking about and just came to my mind right now..

The animal protein are all the same whether you get it from cattle, bugs, or chickens. They are all made up of the same chains of amino acids. the only difference is the concentration of the protein and other vitamins and minerals. The concentration of certain vitamins and minerals and the texture of the muscle meat really depends on the animals-what they do and what they use it for. The lighter color and springer meat is use for quick sudden movement. Cattle stand up a lot so they need more oxygen and therefore the meat is darker and red.

that is not true.. its not as simple as you make it... just ask a bodybuilder.. what kind of meat you eat makes a huge difference..

It only makes a difference depending on how much protein you need. If they animals is a strict carnivore like cats you really need to feed them food that have a lot of protein and fat. That's why cat food have very high protein and fat content, which makes it even unhealthy to feed dogs and a lot animals cat food. When your body deconstruct animal protein by breaking it down in the digestive tract, it is called purine and plant protein is pyramidine. Some plants contain more of certain vital nutrients than others, just like some muscle meat from different animals contain different level of vitamins and minerals. So it is a good idea to eat variety of plants.

And you certainly can't feed dog food to cats because they will suffer malnutrition if fed dog food as the staple.

its not that simple ... let me give you an example based on your own logic on protein:

You say its all aminoacids anyway or chaines of aminoacids and the body brakes it down to the aminos and builds what it needs.. yes?
NOW this is why that is wrong... for example hormones are just proteins so are enzimes (chains of aminos), so by your logic i can eat 100% testosteron or something and it would give me the same thing that i get from meat or a fish in terms of pure aminoacid breaking down from proteins????

Do you see now that its not that simple.. the body cant break it all up to what it needs.. proteins interact with themselfs and tons of other stuff...we can not break down some proteins but the body can change it to stuff that is close to the original.. turning to much testosteron into Esterogen..

the last thing you said about dogs and cats are also wrong...
catfood or dogfood is the same thing.. but cats need more fat than dogs.. this has nothing to do with proteins o nutrients.. its a simple calculation of energy needs.. cats have a greater musclemass in % by weight than dogs and therefore much larger % energy in the food.. and for carnivores energy=FAT

The larger the animal gets the larger mass of bones...and easier to keep body heat, slower moving the animal get and the energy needs get lower in % by weigt... a small animal like a RAT needs more energy than a elephant..

ALSO THIS IS VERY IMPORTAN FACT
the larger the object is the greater the rate of volume to Area.. = larger things have less area= larger thing have less loss of body heat = less energy needs..
JUST ASK A WHALE... LOL

Dude just let it go...

I said animal protein is broken down into purine.... I didn't say anything about testosterone, or other enzyme...or disease causing protein like viruses.

go back and read your own posts

and a virus is not a just protein..its a cell nucleus with DNA and its almost a living organism by definition.. dude i have bin studying this stuff for 3 years... i think i know what im talking about..

the paint on the hatchling was applied by a researcher at the study site. It was a quick way for them to mark animals for their research. It had no bearing on the behavior.

jf

Thank you, everyone. I do NOT believe animal protein is REQUIRED for cyclura, but I also don't believe it will seriously hurt them if given small controlled amounts. I think that 5 crickets a month IS BENEFICIAL for a juvenile, as is 5 mice a year for an adult. As long as it has a BALANCED diet and you provide optimal lighting & heating, it will be ok. So far my Lewisi has not showed any signs of illness or injury. It's grown a 1/2" in the past 7 days since it ate the first cricket and has been more active and colorful than before, that's a fact. Animal protein may or may not be the cause, but I did record that. I really care about my iguanas health, I do my best to do what's best for it. When I threw in the crickets it targeted one immediately, chased it and ate it. In my opinion, it knew what it wanted. Also, a few days ago my iguana was eating its shedding skin off its legs, and that too is animal protein. These are all my beliefs, and I could be wrong. Then again, we could all be wrong, and none of us know what's best for these lizards. They've been taking care of themselves for way longer than we have, so who are we to judge. I hope that this helps people understand we don't know everything, but its good to share different opinions to keep in mind.

This is a good post. And, believe me, I wasn't trying to be critical. I'm just always trying to learn. I only have my own experience with Kismet. I know she had kidney problems when I got her and the diagnosis at the time was that it was due to the animal protein in her diet. I also know that quick growth does not equal health and we need to remember that as well. The reason, for example, greens used to be fed dog food in captivity was because on the farms where they were raised for humming food they were fed dog food and other animal protein because it made them grow quickly, but it also produce organ problems. But that was all the research we had for captive iguanas at the time and it did indeed cause the iguanas to grow very quickly.

So, I'm not arguing that juvenile iguanas do grow more quickly when given animal protein. But, I don't think that necessarily indicates that they are healthy. At the same time, I'm not saying your iggy isn't healthy -- I think that you put your finger on it exactly when you pointed out that we just don't know. I do know that while the Little Blue Book does mention blues eating insects and other animal protein in the wild, it also mentions that their digestive system is designed for vegetation and that they are the perfect herbivores.

I also can't say that my cyclura never gets animal protein because I don't know if she eats the occasional bug that might cross her path when she is in her outside enclosre and I do know that I've caught her chasing the dog away from her dish to steal a bite of dog food. But I don't offer animal protein or encourage it. The bottom line though, is that there is a lot of research yet to be done and I think that discussions like this can be helpful. Because we don't know, we can each only do our best and hopefully keep records of what we are doing (and even these discussions are records). We really don't know until many more generations of Cyclura are kept and bred in captivity.

I agree with you 100%, Susan. Your post is or should be the whole point to this thread and entire forum, thank you. By the way Neptune is 2 months old today. Heres a pic from earlier.

Winter squashes are great for their skin because of the beta-carotene and vitamin A, which is necessary of a nice, healthy, vibrant skin, that allows them to shed better. Parsnips are quite possibly the most nutritious veggies in the world, and possibly the most benign. It is packed with protein, and lots of other vitamins and minerals. Asparagus is a close second. I tend to feed green beans and other beans in the edible pods to my iguana, too. I've noticed that my iguana is more alert and active, and is bulkier, when fed these as part of the salad mixed right in with the greens. He sheds more often, too.