Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday I was out with friends and we came across two butaan in a box. They had been "rescued" from being killed for food four months ago, and fed on a diet of chicken heads and grapes. We rushed them to the best equipped wildlife vet in Manila. This is the male

I think he's still quite young; maybe around 15 years old. He isn't likely to survive, but neither is the much smaller female who is in much better shape.

This is an extreme example, but ultimately the same fate awaits almost every captive rainforest monitor in the world. I'm not aware of any species of rainforest monitor that are regularly bred in captivity, hardly any ever reproduce even as one-offs. There's not a single well established captive population of any rainforest monitor that I can think of and almost all the rainforest monitors sold as captive bred are really wild caught or, even worse, ranched. Rainforest monitor lizards nearly always do badly in captivity. Sadly they include all the species that are likely to go extinct first. I'm not talking about fruit eating monitors, more about species from the indicus and prasinus complex, melinus, spinulosus, and all the tiny little island populations that are raided for the pet trade.

When I post about this, once every four or five years, I get the same old chestnuts about how they aren't economically viable to breed etc etc etc. But truth be told, I don't think people know how to keep rainforest monitors in captivity yet, and until they work it out I think import of all rainforest monitor lizards should be strongly discouraged by all means necessary, and that it's time for people with an interest in monitor lizards stand up for it.

But hardly anybody will. I honestly believe that virtually none of the people interested in keeping them in captivity give a monkey's toss about the plight of the endangered species. They just want the freedom to be able to keep them in their boxes.
-----
Mampam Conservation

That is so sad. Those photos make me sick, and want to ban them.

Then I have another part of me, that says don't ban them. There are a few good keepers around that have done well with species, including Gray's. Though he has two males.

There have been more people breeding prasinus and beccarii. A few more have been breeding macraei. Now hopefully this is just a start.

I do agree with you that some rainforest species shouldn't be kept. Some indicus sp, and doreanus complexes, though several people have bred jobiensis.

I'm sure I'm missing some some species on either side, have/are being bred, and some that shouldn't be kept.

I know someone with 2.2 spinulosus and they seem to have adjusted very well, and are quite bold, his problem is that they prefer bugs over most other food items, and being 3-4' Varanids it's quite a task keeping them full on bugs, other than this they are doing great.

What the US really needs to do, is have a permit system much like Australia this would wing out the kids, and people that just don't give a crap about what they stick in a small box, and cages size for species would be regulated.

That's my rant.

Cheers,
Chad

Oh I forgot to say, if we just plain banned species it'll just make people want them more, and the problem will not go away. This is where a permit system, with the means to captive breed species would come in hand, though all systems have loop holes, it would be better than any joe buying them as they are now.

Cheers,
Chad

That makes me sad. I try not to think about these things because it tends to make me depressed and cause me anxiety. I probably should meditate more! [chuckle]

Aren't butaans banned from the pet trade? looks like this ban is working really well doesn't it. The problem with scientists is most of them don't read the bible the problem with everyone else is they can't figure out what the first story is trying to tell us. to paraphrase it "you can eat ANY fruit in the forest EXCEPT that one" so what happens adam and eve eat that one. PROHIBITION DOESN"T WORK!!!!! It never has and it never will.
Go ahead and argue with me all you want but I have several family members who have made more money than you ever will as a result of prohibition and Jack Kennedy would never have made it to office if it weren't for prohibition. I know some good dirt on that one as well.
Black market monitors will be worth more money any way so ban away. Some one will make good money from it. I have no involvement with my family dealings so it won't be me (mostly gambling, bootlegging and loan sharking anyway.)but it won't be you most likely either.

I don't want a permit system I don't abuse my monitors in fact I pay people to care for them when I am on vacation.

Hi Daniel, first off, all species of varanids are work and expensive to breed in captivity. Rainforest monitors are no different then any others, except its more work. Just work, not magic or vodoo or anything, WORK. You do understand "Work" needs to be supported in some way.

To support hard work, one needs to recieve some form of compensation. Not just money, but in this case, something like help, from folks like you. You are of no help. Yet you could be.

For instance, in my heyday of producing monitors, I would have gladly produced Greys or some other forest species. But sadly, I cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars to buy them, then thousands to house them, and recieve nothing for them. Even zoos do not produce them or any varanids, because its to darn expensive and unless they help with gate, there is no reason to do so.

Other varanids that we bred in numbers at least paid for their own keep. Which is required to maintain a longterm colony. Even such species as prasinus there is only a limited market and they do not lay numbers of eggs, so they really are not likely to support themselves. The days of varanids selling for thousands of dollars are long gone.

Also, their extinction is not based on the pet trade, its based on the locals either selling them for meat, pets, hide, or just killing them off. ALso its about habitat, the countries in question do little to nothing to preserve habitat. That is the key, not "pet trade". A species first requires viable habitat. Human overpopulation and the destruction of forest is the key, again, not "pet trade". I will admit, the pet trade is of no help. That is, unless folks like you and others HELP with producing them in captivity. Also help with regulations that support keeping them and producing them in captivity.

So in a nutshell, we cannot compete with $5 wholesale monitors of any species. Not even close. Also, since when are Greys a petshop species?????????

Also, there are folks that have bred many "rainforest species, but again, its costly and time consuming and is not supported by anyone, governments, biologists, zoos, or the pet trade. You do understand the pet trade is bottom dollar.

What we have in the states is everyone fighting with everyone else. Not helping eachother. And sir, your part of that. Cheers

Yesterday I was out with friends and we came across two butaan in a box. They had been "rescued" from being killed for food four months ago, and fed on a diet of chicken heads and grapes.

What does this have to do with the pet trade? They were collected for food so they were already dead then "rescued" and held for what reason? To sell or was this a person who just took it upon themselves to save them?

Those animals are already banned. So.........

Sadly they include all the species that are likely to go extinct first. I'm not talking about fruit eating monitors, more about species from the indicus and prasinus complex, melinus, spinulosus, and all the tiny little island populations that are raided for the pet trade.

That is a LOAD of crap, the monitor species mentioned have extensive ranges and are common animals. In many places the populations of these species will never be touched. Animals such as spinulosus are uncommon in the pet trade because of the logistics involved with obtaining the species not because they are rare in the wild.There is a possibility that certain monitor populations might be adversely effected by OVER collection but the fact is. None of these lizards are going to go extinct due to collection for the pet trade. That endangered tag gets thrown around quite a bit and in many cases its completely unfounded. Bogus"Feel Good" regulations do not stop the real threats. You might not like the idea of these lizards being caught and your personal objections are fine. We are all entitled to our own views. The problem I have is when biologist try to use the infamous "precautionary principle" and thier position to sway popular opinion and to leverage unfounded legislation. Not only is this a disservice to the foundation of scientific credibility and trust.It usually fails in accomplishing the goal of providing legitimate protection for both the species and the habitats involved.

Monitors such as bengalensis and griseus are afforded appendix 1 protection by Cites, this places them in the same class with mountain gorillas and white rhinos. Commercial international trade in these lizards is strictly prohibited. But these lizards are some the most common reptiles on the planet and are openly collected for food and skins in staggering numbers but God forbid someone gets caught trying to sell a live one. The only people who really care about live reptiles are reptile lovers and reptile lovers are breeders. Things are not perfect and never will be. Thinking that taking animals out of the hands of private collectors is some sort of solution that will end inhumane treatment and animal suffering while preserving wild populations is short sighted. True it might save what amounts to a very small number of lizard's in the grand scheme of things from ending up like the ones in your picture. But overall it will no way protect the animals or their environment and would most likley result in a decresed caring, awareness and understanding from the largest and most vocal group that gives a monkey's toss ...........Reptile collectors!

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

No surprises in those responses. Except Ernie's "That's a load of crap. The monitor species mentioned have extensive ranges and are common animals". I guess he is just trying to be controversial. I'm interested to know if other readers of this forum also believe that these species (from the indicus and prasinus complex, melinus, spinulosus, and all the tiny little island populations) have extensive ranges and are common.

Ernie also confuses CITES 1 protection with the "endangered tag", but they serve very different purposes. The reasons why bengalensis and griseus (the latter incidentally is probably one of the least eaten monitor lizards on the planet and in 20 years I've never seen any product made from its skin) are on CITES 1 are political ones, from the 1960s. It doesn't have any relevance to the status of small island endemic species that are highly profitable for the pet trade.
-----
Mampam Conservation

No surprises in those responses. Except Ernie's "That's a load of crap. The monitor species mentioned have extensive ranges and are common animals." I guess he is just trying to be controversial. I'm interested to know if other readers of this forum also believe that these species (from the indicus and prasinus complex, melinus, spinulosus, and all the tiny little island populations) have extensive ranges and are common.

The problem I have is when biologist try to use the infamous "precautionary principle" and their position to sway popular opinion and to leverage unfounded legislation.

No surprises from you ether, my exact point.

The only thing the readers of this forum can do is look at range maps. Not a very accurate way to measure a species abundance or true range. I am sure you must understand that range maps represent nothing more then documented finds and occasionally a few unconfirmed account's. They can provide a starting point but do not verify a species total actual range or its abundance. In fact they often paint a very inaccurate picture. You want everyone to jump on your personal bandwagon. Thats fine but popular opinion doe not equal truth. Your arguments seem to be in the same vein as the ones the people attacking the Japanese whalers are using. The, I don't like it so its wrong approach with a touch of partial scientific evidence thrown in to add credibility. The complete picture tells a far different story.

Spinulosus is a common lizard that has only been "documented" from a few locations but its very likely that it occurs in others places. The bottom line is the pet trade will never cause the demise of these lizards. Who knows some taxonomist might come along and reclassified this "species " as indicus. Then what would the range be? You included indicus on your list of monitors with tiny little island populations that are raided for the pet trade. What would you estimate the total population of indicus to be? Its huge. They are very common and adaptable. Again the pet trade poses zero threat. Prasinus, are very common. The truth is the exporters can supply far more then the pet trade market can support.

Ernie also confuses CITES 1 protection with the "endangered tag," but they serve very different purposes. The reasons why bengalensis and griseus (the latter incidentally is probably one of the least eaten monitor lizards on the planet and in 20 years I've never seen any product made from its skin) are on CITES 1 are political ones, from the 1960s. It doesn't have any relevance to the status of small island endemic species that are highly profitable for the pet trade.

No, Im not confusing CITES 1 protection with the "endangered tag". And you said it the reason these animals are cites listed are "political ones".

I know how these terms are used by ....Cough, strict regulatory definition. My point was that whenever that good old CITES 1 pops up you can bet the endangered tag as well as other environmental catch phrases such as conservation, protected etc. are soon to follow. Its all part of the game. The examples I gave were just that examples of the game. Your version is just a variation of that game. The one commonly used by biologist. Fair enough, but dont make it seem like its anything more.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie - Daniel was not talking about V. prasinus, the species itself, but rather the "prasinus complex" ones taken in fairly large numbers from small distributions - V. macraei from Batanta and V. beccarii from the Aru come to mind. There is virtually no breeding of these imports and a lot of them are taken and distributed as terrarium pets. I'm a breeder myself, and I have to side with Daniel on this one. A whole lot of these animals come in and you see a few spotty successes with them, but mostly sick and thin animals that die off by and large. It's sad.

The "process" by which they get here makes the animals so thin, dehydrated and weak that they are tough to revive to be viable and to breed too. I'm more irked by the process and how most people choose to house these animals than anything else.

Now your twisting things a bit,
My responses were directed to the blanket statements made by Daniel. " Ban import of rainforest monitor lizards" He made an inclusive list "I'm not talking about fruit eating monitors, more about species from the indicus and prasinus complex, melinus, spinulosus, and all the tiny little island populations that are raided for the pet trade. "

At no point did he specify a particular species in a particular location. In fact what I said was,

There is a possibility that certain monitor populations might be adversely effected by OVER collection but the fact is. None of these lizards are going to go extinct due to collection for the pet trade.

I also find it somewhat devious of Daniel to try and gain support for his personal views by starting a thread entitled "Ban import of rainforest monitor lizards" and then posting a picture of some badly abused lizards that had NOTHING to do with the import of rainforest monitor lizards. In an attempt to gain emotional not scentific support. This is a simliar ploy thats commonly adopted by activist groups . I used to think better of Daniel .

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Fair comment that those dying Butaan have nothing to do with pets and importing. But the fact that thousands of these animals come here to die off slowly is a irritating challenge to get people breeding them and get off of importation. For the "bigger picture" i agree with the post - lets see some captive breeding or stop buying these animals, although the 'science' or facts behind it are flawed and misleading.

It's amazing how much misinformation (or at least unsubstantiated info) is floating around on this thread, all in the name of self-interest and nothing more. It makes me realize where the priorities of the reptile community truly lie, and it's not on the well being of the animals.

Why we would choose to believe the information given by importers instead of biologists in the field? Isn't that like listening to the Tobacco Lobby's information on smoking deaths? Importers have an obvious bias on this issue and, once again, their interest is not in the benefit of the animals.

With regards to 90% of Grey's dying to natural causes, where is the data supporting this? Is there a field study? Observation? What evidence substantiates such a claim? Is it a guess?

With regards to this issue not being related to captivity, did many of you miss the part where he mentioned that they were being kept in captivity after being "saved" from a trap? Yes, they were caught for meat but their condition is due to their time in captivity.

With regards to doing something productive (or positive), I would say Daniel Bennett is being quite productive in committing his life to these field studies as opposed to sitting at home tryng to make up information to justify more reptile importation. A lot more can be learned from his studies than the made up garbage presented as fact around here.

daniel is the one who stated BAN all rainforest monitors, which is about as wrong as you can get.

Then he uses Greys that were collected for meat(he stated) Then blamed the pet market.

By behavior, rainforst monitors are about as safe as you can get, THEY ARE HIDDEN by the forest. If you cut the forest down, you not only rid the area of varanids, but all over forest life. or simply change it.

Forest or aboreal varanids are the hardest to collect, They climb trees and or hide in them. So they are not about to be over collected easily.

That simple minded biologist think forest monitor varanids have lower population numbers then terrestrial varanids is silly. My guess is, aboreal reptiles have denser populations, in a multidemensional habitat.

Ground dwellers are simple, in a hole or not. Under a rock or not. All their choices are within humans playing field.

Yet, we know that you can collect the beans out of ground dwellers and not impact the population(daniels own work with Savs) But because you cannot see the forest(monitors) through the trees, daniel thinks they are different. They are not. They are better at hiding and varanids are very good at hiding, great eyes they have.

I do think the system or lack of any viable system sucks. But instead of helping with a system that works, or talking about how to make this work, Daniel goes deep and worthless end and states, Ban forest monitors Which is very prejudiced and worthless. Protect habitat yes, ban a tiny common piece of the habitat, is naive and ignorant.

What is funny is, as Basinboa mentioned, many of these species are collected AS THEY CLEAR THE FOREST. Hmmmmmmmmmm Stop clearing the forest. That is the key. Blaming the pet trade is about dumb as a stone.

Not to throw a stick in the spokes, but at the same time I was friends with Daniel, I was also friends with MIKE, Mike was a japanese reptile collector that was responsible for many of these species being legally exported out of indo.

His stories had more science and truth then did daniels. First, many of the commonly exported varanid species, were taken from disturbed habitat. That is, he said you could not find numbers of those species in natural forest, so they had locals collect them around farms and in towns, where they were common. This included prasinus.

Also, Mikes view was, the only way to preserve these species is to make them valuable. That way, the locals will not destroy their source of income. This by the way was exactly what daniel use to tell me. Its all about the local people. Ethnobiology I believe.

It appears Daniel either got upset as seeing two greys about to die, or he simply used them to rant.

The reality is, 90% of all greys hatched this year will die. And will die a nasty horrible death. From dehydration, to starvation, to having birds peck their guts out, to ants killing them, to all manner of nasty deaths. What is important is, making sure the forest still has the ability to replace those animals.

The actual truth is, cars will take out thousands upon thousands of times the numbers the pet trade does, but no one is taking about banning cars. or making roadways safe for animals. heck with that, just keep running them over, and blame the pet trade. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I could go on and on about daniels naivity, but you get the picture. How about doing something constructive, like teamwork, instead of creating drama. Good on you Daniel.

of note, Indo enforces a quota system. Each species has its own quota. Also some species are protected. And that included prasinus. Only the government used CITES regulations and allows captive born animals to be deregulated and exported.

Anyway thanks for the chance to rant.

I have to agree with most of what was said by Frank Retes.

I do witness what happens here in Brazil with the illegal trade. One of the most looked for snake is the Emerald Tree Boa, and most people think they are quite rare, when in fact they are quite common through amazon.
They are very difficult to spot and for that reason not too many enter the market each year.

I have seen the collection in Marajo Island and I can tell you they will not be able to collect all of the snakes because of the pet trade. The situation would be worse if it was legal to collect and export thou, as more people would be doing that.

But most arboreal species are just as Frank said, not rare, just rarely seen. It is not true for all species, but for many. Forest pit vipers are also arboreal but are much harder to find in most regions of amazon, although they can be relatively common in other areas.

Pet trade is surely another pression over the populations. But surely not determinant for extinction.
The whole forest is business, all activities come together.

The real threat for them is the extractivism of wood, minerals, metals and the expansion of cattle and agriculture. These take the forest down pretty quickly and nobody can break.

Just read all the information gathered by CITES and you'll see prohibition is not the best way.
Although, a complete freedom doesn't seem right too.

Well, at least with some species the pet trade seem to have an adverse effect on the population. The native people who collect a species of Uromastyx (I think it's the Mali) noticed they have to look harder for them now because there aren't as many anymore. Before they use to be everywhere and they would collect them by the numbers. Back in the 80's the local Mexicans would go out and collect hundreds of Mexican red knee tarantulas (Brachypelma smithi)and by doing so, they've destroyed the habitat because of so much digging. I think a good way would be to teach the locals how to manage the land and use the resources on it to help them sustain themselves. But you are right in most cases. Poverty seems to force people into destroying the animals' habitats so they can feed their family. I don't usually like biologists. Many famous people think they are kindda weird and they don't always tell the truth. John Nash, which is considered to be a lot smarter than Einstein, seem to look down on the people in the biology department. [chuckle]

Well, at least with some species the pet trade seem to have an adverse effect on the population. The native people who collect a species of Uromastyx (I think it's the Mali) noticed they have to look harder for them now because there aren't as many anymore. Before they use to be Uromastyx and they would collect them by the numbers.

That is not true. I dont know where you got that story from but it certainly is not factual.

Uromastyx were NEVER everywhere in Mali they were always only collected from fairly large but specfic areas not far from the river. Only a few people would collect them in "numbers." And only one guy was exportng them

You cant export them to the US currently not because they have become rare but because of a taxonomical name change. The US government wont except the Mali governments cites papers.Uromastyx are still as common as ever in Mali.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I meant Mali Uromastyx not Mali the country.

Mali Uromastyx only come from Mali the country. No Mali Uromastyx have ever been collected for the live trade from anywhere else. Like I said its only a few people involved.
Im Curious. Can you tell the source of your information?

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I can't recall where I got the information.

And, wasn't the reason for banning the importation of the Mali Uromastyx was because they considered a lot of these countries terrorist countries where the a lot of the Uro species came from...?

And, wasn't the reason for banning the importation of the Mali Uromastyx was because they considered a lot of these countries terrorist countries where the a lot of the Uro species came from...?

No . Most Uromastyx have never been banned from importation. A few country's just don't allow any live export. Mali's have only been put on hold for about a year. The last shipment to the US was confiscated by Miami Fish and Wildlife due to the controversial name change. This happened in spite of the fact that a written letter direct from the Mali government stating that the animals were legally shipped and that the new taxonomical name change had not yet been widely excepted. Was presented to them.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

The only country we do not accept uromastyx from are from YEMEN, which exports the benti uromastyx and a few others.....if the occur in another country, we can get some of the others from other countries as long as their not from yemen orignally.

Mali uros like Ernie said are legal if the paperwork is accepted....not because of lack of uromastyx...

Saying it is wrong to ban the import of all rain forest monitors is ridiculous statement. You can argue that the pet trade does not do much damage to the wild population, and I agree with most of what you said about that. Why does that make it ok to keep importing them.
Thinking that you have the right to take an animal from the wild for your own pleasure is just ridiculous. Im not saying I have never bough a wc animal, most of us have. The past few years though since I have been more educated on the subject I rarely get wc, and if I do its a ltc I will be breeding to help the captive population. At this point I realize there is no way to stop it completely, the demand way to high and most people dont care enough to want importing to stop. Thats why its up to the people who truly care to help with the captive breeding. But saying I cant make money off of it so lets just keep importing instead of breeding is a very naive way to think. At least if you actually care about the animals and not just the cash.

First, I do not take animals from nature or I am very very picky about it. You know, like not touch them in the field, but ones found on well traveled roads, could and maybe should be taken. Particularly neonates.

So I ask you, do you keep any captive reptiles or any animal for that matter? If the answer is yes, what gives you that right?

You see, it does not matter what I do or you do, its all about what IS BEING DONE and coming up with a decent way to do it.

In Daniels post, he complains that folks are NOT breeding these animals and he thinks they should. Well they should. So the discussion is why aren't they.

No offense to Daniel, but he does not know which end to feed when it comes to captives. Again no offense, hes just not good, trained or talented in that area. So he thinks no one can do it. He is so very wrong.

These animals are no different then any other(I have produced generations of over 20 varanid species) In fact, I successfully produced 18 species in a single year. And several were indo forest species.

The point is, in captivity we cannot compete with wild caughts. So we have a catch 22. If they are banned, we can then successfully bred them, but we cannot obtain founder stock. Hmmmmmmmmm so we cannot really breed them.

The point is the system, there is no system. What we have is folks fighting folks, which is commonplace across the world. While we are fighting with eachother, these animals will disappear. And that is the truth. And its not about the pet trade.

The only scientific reason to keep animals in captivity is to maintain genepools. And more importantly to make people aware. Most of these animals will never be protected because the general population does not even know or care that they exsist. To make aware, is of prime importance.

If you polled the general public in the states and asked, what should be protected in nature, Bearded dragons or Greys monitors. Bearded dragons would get the backing. Only because millions upon millions of people are aware of them. And no, they do not need protection, but thats not the point.

I think these arguments are extremely good.

Most biologists, ecologists, etc., are 100% technical. They look at the question from a very limited stand point. By doing this, the reality is missinterpreted.

They see the animals and usually interpret the pet trade as another pressure over the native populations, which is true. So the most reasonable thing to do is prohibit this activity.

On the other hand, they usually lack political vision. The human being does keep animals in captivity since the earier eras.
In the beggining, animals were used to help on huntings (dogs), pest control (cats), provide meat, milk, etc (cattle), or even for transport (horses).
At time went by, animals were also kept for company or even because people like to be around them.

Organisms that try to mix the political and technical aspects includes CITES, and it was shown that a rational and sustainable exploration of fauna/flora can actually help against the extinction.

Later in history found that many species can be kept successfully in captivity. Mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fishes, etc.

Considering that the majority of people live in cities, reptiles seem to be perfectly suited for that. They need less space, less food and less time to care for than other kinds of animals. Plus, there are many species to choose from.

So, the tendency is that the numbers get bigger year after year.

There's no way to stop. There are all kinds of groups like PETA and others who try to vanish the keeping of animals but the thruth is that people just love having animals around.
The are some regulations and restrictions being imposed, especially in the USA, but the tendency is that these regulations try to guarantee safety for the people and for the local ecossystems and not ban the keeping of non-domestic animals.
More and more countries are allowing the keeping of these animals, and one example of that is Portugal, that recently allowed the legal keeping of most reptile species, except the large constrictors, venomous, etc.
Brazil is heading the same way. Although there is political fight inside the country about that subject, the laws that passed permited the keeping of wild animals as pets, and is now just depending on the elaboration of a list.

It's gonna be very hard (maybe even hopeless)to save all species. No doubt that some will disappear forever due to habitat destruction. In most countries the government are very corrupted and the people live in poverty as a result. I think most people are willing to help preserving wildlife if they get enough to eat and start living in better conditions. I don't think a lot of biologists realize this and how miserable it is to suffer. It isn't just your body that suffer, but you suffer spiritually and emotionally. Trust me! I speak from experience. I've suffered a great deal and plenty throughout my life. If hell exist, then I've been there and back.... A lot of people don't understand this because they've never really suffered the way I did and been scared out of their mind.

They should get right down to the root and help the people and educate them about animals and the ecosystem.

I don't think it's only a matter of poverty. Rich countries also destroy, and when not in their own terrotories, they finance destruction in other places.

Unfortunatelly many species are yet to end because of man.

I don't think most people are evil by nature. I mean we have the ability to cause death and destruction to other people, not just animals, but I think most can learn to behave.

I'm sorry! I'm just tired of some people telling others that because they didn't do this and that, they are not worth their the time and effort. I get that a lot, although I try to be a perfect person. I just think the situation that we are having is not as simple as we think. There are people dying and suffering, and most of them are OK people, that psychopaths have taken advantage of to make money. When you start to suffer a great deal and feel like you are alone, hoping that someone would help you, then you start seeing things from a different perspective.

FR I am not arguing with most of what you say. And yes I have own reptiles and even a few wc, as stated in my previous post. I was just stating that saying its "wrong" to ban rainforest monitors seemed a little ridiculous.

I agree that if there is to be captive breed population you have to have founders stock. Certain qualified breeders could have access to wc. Just not some random person who wants a cool pet. Even if that one monitor doesnt hurt the overall population, does that make it ok?

There have been a lot of post about how you cannot make money from breeding these monitors. Well if we are importing them in order for people to breed them for preservation reasons, why does the money matter?

Even if stopping the importing of these monitors (except under certain circumstances) only does a tiny bit to help the wild population, or even just a chance at helping its worth it.

I am of course no expert, it just seems like instead of trying to come up with a solution a lot of people, and the few people who have expertise, just say it wont help. So instead of saying why it wont help, say what will.

Do you think housing a pair is breeding a species?

A captive breeding program is housing generations of a species. Producing one is silly childs play.

To be of any use, a captive breeding program must produce hundreds upon hundreds to impact anything.

If your going to replace the wild caught varanids, do you think you can do that in your bedroom? hahahahahahahahahaha

I think you need to consider the scope of what it takes to produce varanids, then you would understand that it takes support.

Many folks here only think in terms of money, as in, for the money. That is based on pure commericalism. Its not about that, it does take money to pay your bills, It takes space, space is expensive, power, water, equipment, etc. all cost money. If you have any ability to produce offspring, you will soon need help in the form of labor. Which costs money.

Money can come from many areas, grants etc from other groups, or in the case of the pet trade, from the sale of excess animals. Which is looked down upon in the scientific world.

So sir, where do you think a indo forest monitor project could gain finacial support?

No offense, but I(goanna ranch) has shown that you can produce any varanid species in number. Now it takes support. Those like Daniel do not want to help, all they want to do is whine. Sorry but its true.

This story is long and sad. It takes all kinds of people to actually allow conservation. its takes those good in many different fields. The most important is always those responsible for the generation of captial. Without that person, nothing gets done.

So tell me, how could you do this without money?

I believe there is some sense in everything that was told here.

Some species are suitable for captivity and others don't.

I can tell everyone here in first hand what prohibition makes: I live in Brazil and my country prohibits importation and keeping of non domestic animals (except for a couple birds and parrots).
I can tell the number of illegal animals is ever growing here, although we don't have nearly as much availability of exotic animals as americans have.
I can post a thousand pictures like the ones posted in this topic. It is my belief that the activity of keeping these animals will not cease, no matter what the laws say.

Here in Brazil we are not allowed to keep them, yet vet clinics keep receiving more and more reptiles. We seldom export anything legally, yet most brazilian species that are interesting to the hobby (rainbow boas, amazon basin emerald tree boas, false water cobras, etc.) are readily available in Europe and USA, and also here in Brazil, of course. It means the collecting of wild animals will not stop because of prohibition.
A few species are now very competitive as captive bred, and so much better in color, health etc., that makes importing WCs useless.

I think people should be able to keep these animals legally as long as they have the means for it.
A license system could work well, and decreasing the number of importations too.
I don't think imported animals should be available to the general public. Breeders should be the only ones to buy WC (both big and small breeders).

I also don't think deforestation is the only or main cause for extinction. All these activities are linked. A country with weak enviromental laws makes room for these things. Irrational exploration of flora and fauna comes in a single package. I cut the tree, you sell the wood, he collects the animals, she collects the minerals. It is a chain of activities that are all linked.
You don't a lot of australian or brazilian species being sold as WC. It is always the same group of species, mostly SE Asia and African. These countries have a lot in common.

Varanus species have no reason to cost U$100 or 200. It is even ridiculous that an animal cost less that one would need monthly to keep with minimal conditions.
As someone said before, any kid can buy a water monitor. But what will happen in the next couple months?

This abundance without control is turning against yourselves. Animals are imported by the thousands and sold for way too low prices. I think we all see what is happening to Florida with burmese pythons and nile monitors.

The ones who are going to pay for that are you people who dedicate your lifes and thousand of dollars to your animals. Not the Joe-nobody who buys a savannah monitor for U$ 25 in the local pet store.

I meant no offense to anyone. I just think Mampam has a little reason.

It seems clear from the reactions on this thread that a large amount of the reptile community is interested in nothing more than their own personal "wants" and many are willing to use any justification to keep the availability of these animals open to them.

It seems like ecology and conservation would be the main aims of a community of reptile keepers but I guess selfishness is the true order of the day.

I agree that idealy there would be some kind of bann on certain species. but like people have stated would it really have much effect? People would just find a way around it.

Having said that I do not think we should just say "Oh it wont work lets not try." I would give up my right to buy these monitors just for a slight chance at helping the species. If you say it probly wont work so dont try, you are only thinking of yourself, not the monitors. Im not saying it should be done, but its definitely something that needs serious thought.

On a similar note, anyone who has experience breeding these animals shoud keep detailed info and release it to the public. There is a online peer review journal called biawak that post a quarterly journal full of great info, if you havent check it out and submit any good info you have to them.
http://www.varanidae.org/biawak

Any of these animals can be bred in captivity. I have zero question that getting in a group and doing them the "right" way that they'd flourish. The problem is that cheap imported Indo Monitors, and even some fairly expensive "tree" monitors seem to end up in people's hands who have little experience with Monitor husbandry because they are pretty. The animals are housed in small glass tanks with screen tops (dry), fed eggs and meat and don't live too long like that. In proper caging, humidity, lighting and diet, they do well and have proven to breed. But how do we get "newbies" to stop buying these animals and keeping them in poor conditions? Kept correctly, there would be CBB animals available and importation could be simply unnecessary - just like in Australian species these days. How do we, as a group, get people onboard with correct husbandry (which is expensive and time-consuming vs most reptiles by the way)?

This is definately a complicated subject.Though i have personally bought wild caught monitors i see no problem banning them from export.This won't save the species in the wild,but unless we find a way to make sure the majority of wild caught thrive healthy in captivity,what does importation accomplish.If we were to ban all monitors now how many species other than odatria would be sustained through captive breeding,that's the question we should ask?

I have incubators full of V. panoptes horni and V. gouldii flavirufus (non-Odatria) along with a ton of Odatria eggs. It's the keeper....not the kept that is the issue. With thousands of Savannah Monitors being brought in, who in their right mind would breed this species when selling the offspring you are competing with $25 wild-caughts? It costs a heck of a lot of money to breed Monitors. They require serious space, heat and feeding almost daily.

That is why I believe if there is going to be a strong captive breed population of any of these monitors it will have to be through smaller private collections. Why would a breeder spend a ton of money for an animal they cant make money off of. Its the hobby breeders who do it for fun not the money. For example I am about to start breeding black trees. I am good friends with a guy who has breed them several times and he is going to help me along the way. I am not planning on making money off selling them I just think it was be an amazing experience. I would just sell them at a good price to other people who are serious about breeding them. I dont blame people who breed reptiles for a living for not breeding them. Its their lively hood.

Getting into how cheap people sell wild caught savannah and a lot of other reptiles is a whole different subject. Thats when you get into impulse buys and throw away pets. That the worst part about the reptile industry to me. If you bought a reptile for $25 dollars do you think most people will take care of it the same way they wood if they payed $200 for it?

I totaly agree with Twillis.

Some species will never be economically possible to big breeders. It doesn't matter because there are dozens of species good for that purpose.

Small private breeders can do a lot for the pet trade and perhaps even conservation. They breed their animals because they like it and don't necessarily need to make money out of it.
Most species can be available as CBB this way.

I don't think dogs and cats were ever bred by big guys. Yet, very high quality ones can be bought from people who do it in their backyard.

That is why I believe if there is going to be a strong captive breed population of any of these monitors it will have to be through smaller private collections. Why would a breeder spend a ton of money for an animal they cant make money off of. Its the hobby breeders who do it for fun not the money.

Big breeders are big because they have an insatiable passion for these animals. They all love the animals and they all have stuff they keep just because they like it.

Mark Bell for example is the largest reptile breeder in the world and he keeps and works some of everything. Including seldon kept monitors. Just because. So do many others including myself. Most people have no idea they think "big breeders " only care about ball pythons and morphs.

Plenty of "Hobby breeders" do it as much for the money as anyone else. If anything some of the greediest most selfish people I have ever met have been "hobby breeders " doing it for the love . LOL

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Im not saying they are heartless people who don't care about the animals (even though some do seem that way). When you depend on the income from breeding animals for feeding your family are you going to spend money on monitors you hope will breed and maybe make a little money, or will you get a few high end ball pythons you know you can breed and sell easily. There are certainly a few really big breeders who can afford to work on projects that they just enjoy and don't make much money off of. But not near enough to do much good on its own. I was definitely not trying to talk bad about the big breeders. Just stating that hobby breeders can play a big role in this, instead of just sitting back and pointing fingers.
I know for me personally keeping monitors is something I love. Even though its not much I would like to do my part in helping establishing a captive breed population of certain species.

breed them huh. Your attitude might change after you've spent thousands of dollars and years of hard work and you have two eggs to show for it, and then you spend another 200 days watching the incubator and they don't hatch. Then when you finally do get some to hatch you're just gonna give them away?

You are crazy if you think ANYONE working with these animals for the long-term does not have a deep passion for them, and the attitude of your post speaks for your ignorance.
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I love how you assume I don't know how difficult it is to breed them. Like I think they will poop out eggs that hatch in 6 weeks like bearded dragons. I wouldn't even attempt if I didn't have someone who is an expert who will help me hands on all the way. Sorry he wants to pass his knowledge down to someone else. Sorry for my ignorance.

Twillis, you are exactly what he is talking about, how about you learning with ackies, instead of STARTING with a wild caught forest species?

You are like Daniel. I advised him years ago to start is field work with a species thats easy to observe. Yet he choose to work with a forest species that is impossible to observe, hahahahahahahahahahahaha, so he wastes years and years and tons of money and has not even observed the basics of varanid behavior. Good on you guys, you must really think alot of yourselfs.

I dont have a wc forest species. I have a cb specimen, I will be breeding with another cb. I also Have a guy that has studied and breed baccari for over 20 years working with me. Someone who has breed them for the love of it, not trying to mass produce them for a profit.

I realize that you have tons of experience in with varanids, and I guess because of that you think you know everything. I really enjoy reading a lot of your post because they are very knowledgeable. You just often come off as being arrogant.

Really I should have known your stance on importing and not even bothered. And really thanks for treating me like a dick. I think you have convinced me to just keep importing monitors. Or whatever else I want. because apparently thats ok.

You are so missing the point. The small hobby breeders are small because they do not have the resources to be anything else. No offense.

Lets say, you do not have the ROOM for a large snake collection, so you keep a few animals well. Good enough

The problem with varanids is, a pair of medium sized varainds takes the space of a large snake collection.

A pair of mediumed sized varanids consumes the food of a large snake collection.

What krusty stated above is ABSOLUTLEY true. Its all about the keeper, and there are just not that many keepers willing to put the WORK in with varanids in general, muchless some wild nasty indo biting crapping bag of scales. And if successful, recieve no support what so ever.

There have been folks here that actually produced Savs, with the hope of being able to sell the offspring for more then wildcaughts. Guess what, you can sell a couple for more, then bam, its bottom dollar for the rest.

You say, its not about the money, but what the heck happens if you cannot excess offspring? They become more mouths to feed, more cages to acquire and maintain, etc. Then once you have your husbandry down, you recieve many clutches per female per year. Next thing you know, you hate varanids and those that keep them, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ok thats a little much but not that far from the truth. The truth means, its history.

That your here is to be questioned to start with. If you had a passion and it takes passion, you would not care what anyone thought. You would do what your going to do anyway. In fact, if you had passion, we would have to shoot you to stop you.

So, even if you produce a dozen blacktrees, who cares, many have. The point is, a dozen blacktrees will not effect anything WHAT SO EVER. It will not save blacktrees in nature and it will not put a dent in the captive demand. Not even locally.

FYI, I produced over 100 lacies, and so far, only two others have bred them, ONCE EACH. And that is over a 15 year period.

I produced hundreds of V.flavirufus, since 1992, many hunbreds, and only a handful have produced them. Hmmmmmmmm you see, on this scale, I am a small time hobbyist. You would have to produce thousands to have an impact. And the same goes for imports. And please do not blame hobbyist like Daniel does.
The universities, DO NOTHING TO HELP. Nor do zoos. In all other trades, universities are to develop methods and techiques, and pass them on to the public sector. With reptiles, not so much. No, not at all. Universities(funded) have not developed anything but useless information(for applied husbandry)

Well in my opinion, all species are easy, if you have the room, and the passion, and the resources, and are willing to give up any other life, hahahahahahahahahahaha, ok, over dramatic again, but there is some truth to that too.

OK, in the past couple of decades, there have been a million folks like you, that say what you say, etc. They have all failed. So I throw the gauntlet down. Put you money where your fingers are(typing)

All the talk in the world will not help you, you seem to have set your course, well go for it. And keep us informed with both your successes and failures. You see, most dissappear after one of their wonderful monitors die and they do die. If you can get past that, that may seperate you from a common hobbyist. You see, to succeed, you must overcome failure. Thats what causes you to learn. Most here, and I mean most like Daniel, fail, then quit. hmmmmmmmmmmm As Daniel explained to me, his interest with varanids started by losing two in captivity. I suggest to him, to learn more about his wild Greys, how about actually learning to keep them in captivity. You see, in captivity, they teach you what they are. If you fail, they are simply telling you, you do not know what you think you know. And they do that with their most important possession, their lives. Cheers

The main point of my post was :
"I'm not aware of any species of rainforest monitor that are regularly bred in captivity, hardly any ever reproduce even as one-offs. There's not a single well established captive population of any rainforest monitor that I can think of and almost all the rainforest monitors sold as captive bred are really wild caught or, even worse, ranched. Rainforest monitor lizards nearly always do badly in captivity."

I suppose I was hoping that somebody would give some examples of well established captive bred rainforest monitor populations to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting for that. "Doing well in captivity" meant just keeping them alive in the 1980s, but now it means "having been bred in captivity to the nth generation".

I thought Ernie's post was just strange. But if you type "Varanus spinulosus for sale" into google, it makes much more sense, and consequently I don't think it's even worth responding to. It speaks for itself. I've never had any respect for people who sell small island endemic species, unless they have bred them themselves. Check the archives and find similar posts about how melinus and members of the prasinus group are "widespread and common" by other people involved in the small island endemic animal trade. These guys are in it for the $$$$$$$

I'm used to online abuse from Frank, but he's such a gentleman in real life it doesn't bother me. The point he makes about forest monitors living in a 3-d environment is valid, but population densities probably never get anything like as high as in simpler environments because there are many more species living there and much more competition, predation, disease, parasitism etc. My best population estimate for V. olivaceus in my main study site (where the animals are still "common" ) is rather less than 1 animal per ha. That's based on camera trapping and fecal densities over more than a decade and it isn't influenced by how difficult the animals are to catch. I'd be extremely surprised if any rainforest monitor species reaches much more than 10% of the population densities attained by exanthematicus in the coastal plain of West Africa.

Of course habitat destruction is the main cause of biodiversity decline everywhere. But when animals only occur on very small islands, are near the top of the food chain and fetch high prices as wild-caught pets in distant parts of the world then the wildlife trade is an obvious threat. Varanus melinus is a good example. "The colorful and highly sought-after V. melinus has, according to the local animal trader on Mangole, experienced a serious population decline after exploitation started in 1997 (K. Flores, pers. comm. to Weijola, 2009" (page 31 of Weijola, Valter S-Å and Sweet, Samuel S: A new melanistic species of monitor lizard (Reptilia: Squamata: Varanidae) from Sanana Island, Indonesia, page 17-32. Zootaxa, No. 2434, 2010).

But this isn't just a conservation issue, it's also about animal welfare. Rainforest monitors almost always die without reproducing in captivity. Most of them end up looking a bit like the butaan in my pictures. If they aren't bred in captivity, they shouldn't be in the pet trade.

-----
Mampam Conservation

I don't know if there are any well established captive breed populations. I will say my bacarri is from a captive breed female. I guess that makes it 2nd generation captive breed, though the father was an import. I will also be getting her male sibling soon, and possibly another unrelated male he hatched out a while back and loaned to someone. I know they are truly captive breed because I personally know the guy who breed them. I believe he has had around 5 successful clutches, maybe a few more I cant remember. Also a guy he knows has eggs incubating right now and I will possibly be getting one of those. I will be trying to breed in the next year or 2 if I can get the unrelated male or find an unrelated cb female.

I too would be am curious as to how many of the few cb rainforest monitors are from captive breed parents, and if it goes back several generations. Or are most from wc adults.

From time to time somebody gets a cooperative female rainforest monitor that produces offspring. That's great, but it's not the same as regular and consistent captive breeding. Thus the vast majority of rainforest monitor lizard imports are wild caught or worse, and the vast majority of them are small island endemics...
-----
Mampam Conservation

I kinda figured that. Does anyone have some that are lets just say 5th generation cb?

First, what the heck is a small island endemic. What does that mean?

We know it means a species from a not so large island, but does it mean the island is undisturbed? No humans living there? no predators?

As far as I know, indo varanids are always exposed to many natural predators. Most if not all of those predators have senses that far exceed humans. That is, there sense of smell and sight sight is far keener then ours, and some can fit in tiny holes, like snakes. Yet these monitors still exsist.

This is something I could show you here. You know, areas that have been commerically collected for decades and as long as the habitat is intact, the reptiles are fine.

In short, unless we use dozers and chainsaws, occasional visits from collectors, or consistant collecting by locals, has a way of balancing out.

Now please, do not use an example of fruit feeders, then say small island endemics, and confuse the issue. You are being vague and evasive. Of course there may be exceptions, but because you generalize, then use specific examples, your ban forest monitors is naive and scatterbrained.

Without question, some examples may need protection. As I mentioned, those species are protected. And that includes several species of forest monitor.

In your case, some locals of Greys may need protection. Wouldn't that be your responsibility to identify those locals. But to jump the gun and state, BAN all forest monitors, weakens your case. Cheers

I thought Ernie's post was just strange. But if you type "Varanus spinulosus for sale" into google, it makes much more sense, and consequently I don't think it's even worth responding to.

So you felt my post not even worth responding to? But you did and now its cheap shots Daniel? The when all else FAILS "These guys are in it for the $$$$$$$ " card is played out.

No one including you has to google anything. If they have legitimate questions. I will give them the factual first hand answers. Not the second and third hand guesswork dribble that people including you dish out. You keep yapping about the trade. The fact is you don't know anything about it! Retes was exactly right when he said

"How about doing something constructive, like teamwork, instead of creating drama. "

I've never had any respect for biologist who create drama and resort to the type nonsense and game playing that you have during the course of the thread.

Biologist often turn to importers /exporters and work with them to gain information about where certain animals are found, how they are found, their numbers etc. Importers /exporters have been responsible for the discovery "new" species and providing a great deal of information to science. Including information about indigenous wildlife and how this wildlife interacts and is used by the local people.

The importers /exporters are always the people most willing to work with wildlife authorities and biologist to look for viable ways to maintain a healthy balance between nature and sustainable usage. To protect natural habitats. TRUE conservation!

The person who initially stated the live trade of Indonesian reptiles was a very well known biologist and conservationist, the all time largest trader in Asian wildlife was also a very well known field naturalist who did substantial amount of conservation work. Many people working in the live animal trade have strong academic backgrounds and have written and contributed to many puibished scientfic works.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

That's hilarious. Scientists have "worked" with reptile dealers when new species turn up that are only known from the pet trade. I always said they were crazy trusting anything they were told by those people, and sure enough, it looks like all the location data they were given for those new species was false.

In my own limited experience, when it comes to the conservation of small island endemics, reptile exporters are the enemy. They have never contributed anything but lies and misleading information.
-----
Mampam Conservation

"That's hilarious. Scientists have "worked" with reptile dealers when new species turn up that are only known from the pet trade. I always said they were crazy trusting anything they were told by those people, and sure enough, it looks like all the location data they were given for those new species was false.

In my own limited experience, when it comes to the conservation of small island endemics, reptile exporters are the enemy. They have never contributed anything but lies and misleading information."

Of course!!!! To protect the locality info and get top dollar from the Pet Trade distributors. These people are not stupid they know that they will fetch top dollar for "rarer" animals and it would be stupid of them to reveal locality data in the name of conservation. They have mouths to feed at home, and the less competition there is when they go out bush and collect the more money comes into the household and the happier they and their families are. The only preservation going on in this vicious cycle is the human one. For them it's get paid or starve, sorry I too do not buy the hand in hand collaboration amongst trappers and biologists/scientists/conservationists being described above. Even less so when the global economy is in shambles.

my .2

That's hilarious. Scientists have "worked" with reptile dealers when new species turn up that are only known from the pet trade. I always said they were crazy trusting anything they were told by those people, and sure enough, it looks like all the location data they were given for those new species was false.In my own limited experience, when it comes to the conservation of small island endemics, reptile exporters are the enemy. They have never contributed anything but lies and misleading information."

" In my own limited experience". That says it all abut you, and who you really are. The rest of that statement is your personal contribution to the lies and misleading information.

Your experience is LIMITED but you keep talking as if your an authority. Its become very clear that it would be crazy to trust anything you say, Its painfully obvious that you are willing to say or do anything to push your own personal agenda. I have completely outed you. You know that I know what Im talking about and what I have siad is true. Because my information does not support your personal agenda. I scare you. And in your own defense....all you have used is games and nonsense to try to and manipulate NOT educate people in to believing what it is you want them to believe.

Perhaps if you ever obtain something beyond a "limited experience". We can have a constructive conversation but until that time. Like I said before .

The problem I have is when biologist try to use the infamous "precautionary principle" and their position to sway popular opinion and to leverage unfounded legislation. This is a TOTAL disservice to the foundation of scientific credibility and trust.

You have proven yourself to be that guy!

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Daniel, you keep living in the past, there are no high prices that allow the special collection of rainforest varanids. Those days came and went.

I have not kept up with whos doing what in captive breeding, but I have heard of some folks producing some of the prasinus group. Some folks producing crocs, etc.

Again, its simply not something you can justify when it takes thousands of dollars to produce a captive, and you can buy them for a few hundred bucks(the rare species) Not in the long run, which is why you do not see long term programs. That cage space would be far more valuable breeding common bearded dragons or mice, like I do now.

The point is simple, any species that cannot be exported, can be produced in captivty and supported, based on the cost of keeping that animal. But if they're imported, the value is based on how much the exported pays for those animals(almost nothing and it doesn't matter what species) and shipping. Those are their only hard costs.

like I said, you want them bred in captivity, but do not want to help. Not even with simple encouragement, muchless with something of value, like the aquisistion of working individuals.

Daniel, may I ask a simple question, what happened to the Greys breeding project that was through Dallas zoo. I remember, the curator called me and asked if I would pay something like $7000 per individual, so I could breed them for them. You know, pay that much for the right to work for them. You see Daniel, that plan was not thought out, not in a way to actually be successful.

Daniel, you came here, you saw my facilities. You saw that I planned out my projects so they would work. And they did work. Sir, that is how you make something work. Not starting out with no chance of success.

You see, even with simple varanids, we the keeper must support their success. In this case, You the bioligist, do not support a successful plan to breed them in captivity or even study them in nature. Which is why I never came to your study site.

For instance, you have folks come to your site and do what you have been doing. Hmmmmmmmmmm doing that will not encourage new information. You sir, fight new information, tooth and claw.

So tell me Daniel, have you seen basic life events yet? to what degree?

But I wander, Behavior is key and its not taken into account when biologist work with reptiles. There is already some misguided precieved knowledge that reptiles are behaviorally simple. Which is your first mistake.

I still say, if you want to learn about varanids, then start and yes, you need to start with something that will teach you about varanids.

You are so much like a beginer keeper. You think all species are different, yet you do not understand that all varanids are 90% alike and less then 10% different. You need to gain insight on that 90% alike business before you try to entertain the 10% difference.

If you wanted to carry on a decent conversation, we could discuss how they are all alike. But that will not happen, because you WANT them to be different.

The key different species is, they require the same as other species, but may acquire those needs a tiny bit differently.

The key to any species exsisting is recruitment. And reproductively, there is little difference between what a komodo does and what a kings pygmy monitor does. Except for size.

You see sir, your to keen on what type of fuel drives the motor, and not the motor. Petrol, kersosene, desiel, gas, propane, all fuels that drive the same type of motor. Rodents, fish, birds, fruit, insects, etc, all fuel that drives the same motor. Cheers

Such a shame, the only thing i'll say is there's a lot more people posting photo's of monitor's mating & gravid females, but were still way behind where we should be!!

It's up to us to change their plight by breeding when we can, half of us still think bare boxes are suitable habitats for our captives, i'm sure most species will be banned on animal welfare issues in the years to come, unless we prove out captives are kept in top notch habitats, or at least satisfactory!!

that's my thoughts anyway.

Well this seems to be a good discussion going on here.
A few thoughts on the matter.

I think there are many sides to this equation. But the biggest thing is really about education and sharing information.
Two recent experiences: Someone was asking me about keeping albigularis outside and said theirs died. I asked them if they provided a cool burrow. They looked at me as if they thought these monitors were supposed to be 135F all the time and assumed they could take the heat cause the forums said so. So I had to explain a few things about ground temps,etc...

Another example was a recent resuce situation of large varanids where the owner was literally baking her monitors alive. And this was a keeper on the forums thinking rows of basking lights and 24 hour lighting was the way to go.

My point is in agreement with FR, that we need to really keep educating and sharing information to make everyone aware of what is required and expected when keeping these animals. This is really what is paramount, short of banning everything, everywhere.

As far as import/export. It is such a mult-fold topic that really going back to educating people is really the best option.

You have poor Kojoba who can feed his family selling lizards he caught to an exporter, can you blame him?
or do you then you come in and develop his Country, provide the infrastructure and quality of life we enjoy here, give him an office job and consequently annihilate the environment and wildife in the process.
So which is worse?

You then have people in Countries that swerve on purpose to run over herps, including in the US. but then here in Texas we now have laws making it against the law to stop and move a herp off the road. Yes, that's right, laws that make it illegal to save herps and making it legal to run them over. So much for laws...

Then you have Conservation programs in the animal's own Country, Well, we have lewesi slaughtered a few years back and more recently Crocodilians burned alive at ACES by the natives. Great.

So who cares about Reptiles.. Well during a recent conversation with a Herpetologist I was told about the exciting study of 200 lizards that were killed to satisfy their curiosity about the size of some internal organ. O, K, so how does that help the animals...

But I suppose even if we had widespread breeding the US of rare varanids in the future, that won't change some of the problems we have today. We breed the bejeesus out of dogs, have tons of them, yet we have problems with puppy mills and sick animals and then owners who mistreat them.

So again, it all comes down to care and information and awareness.

In the end it should be about the animals well being so if a successful breeder can keep and propogate an endangered species in captivity, then that should be ok and supported. and please leave the pickling and frivolous studies set aside for roadkill only. I can't stand hearing about a locale animal being killed just to have it on record. But yes, the pet trade is bad as well. Nobody is innocent. We are human, we care but we kill.
But the more people we have on herps side, the better for them.
-----
WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

That was perhaps the best single post i've read on any of the forums in the two years i've been reading/posting. I thing you hit a dozen nails on the head with that one.
-----
"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

You then have people in Countries that swerve on purpose to run over herps, including in the US. but then here in Texas we now have laws making it against the law to stop and move a herp off the road. Yes, that's right, laws that make it illegal to save herps and making it legal to run them over. So much for laws... .........
...................A friend of mine had a pet store in Kissimmee fl. several years back. At one point (unfortunately when I was not there.) some hot shot rookie game warden came into his store and bragged to him and some of his customers about how he could give someone a ticket for helping a gopher tortoise across the road. Under Fl. as far as I know this is technically correct. My response to my friend when he told me about this conversation is the same thing I have said about this for years. I told him that I will always help gopher tortoises or any other turtle for that matter across the road when it is safe to do so and that I look forward to the day this pinhead crosses my path when I am doing so and writes me a ticket or better yet arrests me for it. I am entitled to one phone call and that call will be to one of the local news channels (most likely wkmg as they successfully exposed the burial of a handful of gopher tortoises in the construction of a roadway and got the turtles unburied and threw some people under the bus in the process.). In the grand scheme of things I may end up paying some fine but I the end fwc will lose in the pr department. I would be the same way in Texas where I grew up. You should google bubba the javelina sometime and find out how badly negative publicity can affect game wardens even when they are following "the law", people in texas may hate snakes but God forbid someone ticket you for helping a turtle across the road, and screw their stupid laws.

I think it's an automatic felony for assaulting someone. If someone was an officer of the laws, then you would really be deep sh*t for that. I don't think you further your cause by assaulting people. That's not the best way to get someone attention and gain their sympathy and trust. There are far better ways to do this, like, trying to have good opened dialogs with the public where everyone behaves. You can often make things a lot worst by being a hot head and rushing into things, especially when it has to do with waging PR wars. Plus, I think it may a little dangerous to stop your car in the middle of the road. That happened off of highway 99, here in California, when I was driving at a little over 70 mph on the fast lane, so the car in front of me had to stop suddenly. Then I slammed on the break as quickly as I could, and my car must have skid 30 feet before coming to a full stop. Luckily I wasn't tailgating and kept a good distance for the speed I was driving.

The reason the care in front had to stop because there was another car that broke down on the highway and they had to push it to the side of the road.

I did not say I would assault anyone. I said I would move the animal to the side of the road. I do this all the time anyway regardless of what the law says and will always do so.
What I said was if given a ticket for it or better yet arrested for it my first phone call would be to a local news channel. This tactic is much better than assault would be anyway which would be uncalled for.

It's a nice discussion to read, but unfortunatly I have seen and heard things that usually stay in the dark.

And that is scientist breaking the law by importing/exporting endangered plants and wildlife! I have seen scientist coming home with suitcases full of CITES animals and no CITES!!!? Also reptiles.

Since I have seen the so called scientists breaking the law themselves but elsewere still advocate to "save"nature this and that makes me sick..

The trade is legal, it would be bad to pose a complete ban, promote captive breeding and all work together......

Thats my opinion

I should have had enough experience of this forum to expect little more than personal insults and garbage in response to anything I post, but it always comes as a bit of an unpleasant surprise to read it, and a real chore to have to defend myself publicly when I have so many much more exciting things to do. So this really will be my last posting ever on this sorry sorry forum.

Ernie says that members of the prasinus and indicus complex "have extensive ranges and are common animals" , that spinulosus will likely be reclassified as "Varanus indicus" and that reptile exporters are at the forefront of both the scientific study and conservation of monitor lizards. He goes on to say (of me) "Your experience is LIMITED but you keep talking as if your an authority. Its become very clear that it would be crazy to trust anything you say, Its painfully obvious that you are willing to say or do anything to push your own personal agenda. I have completely outed you. You know that I know what Im talking about and what I have siad is true. Because my information does not support your personal agenda. I scare you. And in your own defense....all you have used is games and nonsense to try to and manipulate NOT educate people in to believing what it is you want them to believe".

Well he does scare me, but I don't know what he's talking about, and I don't think ANY of the things that he has said are true. What I said was that 1) members of the prasinus and indicus complex (e.g. melinus, yuwonoi, spinulosus, boehmei, macraei, reisingeri, zugorum, etc etc) have very small distributions and are likely to include most of the species that will go extinct first 2) that none of the rainforest monitors reproduce in captivity with any regularity. I think it would be a good idea to ban the import of these species for those reasons. I don't think 1 and 2 above are things that I have made up in my tiny brain to force a personal agenda, I think they are facts that are generally undisputed. Consequently I don't feel particularly outed. My experience is limited to just a few areas of Africa and Asia over slightly less than 20 years, and my attempts to "educate" people have been mainly through a couple of books which I'm quite proud of. Not because they are great but because they were much better than anything else available at the time (except Robert Faust's Nile Monitor Book). My comments about wildlife exporters are opinions, and I should have mentioned that I have met two exceptions to my generalisations (Frank Yuwono in Indonesia and Basil Aryetey ("Nii" in Ghana, who . They are partially backed up by the fact that almost all the locality data provided by wildlife dealers for new species in the last 20 years is now known to be false.

Frank's comments, as usual, are more about my own research than the matter under discussion. Maybe if he could remember what the aims of my project were he might be in a better position to decide whether it was a waste of time and money, but I don't think he actually knows. I did tell him several times, but he wasn't listening. I challenge him to remember (clue: there were three main aims). Incidentally, I've never been involved in any captive breeding project for these animals, and my opinion for the last ten years has been that any attempts to keep frugivorous monitor lizards in captivity must address the very unusual diets of these animals and, probably most crucially, their apparent inability to cope with too much excess nitrogen.

As for the relevant parts; A quick Google search suggests that the most expensive monitors offered for sale recently have been small island endemic rainforest species. The prices might fluctuate but they are expensive by most people's standards. I don't think very many of them are captive bred either.

How or why rainforest species aren't regularly bed in captivity is a side issue. Maybe it's entirely financial, although I have my doubts about that just because there are quite a few people who are not into reptiles just for the cash who would probably produce small numbers of rainforest species over many generations just for the fun of it. The fact that that doesn't happen makes me think that maybe it's not just because it isn't profitable. I'm very strongly of the belief that if rainforest species were as difficult to import as Australian species, there would be much more incentive to breed them i captivity, and that would be a very good thing.

I'm not sure what Viperhare's point is, but because I seem to be the only "scientist" getting criticized here I'll set the record straight by stating that I have never sold a lizard in my life, never crossed a border with one and (since my teenage years)have never kept one in captivity that I didn't release at the exact spot where it was captured within a few hours. Maybe he'd like to provide more information about his potentially libelous claims?

To end my contribution to this forum on a slightly happier note; we got the all clear from the vet for the female butaan last night, and so this morning she went on a bit of an adventure...

-----
Mampam Conservation

should have read:
My comments about wildlife exporters are opinions, and I should have mentioned that I have met two exceptions to my generalisations (Frank Yuwono in Indonesia and Basil Aryetey ("Nii" in Ghana), who I found utterly honest and extremely helpful.
-----
Mampam Conservation

Daniel, your techiques if hitting and running is old and naive. You come, make some comments and run off like a child.

Why do you think you should not defend yourself. I have to defend myself all the time. and to you of all people. You who have been here and seen my work, and shared my house.

You still turn a blind eye to what you actually saw. You saw varanids nesting, you said you have never seen that before. You saw varanids cycling in ONE DAY, you said that was not suppose to happen, but you saw it with your own eyes. You saw varanids working in groups as in, a social way. You saw all this and more, and all in relatively normal caging. Yet after you leave, you somehow forget what you saw.

From what you saw, you know dang will I could produce any species, The reason is, I build facilities to do so. Yet you forget that.

You act in a way so very similar to everyone else. You rationalize your failures to make yourself different. Your not. As soon as anyone challanges you, you run.

The sad part is, your a great guy, you have some very special talents. But you also have your drawbacks, like everyone else.

For instance, your approach of doing your work with the very smallest amount of support(the cheapest possible way) will indeed hold you back. Your lack of experience is another drawback.

As mentioned many times, experience is observations gained, not time. Ten years of two important observations is not equal to one year of five important observations(or breakthroughs)

Sir, you need experience, For instance, I worked on one study site, you know, the one I took you too. Lately I have been going in the field with some other rattlesnake freaks, and I have learned that all that time on one site, has serverly hindered my exploring aother areas. It has limited my learning curve in many ways.

So sir, stay and fight with those that disagree with you. Your task is to support your opinions, not run. If you run from this, what else do you run from. Surely its much easier here then in the field. Do you run from roadblocks in the field too?

You stated that I am a gentleman in person, but an arse on here. Well I am the same person, only in person you SEE that I am not a threat or mean, you also see that most of what I do, I include humor. To me, this whole thing is funny, as sad as that is.

Well daniel, its very discouraging to see you always running away from a fight. And again, you are no different then anyone or Me. you also need to defend yourself. or do you think your better then the rest of us? This is a discussion board, its to discuss, which means, back and forth.

The real problem and your concern is out of context to this forum. If we all perfectly agreed on these issues, it would not matter, as all of us on this board, are only a tiny niche of humanity. We would be and are always outvoted by the general public, and its they who are going to cause exstinction of all these species.

As I keep saying, WE NEED TO SUPPORT EACHOTHER, yet you want to fight and cause problems. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I disagree with you. WE need to help eachother, we need to find ways to make progress.

When we met, we both were new, since then, I have developed methods to keep and produce varanids that are now used worldwide. What have you done???????????????? Cheers

Daniel,
Please continue to post. Regardless of what opinions are expressed, it's always good to see what is going on and hear different perspectives.

My question to you is, do you encourage your peer Scientists to NOT collect (and Kill) specimens? It seems to me that if those 116 butaan weren't killed by Auffenberg back then and there wasn't continuation of killing of many more by other Scientists, that would mean many more butaan and other species in population today. With this collecting/killing, this dictates that the Scientists who "discover" or study new species, actually contribute to their extinction. And conversely, if it is OK to go out and kill (collect) specimens for study, then the animals must not really be endangered/rare.

Thanks
-----
WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

I'm very strongly of the belief that if rainforest species were as difficult to import as Australian species, there would be much more incentive to breed them i(n) captivity, and that would be a very good thing.

My sentiments exactly.

Daniel, it was not an assault to you in person let me state that out first.

Unfortunatly I can not go in deaper on the matter of convicted and caught scientists due to the fact that some cases are still under investigation and for privacy of the people involed. One which was in the news some years back was a BBC Wildlife movie maker who was caught red handed!

But to go back on the subject of banning all rainforest varanids is not working! The main country dealing in rainforest varanids is Indonesia, which is also the only exporter, Malaysia and Thailand also export but this is re-export and most of the times not legal. Indonesia works with quota's for all wild caught animals and CB animals are easier to export because there are no set quota's.

Indonesia should encourage more breeding projects and should alse enforce this better.

If animals could not be exported to the USA or EU this will cost Indonesia a lot of money and for a developing country this could be defastating. Also the local people are depended on the natural sources.

I do not have the answer at hand for this complex issue but a allout ban does not work and only encourages illegal animal trafficing which is happening with birds now because of the all-out ban in the EU.

Unfortunately, glancing over the myriad of opinions on here concerning this issue, my opinion hasn't changed that the vast majority of the reptile community has nothing but self interest in mind. Even the less extreme people are still far more interested in their own ability to keep these animals than whether or not the animals population or habitat is being hurt by the pet trade.

Regarding the various accusations against the methods of scientists: even if these accusations were true (with no evidence provided I certainly wouldn't be willing to believe), does it justify the exportation of these animals for the pet trade? Does the wrongdoings of others justify our own? Do the actions of the local people (like killing and eating monitors)somehow make our own actions okay? Once again, this just seems like an attempt at justifying the animals that will die in our fishtanks or during the importation process. It seems like a childish argument, "Look, others are doing it to!"

I have to just laugh at the notion that reptile exporters are somehow leading the way in conservation. This makes no sense. How can people who make their living selling these animals possibly have conservation in mind? Strict conservation efforts would mean the end of their business, why would they support that?

With the amount of reptile businesses over the years who have given out false information on the ranges and population numbers of various species in order to justify their business actions, I highly doubt any of them have any ideals beyond their pocketbook. (let alone conservation)

You can't really choose between whether the animals get the rights to live on the land or the people get that honor. In a competitive behavior someone always looses. It's either they take side of biologists or the people. You need to find an equilibrium where the people can work to help save the animals and in return they get more to eat having other basic needs met. Everyone is happy! The best results come from everyone in the group doing what's best for themselves and the group. You can't leave certain group of people out; everyone is interconnected. When everyone prospers, it benefits the world economies. If you look at all the major economic crisis, it usually starts with one country and then the rest follows. If you look at everything we do, we are all connected. If family members help work together to feed each other and help with medical expenses, everyone benefits both emotionally and physically.

The best results come from everyone in the group doing what's best for themselves and the group. This way nobody get left out.

You have to be realistic,of course this comes down to selfishness of personal wants.But the solution is going to be compromise of many agendas.Ours is not a culture to judge others-we all use the worlds resourses for our selfish means,i'm not going to judge a native from indonesia who makes a living off their resources.We have to start at the there to here of monitor exportation-they must be caught, kept and shipped humanely.This is something the governments/ exporters can have some control over.

I do want to clarify that I wasn't in any way intending to judge the native people of these regions for collecting these animals for food or selling to exporters. I understand that for many people in these regions this is an issue of survival.

I was criticizing the people here in the US who use the native people's actions as justification for their own selfishness. I was referring to the mindset that somehow our own actions are mitigated by the fact that the natives collect them in the first place.

We the consumers are entirely to blame in this matter. We don't control how they are caught or collected. We do, however, control the fact that there is a market for these animals. If we don't buy these animals, there is no business for the exporters there or importers here. It's really up to the people here to send the message that we don't want these regions damaged just so we can keep these animals in fishtanks here.

But judging by the attitudes exhibited on this thread, I don't see that happening. The majority on this thread seem far more interested in their "freedom" to keep these species than the damage being done to the wild populations.

"We the consumers are entirely to blame in this matter. We don't control how they are caught or collected. We do, however, control the fact that there is a market for these animals. If we don't buy these animals, there is no business for the exporters there or importers here. It's really up to the people here to send the message that we don't want these regions damaged just so we can keep these animals in fishtanks here.

But judging by the attitudes exhibited on this thread, I don't see that happening. The majority on this thread seem far more interested in their "freedom" to keep these species than the damage being done to the wild populations."

Exactly - if we take a stance to stop buying wild collected lizards, then the importers who are stuck with them not selling will be hesitant to re-import and eventually the exporters won't have avenues to get rid of them and tell the collectors not to bring them in any more.

But this can only be established if folks are captive breeding these animals in our own collections and removing the "need" to bring in imports. This is my line of thinking and agreeing with the quote above. Unfortunately, most folks with these lizards are in the dark ages of husbandry and are not going to breed these lizards.

If we are going to leave the plight of imported to monitors to the few who resist buying inexpensive wild caught-that's just not realistic.To pressure where shops get their supply of wild caught animals would be easier-than expecting 16yr old Jimmy to do the right thing and not buy that $45 Nile Monitor.There are fewer suppliers than consumers i would think that's a better place to start,and definately not the answer that would make everybody happy.Healthier animals to consumers who might not know what they are doing is not a solution just a start.

I think that part of the problem is also that most consumers don't even know that they are WC. I don't think we need additional governmental regulation to punish those people who call farm hatched CB, we need public awareness.

I would bet if the average consumer knew that these animals were not captive bred and were mass imports that would reduce demand in itself, because lots of people "think" their animals were captive bred.
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I should have had enough experience of this forum to expect little more than personal insults and garbage in response to anything I post, but it always comes as a bit of an unpleasant surprise to read it, and a real chore to have to defend myself publicly when I have so many much more exciting things to do. So this really will be my last posting ever on this sorry sorry forum.

Right Daniel, you try pushing your personal agenda and when you get confronted you go right into all the typical games, when that strategy fails , you play the martyr then go run. fair enough, But you still had to try and play one last game on this sorry sorry forum.

Lets look how Daniel tries to twist my words , Bad form Danny.

Ernie says that members of the prasinus and indicus complex "have extensive ranges and are common animals" , that spinulosus will likely be reclassified as "Varanus indicus"

What I really said was,

Spinulosus is a common lizard that has only been "documented" from a few locations but its very likely that it occurs in others places. The bottom line is the pet trade will never cause the demise of these lizards.

Who knows some taxonomist might come along and reclassifie this "species " as indicus. Then what would the range be? You included indicus on your list of monitors with tiny little island populations that are raided for the pet trade. What would you estimate the total population of indicus to be?

Danny says that I siad that reptile exporters are at the forefront of both the scientific study and conservation of monitor lizards. But what I really siad was.

Biologist often turn to importers /exporters and work with them to gain information about where certain animals are found, how they are found, their numbers etc. Importers /exporters have been responsible for the discovery "new" species and providing a great deal of information to science. Including information about indigenous wildlife and how this wildlife interacts and is used by the local people.

The importers /exporters are always the people most willing to work with wildlife authorities and biologist to look for viable ways to maintain a healthy balance between nature and sustainable usage. To protect natural habitats. TRUE conservation!

Daniels statement and what I really said are hardly the same thing. Daniels version is once again an intentional and Id say pretty sneaky attempt to twist things a bit to make himself look good. Again he shows himself for who he is.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Encouraging people to keep there captives in suitable habitats in the hope that there set-ups & interest in the hobby will lead to monitor offspring should be the primary concern of every experience monitor keeper/scientist.

Banning imports would just drive the hobby underground & we'd go back to the old days, sharing knowledge promotes better husbandry long term'

In the last 5 years we've seen an increase in positives & negatives, more gravid females /hatchlings, on the negative side more deaths record in the public.

As crazy as it sounds an increase in record deaths on public forums in my books is an success, people are sharing were they screwed up their captives life, possible keepers are deciding against getting a captive because of people sharing their experiences.

I've lost two of mine in the past as many of you know & i make sure as many people know this so they understand there's more to their captives than meets the eye.

knowledge is the key to success what better way to share than the internet.