Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This came out decent, still having troubles with getting the close ups to not blurry. Figured some of you would like to see this one however as it turned out alright and isn't really that panned out of a view..

This is still a BEL as is the Super Mystic and Mystic Potions. I saw a recent post where someone was saying these weren't BEL's but that is incorrect. These are BEL's just not white ones. Genetically like a Super Lesser or Lesser Mojave, or Russo Lesser, etc etc.. these are also allele created meaning they don't make normals when bred to a normal (either one gene or the other is passed on or in the case of a Super Mystic obviously that only can throw the Mystic gene). A Potion can't make more Potions when bred to a Normal either , and a Mystic Crystal can't make more Mystic Crystals bred to normals either, you breed back to BEL stuff to remake the designers.

Anyway thanks for checking it out!
Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

Anthony,
Just wondering how you are coming to the conclusion that these are leucistic? They do not fit the description of leucism to any affect, that I can see. I do know that Pieds are actually leucistic but aren't associated as such. Homo fires fit it more accurately than others of the known BEL's.

Guess my answer is that they are as much of a Leucistic as a Super Mojave is! The Potions , Super Mystic, Mystic Crystal etc aren't white no but they are alleles of the other members of the complex so to me logic would say that a Super made with the Mystics (even with color) and another member of the complex is still a BEL member, if it was not it couldn't make a genetic Super form!

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

hmm,
While there is a connection to the BEL complex I don't necessarily think that they are leucistic. I wish more research would be done on ball python genes. Too much is not known and is speculated on. Not to mention that most of the genetic information that is "known" is wrong. Well not really wrong but is made in-accurate so as to make it easier to relate too.

Sorry I did forget to mention that that Ball is very nice looking! Congrats on such a nice job and looking forward to what else will come along in the future.

The POINT is that the allele is on the same gene loci as all the BEL genes. Whether or not ANY of them are actually scientifically leucistic can be debated, but not really the point Anthony was trying make.

Why thank you for clarifying what Mr. McCain was saying. I think that I do know and understand what the POINT was. He seams to be quite articulate and I know that he has been around for some time. He has made a name for himself in the community.

Anywho, Thanks McCain for your thoughts on the matter

I fully agree with you that those snakes (Super mystics, Super mojos, and their combos) don't fit the complex of definitions I know for "leucistic". The problem is that the term is ill defined for all snakes, not just BPs. There are both scientific and herpetoculture groups that define leucism as reduced pigment, only patches of pigment (piebald), only patches of white (similar to a calico), etc.

So I also agree that some genetics work needs to be done. In most mammals the term leucistic would refer to an animal that has a genetic inability to produce one of the pigment precursers, resulting in an all white, black eyed animal. I guess in Ball Pythons if that same precurser was needed for the eye pigment, then you could have blue eyed leucistics as well.

And it is complicated by the fact that snakes have three different pigment cells, whereas most mammals only have one (melanocytes). So there is even greater potential for a variety of genetic problems.

To sum it up I guess I would say: If we aren't going to call Anthony's snakes leucistics... what should we call them? His logic is sound, especially given how little we know about what causes our funny looking snakes. Any suggestions?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

BEPL's Blue Eyed Pigmented Leucistic's.. If it really needs a name to less confuse things! You would also then have to include the original Crystal stuff too (Special Mojave)as these aren't true white either.. Just stating facts , isn't a big deal to add the P in there if it makes more sense to people that way... Still those genes all are Blue Eyed allele members any way you slice it! That is proven !

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

anthony, the problem with your position on this is that leucistic animals by definition need to have either localized or complete absence of pigmentation not just altered pigmentation. While the animals in question by our understanding have mutations on the same allele as the white/pied leucistic animals, they are not the same mutation by any means. To use the term patterned leucistic is as much as an oxymoron as the old corn snake term of black albino. You can have complete or incomplete (solid white or pied) leucistics but you must have areas of NO pigment in order to have a leucistic by definition.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Wow Anthony that little guy is smokin!!

>>This came out decent, still having troubles with getting the close ups to not blurry. Figured some of you would like to see this one however as it turned out alright and isn't really that panned out of a view..
>>
>>This is still a BEL as is the Super Mystic and Mystic Potions. I saw a recent post where someone was saying these weren't BEL's but that is incorrect. These are BEL's just not white ones. Genetically like a Super Lesser or Lesser Mojave, or Russo Lesser, etc etc.. these are also allele created meaning they don't make normals when bred to a normal (either one gene or the other is passed on or in the case of a Super Mystic obviously that only can throw the Mystic gene). A Potion can't make more Potions when bred to a Normal either , and a Mystic Crystal can't make more Mystic Crystals bred to normals either, you breed back to BEL stuff to remake the designers.
>>
>>Anyway thanks for checking it out!
>>Anthony McCain
>>McCain Reptiles
>>

Very Nice Anthony! I'm really impressed with how it turned out!

One of the nicest morphs produced in the BEL complex IMO and my favorite Crystal to date!

Nice Work!
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Best regards,
Alan Cole

Wow Anthony, that looks GREAT even with your crappy photos (sorry buddy)

Seriously though, I'm loving the special/ crystal gene and combos it throws out. IMO its the most exciting mutant gene around and I would choose it over a banana or champagne any day. Marshall had an outstanding super-special at NARBC Houston, which I thought was the best looking snake at the show. Once you start to add Enchi/ YB/ Fire or Vanilla, etc into the mix, expect some killer new combos.

What we need now are some great photos !! (calling Aaron Jones ...)

cheers, John
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John Berry
New Designer Morphs - Ball pythons and Boa constrictors - out now
www.bigreptileworld.com
www.johnberryreptiles.com

First off, that mystic crystal is smokin dude! grats!

What would be the outcome of pairing a mystic X super mojave?

Thanks in advance for the response

Mystic potions and Mojaves

Bill J.

Thanks, someone told me a mystic X super mojave would also produce more BEL since in the same complex, any truth to that?

Super Mojave x Mystic will make half clutch in theory Potion and half clutch in theory of regular Mojave.. No Mystics produced as each Mystic would actually be a Potion and no regular Mystics possible either.. No Super Mojave can be made this way either. I will likely confuse some of you here but I did make a snake that visually looks most like a Super Mojave but genetically it's a Mystic Potion (dad Mystic and Mom Mojave) the deal here is I believe there is another gene involved that knocked out the pigment so it's actually a triple codom not just a double codom, once he's bred out I will know for sure but I'm betting that's the case as the Mojave was a virgin female and the Mystic is proven to make Potions that look classic as well. That just goes to show the fine line between Mystic and Mojave genetically speaking as it doesn't appear to take much to push the look back towards white when another gene (unknown type so far) is added to the Potion. Still seems that Mystics are still a little different than Phantoms in some slight ways as well as the Phantom Potions tend to be darker looking than the Mystic Potions thus far. In the end the Mystic will likely prove out to be like comparing a Black Pastel to a Cinnamon or a Sable to a Chocolate, meaning similiar results with similiar effects and same alleles but still slightly different nonetheless!

Clear as mud to some of you now right, lol ! Really quite simple!

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

I clearly understand your point on all these crosses being in the BEL complex but I think there needs to be a new name for it as everyone is getting confused and offended by you using BEL to describe this combo. I too agree with you as I have seen dark Super Mojave where you can see pattern and it just looked like a lighter Mystic Potion. Phantom X Lesser makes a white BEL, so what happens when a Mystic is crossed to a Lesser? Will the same thing happen? Also, what happens when a Mystic is crossed with Phantom? Will it be a white BEL or will it be a visual one? Great combo by the way!!! Thanks for sharing!

Steven

Lesser x Mystic would look basically the same as a Karma . Mystic x Phantom will result in a snake that resembles Super Phantom, Super Mystic or something in betweeen as they are very similiar in their Super forms (be like breeding a Chocolate to a Sable and making a Super or like Cinny x Blk Pastel and making a Super)..

Guess it isn't a big deal to me what people want to call them. Same argument could be said for the Whirlwind/Specter, and Het Puma actually. Those are alleles to Yb's but odds are the Supers of those genes (assuming codom obviously) won't be Ivory looking either so what do you call them , another complex needing to be listed there too? Same deal would apply, alleles (Yb, Specter, Het Puma) YET not visually the same visual phenotypes either! Currently we group them into the same complex , is this correct to do???

Something to think about for those into details !
I'll just keep working the project and you guys can worry about the naming specifics!

Anthony McCain
McCain

Exactly! If you understand the genetics, why whine about naming specifics? It's all genetic complexes! People whine and confuse themselves about names way too much IMO.

Great projects as usual Anthony!
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Best regards,
Alan Cole

Hey Anthony can you please post a picture of a Super Mystic? I know they are a little darker than a potion but I would like to see a comparison with size. Thanks.

Steven

>>Hey Anthony can you please post a picture of a Super Mystic? I know they are a little darker than a potion but I would like to see a comparison with size. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>Steven

You have mail
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Best regards,
Alan Cole

That is one amazing animal! Definitely looking forward to seeing more pics of it in the future!
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Russell Lawson
www.russreptiles.com

Still working on this camera thing John, some days are better than others lol ! Thanks for the other replies as well folks!

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

Anthony I think we have 2 very different ideas as to what a "decent" picture is...