Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have ads running in the classifieds here on kingsnake. Those ads generate interest from people who know practically nothing about Rainbow Boas. The lower the prices the more rediculous the questions. I am not sure what it is that causes so many people to look at the ads and so few to visit this forum and actually LEARN about the snakes. The problem is not just here on kingsnake.com. Aubrey posted a link to one of her videos on Youtube. I watched it and then looked at some of the other Brazilian Rainbow videos posted on Youtube. I was amazed at how many people either posting videos or comments to them know so little about these snakes. I believe that we should be educating people about Rainbow Boas but that the task is just too large.
Snakes are great, people suck.

I hear ya Jeff, seems like I spend a huge portion of my online time answering the same questions only to have to go back and re-iterate the same answer to the same person. But some are learning. Can't even begin to tell you how many times I've had to correct false info from a pet store including "reptile stores".
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Definitely know what you mean. I saw a guy claim his rainbow boa was a "white-wall" and he couldn't wait for eggs to prove it out!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Why is it that people who know little about reptiles and even less about business think they should open a reptile store? Most of them do not last long.

You might get down on the individuals that you haven't reached yet. But you might also want to reflect on the people you have. I have been keeping in touch with this forum over the last six months or so. I havent had much to add but really appreciate all the information that you do share. Some of us are learmning.. and what a great thing that is. - Andy

I don't own a BRB yet, I hope to as of tomorrow (reptile show). But, this goes with ALL reptiles, not just rainbows, not just snakes.

Yes, I occasionally make fun of the absolutely stupid questions I get asked. I think my favorite is, "Do you have to cut up their food or do they eat it whole?"

But I remember that people are uneducated when it comes to snakes. They only think about the dangers of venomous snakes, they don't think about the good that they do.

I don't mind stopping and answering questions. With every 'stupid' question I answer, I might be making someone think before they condemn. Who knows, I might be making another snake fan.

So yes, while we want to make fun of them, we have to remember that its up to those of us that know to set the record straight, without being a butthole about it, and help save our hobby.

Openly making fun of people that ask silly questions is mean and dangerous to those of us that enjoy keeping snakes. At least they had the curiosity and guts to ask the stupid question.

Over the years, I have asked my own stupid questions, and have been ridiculed. And it doesn't help the cause.

Well said.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

I mostly agree with you. I used to do lots of reptile programs. Schools, library summer reading programs, reptile clubs, state parks, reptile shows, malls and even dog shows, anywhere they were doing something animal related I was there trying to educate people about reptiles. Looking at the good Rainbow Boa information in care sheets around the net I see that many of them include information copied verbatem from my old website. I think I do my share. OTOH, people who go window shopping in the classifieds and ask "can I breed it to my Ball Python?" piss me off. Before getting any animal the potential buyer should do lots of research and classifed ads are one of the very worst places to do that research. Rant over.

Your activities and efforts for the cause are commendable. And you are correct. A person should do research on anything that they buy, not just snakes. And when someone comes up to you and asks stupid questions (the guy that told me he knew his ball was a female because she laid an egg, and when he showed me the 'egg' it was urate) you do nothing but hope they'll stay out of the hobby.

I'm not saying that everyone should go as far as you did, classes and such. I'm just saying we should hold all of our fun making until the person is gone, and be willing to take ten or fifteen minutes to explain snakes, to answer all of those stupid questions.

Yes, when I see videos on youtube (which I have stopped watching because of all of the morons), I get annoyed and just want to email them and ask, you're sh*tting me, right? Do you even know what a snake is?

When I saw the title of the post I was 'What? and its Jeff Asking?' Then I read the post and realized he wasn't asking the question himself LOL

The sad thing about the world we live in, is its in an 'instant gratification consumer market'. People don't want to take a moment to think about anything or research, they are pretty much 'see it, buy it. Think much later about it.'

I had one person respond to my classified she wanted to buy a snake for her 5 year old. She just said she wanted a snake so next day the mother was trying to find a snake to buy...which already tells me she has no clue about the care....and I pretty much told her a 5 year old is too young to be the care giver of a snake or any animal...unless she fully intends to be the primary care giver and gets all the necessary research, and any interaction with the snake is supervised by a parent or older sibling. I never heard from her again...and I rather not sell one of my reptiles than have it go to somebody who is buying it for a 5 year old but doesn't have any intention to care for it 95% of the time.

Its one thing to have a pet and care for it with your young children...especially when they are under 10 years old. Kids get distracted easily, have short attention spans etc...so they may be focused on handling the snake then hear the start of their favorite show, or dad arrives..and the snake gets forgotten...on the chair. and thus escapes or ends up somewhere dangerous to its health.

I do believe people have to take more time before buying any pet, whether its a dog or a snake and do research. Heck even fish need to be researched properly. So many think its all just toss into a tank, with filter, feed once a day and change the water once in awhile (if this even gets done). Seen plenty of algae covered tanks in doctor's offices and people's homes. When I had a fresh water tank, I rarely had any algae in it...only time I typically had an outbreak is if i put in something in the water for the aquatic plants..which I only did once...as all it did was make algae grow and the plants died anyway. That and many pet stores just have a bunch of fish tossed into the tanks..some fish which don't do well in a community.

I read about every pet I ever owned... I read about cat breeds and care time to time, same with dogs (really liking the Cesar Millan books...first person who treats dogs like the way I always felt they should be treated...and understands what I have always felt was the cause for so many dogs being aggressive barking little terrors...(oddly enough rarely had any troubles with the 'danger' breeds (ie rotties, pit pulls etc)Its always been the small dogs that seem so wild and vicious). As with many reptiles, number one reason dogs and cats are returned to shelters, abandoned etc..is because owners got more than they expected, didn't know how to handle/train the dog and just couldn't keep it. IF they did research on the breeds etc...they would have known Jack Russell Terriers are a high energy breed that can destroy your house if they don't have any proper outlet for all their energy. (like keeping a hyperactive child in a 10 square room with nothing but furniture...that kid would destroy everything in a day too...)

Then there is animals that are in popular shows or movies. Kids want that animal as a pet..and parents just buy it, without making any efforts in learning about the animal. Jack Russel Terriers were used in a few shows. Fishbone was a children's series with one...not sure if its still on or not. Well, Harry Potter sparked interest in owning owls (maybe rats too, for those who liked Scabbers). Its fine having some of these animals as pets..but many are not suitable for most if not all households. Birds of Prey are definitely not a typical family pet. Not to mention they can be very dangerous. Rats are good pets, but again, you do need to do research on them. Safe bedding to use, cage size, the fact they are social..how to sex them (I wouldn't trust a pet shop employee to sex them..even if boy rats are as obvious as human boys.)

I am all for educating and encouraging people to research. In a way I think its a great loss not only for the animal who's going to suffer under improper care but for personal discovery and knowledge as well. I find it fascinating to learn more about care and history of an animal...and how it survivals not only in captivity but in the wild. In a way researching and learning more about animals and their care..I have found more insights in human health and nutrition.

It isn't nice to make fun of people who ask silly questions in general...and definitely not to their face...but having a laugh at the questions themselves (and not just the individual people who honestly just want to know, as we are all learning and we all start somewhere) is fine...As long as we try not to laugh at the individuals who just don't know.

I am sure anybody who talks about reptiles to others who know nothing about reptiles..will get alot of the same questions 'Aren't they poisonous? Slimy? Does it bite? etc. However for every person we answer those questions for...there is one less person who doesn't know the answer. And hopefully that person will tell somebody else that no, not all snakes are poisonous, they are not slimy etc. Remember that one of the greatest gifts Humans have is our sense of curiosity.

Feed other people's curiosity and stave the fear..and you will have more people willing to sit down at a computer to do an extra bit of research before running to a pet store to buy a new pet and maybe, they will go for the calm easy to care for corn snake or rainbow boa, instead of the cheap $20 Burmese or Reticulated python or green iguana...thinking it will be fine in the 20 gallon tank/reptile kit the store employee assures them will be fine for the life of the reptile..
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

This is a world wide problem.

Would you all be interested (especially you jeff since ya dont have a site) to create a basic rainbow manual from the forum, by the forum and for the forum and we will post it here?
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I recently started a list of frequently asked Brazilian Rainbow Boa questions and answers. If any of you would like to take a look at it, I'd love your input.

Here is the link:
Brazilian Rainbow Boa FAQ

I discuss topics such as the differences between live, fresh killed, and frozen thawed, housing and care requirements, and other general information. Also, I came up with a way of determining prey size other than looking at the thickest part of the snake's body. After reviewing my feeding records, I came up with a method based off the snake's weight.

For example:

It is common for people to recommend feeding a food item no larger than the thickest part of the snake’s body. However, a more specific guideline is to feed your snake a rodent that weighs approximately 13% as much as the snake. For example, a 38 gram Baby Brazilian Rainbow Boa should eat a 5 gram Fuzzy Mouse or Pinky Rat. A 385 gram Juvenile Brazilian Rainbow Boa should eat a 50 gram Small Rat or two 25 gram Adult Mice. This doesn’t have to be exact, and your snake can eat food slightly larger or smaller.

When I get a chance I'm going to create a chart with the common weight range from Pinkies to Adult rodents. I'd love to hear what you all think, and get comments on my FAQ. It's still a work in progress, but I'm attempting to make it a comprehensive list within the next month.

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Paul D

www.MoonlightBoas.com

Cool... looks like you put a lot of work into this! Nice job!

My only disagreement is this line:

How big do Brazilian Rainbow Boas get?

Brazilian Rainbow Boas typically grow between 5-7 feet long with females being larger than males.

I have found that males can get just as big as the biggest females I have had (pretty darn big). I think often times females are larger because breeders feed them more for larger healthier litters.
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Thanks Aubrey, I'll have to adjust the wording on that one. There is a lot I'd like to add to the BRB FAQ. My goal is to compile the answers to any reasonable questions someone could have about Brazilian Rainbow Boas, and put it in a format that's easy to understand.

If anyone can think of questions I should add, I would be happy to have the input.

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Paul D

www.MoonlightBoas.com

Nice job, Paul. Looks really good, hopefully it will save some rainbow boas from less-than-optimal conditions. The only minor suggestions I have is that maybe glass aquariums/fish tanks should be discouraged a little more strongly.

Again, great work.

Thanks,
Ed

If Brazilians get the Pink/Salmon corol on the belly prior to shedding i would mention that (my Colombian does), also would mention the whitewall color change. Both are a little odd and it took a while to find the answers.
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OGFSnakes
0.1 CRB (Alice)
1.0 Corn Snake (George)

I think we have been expectantly waiting for Jeff to start a new website for that reason, I would welcome a one stop shopping site for Rainbow Boa facts. I also am new to Rainbows (and snakes in general) there just isn’t an easy way to get info without asking questions. I would also suggest someone starting/editing the Wikipedia pages on rainbows (this would be the easiest way to get info to people), I started the Colombian page (I know I have to fix a few things) because I was frustrated that I could hardly find anything. Even this site has room for improvement since you could rename it the BRB forum, there just isn’t a lot of discussion on the other species.
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OGFSnakes
0.1 CRB (Alice)
1.0 Corn Snake (George)

"Even this site has room for improvement since you could rename it the BRB forum, there just isn’t a lot of discussion on the other species."

Not sure I'm following. Why would excluding other Epicrates species/subspecies be an improvement? IMO, that could only decrease forum participation.

It should be the Epicrates forum. Like that would work. Can I breed it to my Ball Python, what is an Epicrates? Perhaps Rainbow and Carribean Boas would work?

"Perhaps Rainbow and Carribean Boas would work?"

Not a bad idea, Jeff, I think the term "Rainbow boa" means different things to different people. Of course, you will still get questions like, "Can I breed my reticulated python to a Caribbean boa?"

Seriously, if there is enough interest now, maybe we can revisit the idea of creating the Rainbow Boa web page to go along with my insular Epicrates website that's been under construction for two years now.

I don't know how hard this would be, or if this is something everyone would even have interest in, but....... your reply, and the discussion on a "proper" name for the forum, got me wondering about this.

Has anyone on here ever seen the corallus forums, amazon alliance, or any such similar species-specific online forums? I am just curious if anyone on here has ever considered starting something similar for the epicrates genus?? I could see how this would not only benefit our BRB etc hobby as a whole, but it might also help some of you breeders out as well.

I dunno, this is all just food for thought, and I'm not 100% sure this would work, but it seems like it might be a fun idea......

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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

Well, not a full blown forum dedicated to rainbows, but I teamed up with the owners of another forum to expand and include categories for Epicrates (and a few other genera.) If anyone is interested, just PM me. I'm kind of neutral on the idea of a dedicated forum. It would be a neat project, but at the same time I'm not so sure people aren't forum'ed out with all the existing ones.

Another idea is to create a Facebook page. That doesn't seem to be quite as much work as starting a new forum. I could create one if there is enough interest.

Thanks,
Ed

Hey, thanks for the info. Its too bad your previous idea didn't work out, but I do like the facebook page idea. That would definitely be something easy to create and I'm sure would create lots of rainbow buzz/hits on facebook.

If this is something you think you might want to work on, I would be happy to split up the work or something with you or atleast contribute whatever I can to the page. If you are interested, just send me a PM or reply through here.
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

Ike,
....There have several different forums dedicated to Rainbow Boas. On one of them we had a nice group of the same people who were also posting here posting back and forth. That forum and most of the others eventually fail. The problem, at least as I see it is that no other forum can generate the new traffic that helps this forum to continue on. Kingsnake.com is the biggest because it is the biggest. No matter how great we think these snakes are there are people reading and posting here now who will eventually lose interest, either in the snakes or talking about them and move on. You need new people coming in to replace people as they leave or a forum will not last. Kingsnake.com is big enough to keep bringing in new people and so it continues where other snake related websites have failed.
Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for the info and that does all make sense. You have a very good point on the fact that new people are the key to keeping this forum alive and kicking. I also think that although there is a pretty good base of poeple on here, it makes sense that it would be hard if not impossible to replicate this elsewhere. Sounds like you've got it figured out when you said that although we LOVE rainbow boas/epicrates in general, not every single person is as obsessed/dedicated to them for the long-term.
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

Sorry, I ment SubSpecies. I love our current forum, it is just that there are very few posts for rainbows other than Brazilians, once in a rare while there is a colombian or a peruvian post.
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OGFSnakes
0.1 CRB (Alice)
1.0 Corn Snake (George)

>>Sorry, I ment SubSpecies. I love our current forum, it is just that there are very few posts for rainbows other than Brazilians, once in a rare while there is a colombian or a peruvian post.

I've done my best to try to change that.

E. subflavus (female, "orange phase" )

E. alvarezi (or E. c. alvarezi)

E. subflavus (male)

2 more Species/Subspecies to put on the wish list... if i ever fall into money i am going to end up with one or two of everything...
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OGFSnakes
0.1 CRB (Alice)
1.0 Corn Snake (George)

As a neophyte to reptile keeping, I feel that I experience both sides of this issue.

On the one hand, I certainly try to do my research into the care, habitat, habits, temperament, etc of my animals (and prospective future animals). I recently acquired my first reptile, a ball python, as a gift from my girlfriend, and I must admit I absolutely loathe hearing people tell me that I need to watch out for her "fangs" and that she is "poisonous." If I hear one more person tell me that a "friend's friend" had a snake stretch out beside her while she was sleeping so the snake could measure her up as a potential meal, things might get violent.

On the other hand, an outdated fear of reptiles, the lack of early and continuing education about and exposure to reptiles, and the fact that there isn't all that much definitive information out there on the care of snakes and other reptiles makes it hard for someone who is passably interested in the topic. For many types of snakes, there aren't that many resources on the web about the care of that particular species. Often, the information in one care sheet will contradict that in an other, and when there are only two or three such sheets available, determining enclosure parameters, e.g. humidity, is difficult. Recently, I read a debate on appropriate winter temperatures for snakes (jungle carpets, I believe) that got pretty heated. One guy even threatened to call the humane society on someone else, and this was on Kingsnake, among people who would probably be considered experts in another community.

While I do not defend people who ask ridiculous questions in an attempt to reinforce their own stereotypes or as a result of intellectual laziness, I do think it's important to note that even for those of us who take a very active interest in the topic, joining the reptile community can be very intimidating. I am now trying to make a decision about which snake I'd like to get next, and it's very hard for me to find a ton of information I can trust completely.

All of this to say: Personally, I would find a trustworthy manual for RBs to be immeasurably helpful .

Sorry for the length, this got a bit out of hand for a first post.

Gabe

It's funny you bring this up Jeff, some friends and I have been talking about the ridiculous people that come out of the wood work when we use classified adds. If the price is high on the animal then the intelligence level seems to go up. But boy, mark the animal down to try and make a quick sale, and the email chowderheads, nincompoops, and knucklehead questions come flying in.

-Dell

WOW, that is an awesome picture!!! I think we should create an official petition to have the rainbow boa forum's picture replaced with that one!!!!!

Can you give me an tips/hints for taking one like this myself? Also, what type of camera do you use? Again, that is an awesome picture!!!

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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

Nice pics

I think its a great idea about changing the forum 'mascot' pictures. How about suggesting it the forum coordinator (can contact via the 'contact us' page for suggestions. Might be a good idea to initiate a yearly photo contest with the winner's picture getting to be the forum 'mascot' for a year.

Too much work to do this for all the forums but some of the most popular ones should do it...
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

Hey thanks for the suggestion, I did just now suggest the idea to the forum coordinator. Thanks and I hope this will happen. As much as I enjoy the current forum icon, I just think something new would be an added bonus to our little forum!!!
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

Well, thank you Ike. I personally really like the Rainbow forums photo quite a bit. I love all the iridescence the photographer caught in that photo.

I shoot on a Canon Rebel XTi w/ the stock lens that came w/ the camera. I shot the Epicrates in a white box w/ four lights shining into and through the fabric of the box. The flash on the Canon had a defuser on it too.
This may sound like a lot of set up, but really is quite easy to do once you acquire the white box. Which is cheap to buy, then it's only a matter of choosing the right white balance and setting you'd like to use on the camera.
Thanks again for the complement.

-Dell

Hey, thanks for the quick response and for letting me in on your photo setup. Is there any way that you could post a picture of your actual setup for photos. I am just curious about what type of lights you use, how far away you keep them from the box and what the actual box you are using is. Sorry for all of the questions but as you can tell I REALLY do like your photo style and would like to attempt to replicate it myself. Thanks in advance
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)
1.1 100% het hypo BRB (Diego & Rusheena) -Diego is here already, Rusheena's still on hold!!!

One of the best BRB photos ever!!!!

This indeed a neat picture! Love the lighting.

reminds me of a couple I took a long time ago, though the lighting isn't quite as nice as yours.

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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com