Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Looks like I'm eating some words
virgin birth of boas

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Very interesting Tony!

I have read some similar strange things in some other posts by a very well-known boa breeder recently.

Nature is truly bizarre, and stranger than any made-up fiction could EVER BE!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony, I'd have to do alot more research into this before I believed any of it. The guy writing the article had 1-2 obvious screw ups in there, and its obvious that this wasnt done in a vaccuum....Why were these births questioned if there were males present? "Virgin birth" with the presence of males, but not without them?? Only half the moms DNA?? Where did the other half come from?? Too many obvious and open ended questions of a breeding done in a non-scientific manner for me out of the gate. A female-only litter doesnt incline such a study, and I dont know which genetic trait they are talking about so other genetics could be compared. I'd really have to scrutinize who collected and analyzed the data as well, sounds like they had some kind of bias from the beginning doesnt it??

...be sayin' a human had a virgin birth or somethin'.....
Probably be all over the news by late December...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

"This female has given birth to sexually produced babies in the past, "

So apparently with this she is NOT a virgin. Did they compare the DNA of males she mated with prior to this? Retained sperm anyone?
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/10/21/rsbl.2010.0793.abstract
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I read the original "abstract" and shouting at me to do so will not change my natural sceptical nature. The research contends that through what data they did collect it supports ONE of 3 possible hypotheses. This does not mean it proves anything only that it supports this hypothesis. Obvioulsy from reading the "abstract" more research is still to be done.

Scientists are well known for skewing information to support hypotheses.

If you prefer to believe this with the little information available please feel free to do so.

The data on me is I'm a sceptic and a cynic by nature and I require more proof over hypotheses.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Why not spend another 10 minutes and click on the FREE pdf of the entire paper. Then you would not ask dumb question.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

we could have a discussion of the actual paper and not some dumbed down journalist version of heresay.

So anyone what to actually discuss the paper and the data? sheesh you can take a horse to water, but you cannot.....how does it go?

My goodness as a society we are so screwed!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

But really it is the problem with everything. The journalist was dumb, and half of what was being discussed revolved around that, and the other half was answered in the paper. This paper is really worth discussing here, and it really is too bad that people don't investigate on their own a little further.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>But really it is the problem with everything. The journalist was dumb, and half of what was being discussed revolved around that, and the other half was answered in the paper. This paper is really worth discussing here, and it really is too bad that people don't investigate on their own a little further.
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>>"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I read the link you posted and it didn't say much more than the original post?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

You have to click on the free PDF file link to get the full paper.
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If I couldn't figure that out how much chance do I have to understand the paper, lol. just kidding, I'll give it a look.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I agree but I don't care who you are that there home brew comment was funny!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Apparently you are the only one who is smart here. Everyone who requires more proof of parthogenisis and questions the hypotheses in this paper are "dumb." This leaves no room for discussion as you've made your conclucions and are accepting these hypotheses as scientific proof.

Claiming "virgin" births with a female who they clearly state has had 2 previous clutches by sexual reproduction then she is no longer a "virgin" by anyone's definition of the term.

This does not entirely rule out the possibility of parthogenisis but more research has to be done to prove this hypothesis.

Referring to posters who contradict you as "dumb" is patently offensive and ends all discussions with you.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

geesus fellers A virgin birth can refer simply to Parthenogenesis, or birth without fertilization
lol

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>"This female has given birth to sexually produced babies in the past, "
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>>So apparently with this she is NOT a virgin. Did they compare the DNA of males she mated with prior to this? Retained sperm anyone?
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Occam's razor. Well done.

They compare loci placement...
"The probability of a zygote receiving identical alleles at a given locus from each heterozygous parent is p = 0.25. Across the four maternally heterozygous loci, the probability of an individual receiving identical alleles is p = 0.0039 (i.e. (0.25)4). The probability of all individuals within each litter receiving identical alleles across the four loci is: litter 1–p = 1.238 × 10−29 (i.e. (0.0039)12), and litter 2–p = 8.14 × 10−25 (i.e. (0.0039)10). Combined, this gives an overall probability of p = 1.008 × 10−53 (i.e. (0.0039)22). Due to this infinitesimally small probability, in the absence of DNA sample from the sire of the 2004 litter, hypothesis 2 (i.e. sexual reproduction) can be rejected." They jam this at us, yet I would have to see who actually did the genetics....because something smells too closely to HOME BREW. Achem's razor for sure!! To me the likelihood of them mucking up the gene work is greater than the likelihood of a "virgin birth", I'm a skeptic.

What jamming? Its just math.

They build a circumstancial case that is pretty strong based on 1) all the offspring being female (as one would expected if parthenogenetic), 2) that all the offspring were carmel which is unlikely since none of the sires were known to be or likely to be het for carmel, and 3) that the offspring carried none of the alleles of 3/4 of the potential sires. Obviously, they did not genetically test sire 4, so it comes down to math.

All of the offspring were homozygous for either one or the other of the females heterozygous alleles and all of the offspring were homozygous for the alleles the mother was homozygous for. That could only happen if potential sire 4 was homozygous for the same alleles as the mother is homozygous for AND if his alleles sorted into the offspring the same way as the maternal alleles to ensure that all the offspring were homozygous (in other words did not get one allele from mom and another from dad to be hets).

Thats where the math comes in. If these snakes were NOT the results of parthenogenesis then what is the probability of observing the pattern given they were sired by male 4? That is the math you show, which is pretty basic statistics, nothing funny about it at all. They find there is a 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance that the offspring were actually sired by male 4 and just happened to be differentially homozygous.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I think it says they gaot half of the mothers DNA and another copy of the same DNA to complete it. But I am very skeptical also. If the female had been documented to be without any males ever, then I might be more convinced. But if she needed a male for whatever reason, then is that truely Virgin birth?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I'm not saying I believe one way or another but as to your question, why were these births questioned in the first place if there were males present, the article answers that. They questioned the birth because all the babies were carmels, the mom was a carmel and none of the males were carmel or het for carmel.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

the births were questioned becasue the babies were caramel when the genetics of the fathers did not support that outcome.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Here is the page with the peer reviewed paper that can be accessed free:

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/10/21/rsbl.2010.0793.abstract
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>Here is the page with the peer reviewed paper that can be accessed free:
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>>http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/10/21/rsbl.2010.0793.abstract
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>>"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Awesome. Easy to see who read the paper

Seems a pretty clear case to me
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

HAHA

I can see why people are skeptical ... it's hard to wrap your head around things that aren't conventional.

I for one am convinced it's possible for this reason: In 2007 i bred a Blaze Phase Goini female to a Hypomelanistic Brooksi male.All (with the exception on one) the babies turned out normal looking... one of the babies was an obvious Blaze phase (the snake being kinked i froze it)... the Blaze had never been with another Blaze so there was no chance for there to be "sperm retention"

Simulation of copulation is all it takes in some lizard species so who knows? I don't think these occurrences are as rare/random as we think... we probably just don't notice.

"I don't think these occurrences are as rare/random as we think... we probably just don't notice."

I agree how many times has a clutch hatched for one us that we just can't explain so we chalk it up to sperm retention?

This phenomenon would be most useful when the males are possibly sterile, assuming the act of mating is enough to trigger the female to have young, but that his sperm is not used in the making of those young. This would be very convenient as then it would not be necessary to brumate the males for sperm viability.
Boas have live young, unlike colubrids who lay eggs. So I wonder if parthenogenesis could happen with egg laying snakes as well.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>>>>So I wonder if parthenogenesis could happen with egg laying snakes as well.

yes

The babies should be kept and studied to see if they show any evidence of doing the same as they age. Maybe put some in different control groups. Have some which never come in contact with males and some which do. Since they all are WW, this may help to further understand what is happening.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra