Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a baby ornate monitor that I've had about a month now, and he seems much more interested in playing with his food than eating it. He shows absolutely no interest in anything but crickets, but when i put them in he attacks them, rips all their legs and heads off and then leaves the bodies all over the cage.
I have tried pinkies, mealworms, superworms and canned monitor food, but he ignores everything.
How can I get him to eat without force feeding him? I really dont want an ornate monitor that is terrified of me.

Your baby is probably either dehydrated or the cage conditions are not proper to allow it to digest so it won't eat.

You will never ever have to force feed a healthy monitor in proper conditions, you will have the opposite problem.
any pictures of the animal/enclosure?
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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

I dont have any pictures of the enclosure currently. He is in a 29 gallon tank with about 3/4th of the screen top covered in tarp material to keep the temp/humidity up. He has a giant water dish to soak and swim in on the cool end of the tank (about 75-80 degrees. And a wooden hide box on his hot side that has sand around and under it for him to dig in and a heat lamp above for him to bask.

He spends about 95% of his time either in his water dish and the other 5% basking.
He was a surlrise present, so I am learning as I go and all comments/critisism are welcome. I really want to do right by the little guy

You will want to make a measurement of the basking spot temperature with a non-contact thermometer (heat gun, infrared thermometer). Try to keep the temperature at or above 130 degrees F.

Spending a lot of time in the water dish is almost always a sign of insufficient humidity for a resting spot. In the long term it could lead to chronic organ damage and a drastically shortened lifespan. Check your substrate - a deep, diggable dirt substrate that holds a burrow is a good way to keep the humidity up. Putting some boards or other flat pieces of stuff on the dirt encourages them to start making a burrow at the edges of the board. A stack of boards under the basking lamp is also a good idea.

Good luck!

Luke

You need proper setup and husbandry.

Check out our site, the caresheet and FAQ section.

Get a copy of the Savannah Monitor book by Bennett and Ravi, that is going to be your best start. To SUPPLEMENT that, get the Faust Nile Monitor book as well. But the Sav book is the best source of printed captive monitor husbandry, start there.

Water monitor husbandry is also applicable, so go over that stuff at our site as well, including the article I wrote for Reptiles magazine.

And yes, you will probably come across the anti-Nile FAQ, but that is ok too, you might as well know what you are in for : )

Best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

water is too cold should be in the mid 80s...thats why he dont eat...nils have a strong feeding respons and go after everything...however if it cant digest why eat?

also ask yourself why the monitor spends 90% of its time in the water...thers a reason.
cauls be to escape heat?...or poor hidding options? your job is to find out and make corections.

and last forget about dang books...they teach you to fail...monitors will teach you right.

some peapoles read to many books and spend fortunes on elaborate set-ups and still they fail, so you can follow that route or make your own.

The cage that is all wood with a front glass opening is good. A lot of lizards feel more secured if they can't see all around them, and plus it's a good insulator.

indeed i have plenty of wood cage and wire cages...all are simple tools...knowing how to use them is key.

in a heat regulated reptile room wier cages work fine...they work fine outdoors in the righ climat zone. but a wire cage in a basement or hallway is not a good idea.

I built the corolated plastic cages in my photo abouve...call them thermalcage because the air pockets insulate very well...in them I use one regular 25w bulbs to rais any babies or incubate eggs...this is why I designed them for that job.

simple...safe...cheep and reliable...whatever I keep in them thrives...dont matter what substrate...dont matter if I use hides...temps are good lizards do well. KISS

Jobi any photos of your adult cages i'm starting to plan my adult cage for my 2 subadult bluetails, and would like ideas.So far my plan is to use FRP adhered to plywood-should i use metal horse troughs the largest i can seem to find are 8' x 3' which isn't large enough unless i double them up any thoughts you guys have would be greatly appreciated.I am planning on a base 10' x 4-6',height is still up in the air haha. Moe

I notice that the light is actually inside the enclosure, is this safe for monitors? I know my snakes would have a field day trying to wrap around a lamp and get way too close. Are monitors better at leaving lights alone? My lamp is above a screen top section to prevent him from touching it. Am I overly worried?

With the bulb inside the cage you can use a lower wattage bulb ie 25w which is safer.You just build up to get a basking spot of suitable temp.Placing the bulb on one end of the enclosure and it being of a lower wattage bulb means it heats a smaller area so your monitor has more temp choices.As the monitor grows just add more lights to it's basking spot(s)and larger cage.The wattage of bulb is determined by the room ambient temp.
I would recommend not using screen tops,unless mostly covered, they allow too much airflow.The biggest enemy to a monitors' well being is dehydration.Temp choices limited ventilation/airflow deep dirt substrate multitude of tight hiding spots give monitors choices so they can tell you what they want.

once FR posted about how indians do small fires and sit clooser...white men do large fires and sit far away...we over do it in many eareas.

i try to use this principal with my husbandry

I just try to use the right wattage for the temperature in my house. It varies from region to region. In Northern Europe and Canada it gets really cold, so I can see people wanting to use higher wattage and maybe adding a couple more heat lamps for extra warmth. It's great to have dimmers or thermostat, too, for this purpose. Some of the herbivores I keep don't do so well if the temp drop too low. The low temp kill the friendly microbes inside their stomach which basically break down the food for them, and the food rots inside the guts. It can become a problem if you live somewhere that often gets bone chilling cold. Keeping the room temperature up at reasonable range helps, but the bills do add up. Some people use space heater, so they can just heat up one room

been living in Montreal most my life...it gets prety cold here winters...most pepoles set there house thermostat at 72f to save on hydro...I find this to be a good minimum temp for most reptiles...however I do privide a heat surce for them to use 24-7...but contrary to most keepers id rather provide severald low watt bulbs then on medium or higher watt bulbs...the reson is simple to understand...take an infrared thermogun and aim it at your light sucket...iv posted photos of the lowest ceramic reptile bulb and it heats to 485f...a regular 100w bulb is still way to hot for any reptile...any thing that touches such a bulb will bulb will burn...also air dehydration from this excess heat kills 99% of captive reptiles.

The simple solution is to provide a lower wattage at a shorter distence...a bank of severald lower buls in a large cage will do better then one 150w and wont dehydrate the cage as much.

reptiles be it lizards or snakes hec even amphibiens if not able to heat up enough will try to get on the heat surce...when provided with enough heat they dont try to touch the heat surce.

all animals have a prefered heat range...arborials need less then terestrials, they also have less fat storage and therfor ar more delicate to dehydration.

IT does help if the air in the room is humid too during winter. It slows down evaporation. If you keep rain forest species, like chameleons, I've seen people put a lot of plant in the cage and room, and the misting system comes on occasionally spraying fine mist of water inside the cage. The smaller droplets evaporate faster, keeping the cage humid like in the jungle..

Too prevent excess humidity and fungus, they go with bare bottom line with a tarp to trap water, which evaporates over time. I think that's how they do it with aboreal species from rain forests. The substrate like mulch and coco-fiber, and dirt, tend to cause outbreak of molds and mites if kept wet all the time, not to mention harmful bacterias. I've heard fungus problem is common with chameleons for this reason. They seem to get easily infected by fungus.

Jobi, Is that a 55gal plastic drum? how is the front door held on? they look like something I would like to make for some of my Monitors.

Monte

yes i use them cause they cost $5 ea...you just cut a hole and use a plexy...dril holes for ventilation...with tree monitors i use one or tow 25w bulbs...for all other monitors i use one 65w

sins this a post about feeding...heres a few pointers.

notice that my cages have no dirt...they arent any more humid then the air in the room...why are my animals doing so well and growing like weeds?

the barils have a small opening the rest is solid wall...its easy to drill air holes...start with a few see how it goes and work from there...monitors raised this way feel secure and soon start feeding from tungs...they see you as a provider not a threth...iv stop providing hides long ago and worked other ways of making them feel secure...I dont handle monitors but let them climb on me if they chose.

np

is the plexi on hinges or just slide in?

Jobi, you said "ive stop providing hides long ago and worked other ways of making them feel secure"

Could you say a little more on this point?

well the 3 species iv worked the most with are first the prasinus...kept all locals of them...then doreanus and jobiensis.

all of these are very skitish and shy by nature, kept them for decades with plenty of hides and heat options...captive monitors should have heat options even in hidding or the dont do well...my animals did very well but my cages suffered the empty cage syndrome...after work id go in my reptile room to watch boring empty cages because monitors these species feel secure when hidding...so naturaly when they see you its down the borrow...one day I hade enough of this nonsence and said to myself this is captivity not the dang jungle...I stiped my cages to the bare minimum and took away all hidding posibilities...after a few weeks even my shyest animals started performing in my presence...they lerned that I was the provider not the enemy...most became friendly and took food of my fingers...many started jumping on me for food...this was an eye opening for me.
all new aditions regardless of specie adapted much faster this way...dont do this with a glass cage...animals feel secure with opaque walls and a small entrans...this is there space and dont envade it...at first do water change when the animal is sleeping...do this untile he feels safe with you...raised this way nil monitors become very trusting of you...by respecting your nil its unlikely you will ever get bitten...I raised to adulthood more then 100 nils this way and non have bitten me...for this reason they have become my favorit monitor specie in later years...plus they are the most polimorphic of the monitors...meaning they dont get borring after your seconde clutch.

Thank you very much for all these precisions Jobi.
These information are extremely usefull for me who suffer the "empty cage syndrome" with my doreanus and melinus.
I'll try your option after made some modification on cages.

in about 2 weeks time i will set up 8 baby doreanus from my favorit local...i will set them up individualy in barils until about 2feet in lenth...then il take the most outstanding male and slowly introduce it to his mother...I aim for a high yellow and green tail morph.
if your interested I can post about them this winter. these are probably the last monitors I raise befor sailing of to asia.

how long does it usually take baby Doreanus to reach 2',i know it can vary.My 2 baby Doreanus raised since babies for 5 monthes are about 2' too me that is too small even though i raise them with choices of temps/humidity and feed them 2 hopper mice between the two every day.i have the empty cage syndrome,don't see them eat often but both seem to have good fat reserves,ones larger than the other,but raising them together i would think that would be normal.I have hides for their cage currently,does it work well to lose the hides when i build the adult cage-currently with the way i'm raising them currently they don't associate me with their food.What size cage do you keep your adult Doreanus in?

I start them individualy in upright barels...they grow from 6in to 24in in about 5 months...then I tip the barels sideway reduce the feeding and keep them an extra six months...after this I cool them and introduce 1.3 in 6by6by6 pens...these pens iv used for all medium to large size monitors.

The problematic when raising them in pairs (groups)is domination...this is always detrimental to the lower ranking minitor...also femals start cycling befor you set them up for nesting (not good) when kept individualy they grow faster and less stressed...captive raised monitors are easy to introduce if you cool them and set up in new cage.

Of course I'm interested to have news of these melinus.
Could you precise the sense of "pens" ? I'm not american and I think it's not "pencils" !

pen is a walk inn enclosure

my monitors are not melinus but doreanus...all similar in my opinion.

by the way I am french and my english is the worst on this forum...funny thing is it keeps getting worst every year?
ciao

Ok.
I write "melinus" in place of doreanus. It's a lapsus. I've one melinus and one doreanus for now. Think about somes more....

Tu écris encore un peu le français?

"Merci" for all

Jobi,i love those photos of the Bewani Doreanus-you describe high yellow with green tail is this typical of juveniles of this local?

"and last forget about dang books...they teach you to fail...monitors will teach you right. "

Jobi, that is terrible advice. I don't think you have actually thought that through.

An experienced keeper may not need books, although I find myself referring to reference material all the time, whether it be books or other keepers.

But in order to properly "read and react" you have to have a basis of knowledge and understanding. You have to have an idea of the possibilities. Ignorance is the main foe here, leading to the classic problem of new or ignorant keepers setting up a cage, adding a heat lamp and then saying- "Hmm, it looks hot. It feels pretty hot. 105F? That sounds pretty hot."

But it isn't actually hot. Without a reasonable base of knowledge and comparison, an ignorant keeper won't see this overall picture, nor be able to read and react appropriately.

The Savannah Monitor book by Bennett and Ravi is an excellent work, super valuable, and a great reference. There are certainly tons of crappy books out there, and that is why it is so important to steer folks to the RIGHT information and give them the best chance of success.

And success is much more likely if you can provide solid reference material, as opposed to saying "Look at that lizard. Now figure it out."
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Luckilly I have the intelligence to both read books and observe my reptile I am glad to get all the advice I can get. Thank you all so far for everything.

I work crazy hours at Petco, so I have been changing what I can over the past two days.

So far I have raised his heat lamp wattage and placed it lower to raise the temperature to 120- 125 degrees. I also have an undertank heated under the warm side where his hide is, is this a good idea?

I have been misting the cage more often and he?has spent much less time in his water dish and more time either basking or digging in his sand. I plan on getting potting soil for his substrate, but I have to wait til tomorrow because all the hardware/gardening stores are always closed by the time I get out of work.
Should i mix it with the sand? Or should I just nix the calci-sand all together?

When I put his crickets in today he ran after and ate two right in front of me without just playing with them

I haven't reread the whole thread, but I don't remember folks doubting your intelligence. "Ignorance", if that is what you are referring to, is just lacking knowledge. It isn't anything personal at all.

"Upping wattage" is seldom the answer for basking solutions. Even for giant species, full grown adults, we never use more than an 85 watt Halogen bulb to achieve basking temps. 99% of our setups use a 50 watt bulb or smaller. That doesn't mean that for an adult, you aren't using multiple bulbs, but high wattage bulbs represent a misunderstanding of basking setups and how temps work. More info in our site FAQ.

As for soil, forget the calci sand, and forget the potting soil. Potting soil has fertilizers and additives to make plants grow. You want plain soil. A good topsoil will work. Sand wise, if you are going to do a mix, use regular play sand. The only thing calci sand is good for is staining your fingers.

More info on soils at our FAQ as well. Look for the info on the Home Depot mix. That provides an easy to work with mix that you can start to learn from, and you will be able to identify other soils (natural or mixes) that will either work, or not.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Dear Robyn
Years have gone buy and you seem to keep turning in circles.
This is in no way meant to offend you or the hard work youve been doing, but ask yourself why is it that your monitor projects dont lift???
you guys have spent without counting...building set-ups for black throats and some green trees, gilas and uromastyx...all easy species.
each time I pulled for your sucess...ended up feeling sorry for your failieurs.

I have a copy of every known varanid literatures...including Benettes...nowdays if someone is sirious about keeping lizards I send them to varanus...net the only good reference with real hard proven methods.
also asking questions on this forum is a good start, much better then anny literature because advise here will be debated by others and therfore provide more insight to the keeper.

in the past I have offered you all my offsprings and you declined my offer, perhaps 15years ago you didnt realise what an amasing offer that was, too bad I am not in the animal buiseness anymore and asian monitors dont seem to be anyones priority..even in asia the guys iv help set up have reteurned to wild animals trade.
cheers

We have had success with Blackthroats and Uros. Green Trees, lots of eggs, no hatchlings : )

Our primary lizard focus with animals that we are not breeding is to provide strong, vibrant, healthy gorgeous babies. We do that better than anyone in the country, I believe (for the species we work with).

But the direction our projects take have more to do with economics and business choices, not always what is fun to work with, or necessarily what I want to focus on.

Production has more to do with employee time and mental energy than anything else as well.

Forums offer different things, but just going to a more advanced forum isn't a simple solution either. This is the most popular reptile site, and this is a popular forum, but lots of folks are already intimidated by the "advanced level" presented here.

Providing keepers a path populated with the RIGHT info gives a better chance of success than letting them "figure it out" and try and weed out the bad stuff.

This keeper wants to provide a better substrate, using some kind of calci sand and potting soil combo. Simple guidance can point them in the right direction of topsoil/fill dirt/plain dirt and a playsand mix that will not only work better, but won't harm their lizard.

That is simple advice to give, a simple path to provide, and our site has that type of info, as does Daniel's book.

Best chance of success, that is the focus of my advice. What can I offer to give this keeper the best chance of success?

Ya know?
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn, just wanted to let you know that you are giving great advice. I'm not sure what is going on in all the references just made, but I think you have a great site and have learned a lot from it.

Right on Steve, and I appreciate that feedback. I hear that from many keepers, new and old, and it makes me feel like I am on the right track, support and info wise.

I do agree that intuitive keeping is a very strong approach, but it takes a lot of talent and insight to achieve that on a high level, without continued outside reference, info, and support.

I have had employees work for PE for 5 years and still struggle with the most basic of intuitive keeping, the reading and reacting. The true intuitive keeper is the exception, not the rule.

And I think in the bigger picture, I would guess 75% of monitor keepers have close to zero knowledge of proper temps, gradients (heat and moisture), substrates, etc.

For every keeper that fed whole foods today, 100 other keepers fed hot dogs or dog food : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles