Reptile & Amphibian Forums

since others are posting them. Even though they are generics, I still appreciate them.



Can't get enough of them.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Very nice Brandon.
4lakessnakes.com

I hate the word generic for Alterna, I really do. I know you are not the one who coined the phrase, and I use it too but it almost sounds like an insult or put down. It was established by the Alterna elite to down play any animal that wasn't caught by the Alterna catchers of America. Let's face it they are all pure Alterna found in the Big bend area of Texas for the most part. From now on I will call them "Non locality" at best. But would I be lying if I said they are pure Alterna?

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't like the word generic, either. It make it sound like the snakes are only good for cat food! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>>>It was established by the Alterna elite to down play any animal that wasn't caught by the Alterna catchers of America.

Really? So you know the history of the term? Let's hear it.

It's the only logical conclusion! I'm not saying that those guys all sat at a round table and decided to do this. But they certainly are the once enforcing it. I dare anyone to post a "generic" Alterna on the Alterna board and see the reaction they get. At best they will recieve no comment at all, if they are lucky. Now just look at how Brandon described his beautiful Graybands. He is like almost apologizing in advance for only having generic Alterna. I do it to, so I'm not picking on you brandon, It just jumped out at me when I read it. If Alterna were found across a much larger area like lets say most of the southern states, then this arguement would be mute. They would be decsribed as either Blairs or Alterna phase. Perhaps maybe broken up into staes or counties but, turning your nose up at anything that doesn't have GPS co-ordinates of the Mom and Dad is a bit much. I seen this sort of thing when I bred Jack Russell Vipers, I mean Terriors. To have the right to breed them with papers you had to Pay a huge amount for the rights. Other wise they would sell you a dog that was fixed. I know things are easier today, I'm talking about when they first became popular. It's all about declaring one animal more superior over anothetr. Let's face it all dogs are mutts. But I see people all the time feel almost guilty because they don't have a certifiable locality Alterna. That's my rant on the subject! I just don't like the "Generic" label. It doesn't really matter who started it, but look who's perpetuating it. I won't use that term any more by-Jorge!

*This has been an opinion by the person who goes under the name of a153fish. This in no way reflects the views of this web site or anyone affiliated with this web site. Please direct all recourse to said individual.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

well don't use the term Jorge.... I happen to prefer the term "non-local" lol, but let's not make stuff up if we really don't know who coined the term, ok?

>>well don't use the term Jorge.... I happen to prefer the term "non-local" lol, but let's not make stuff up if we really don't know who coined the term, ok?

Ok bad choice of words, but you know what I mean. I het seeing people feel like they have a second rate animal because it's not local specific. They pretty much all come from Texas don't they. With the exception of maybe a few in Mexico right at the border.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

well no, I don't agree..... right now YOU are putting a bad spin on a term that refers to a LIVING ANIMAL.....
You guys are the freaks IMO, you don't local animals, and you don't like hybrids.... and you don't like the term generic....for god's sake what is left???? hahahaha

Holy hell Jorge, you need to get over yourselves and realize that all these animals are worth loving taking care of.... if you think the term generic or non local is a put down, well that's on you!!

I've got plenty of generic non local animals in my collection, and plenty of local animals too...

Your problem Jorge... call em what ever you want.

Man I was just starting some conversaton, relax. I am not calling for an anti-Generic nation wide coilition, lol. It's just that I see many people feel threatened by the Alterna police. Which by the way are on there way to you place now, lol. But I am not a freak thank you! I appreciate all snakes. I have locality snakes and non locality snakes. I also have a few Intergrade/hybrids. I think you can have both, but I do respect the locality snakes. But maybe classifying them by mile marker on a road is a bit much?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>>But maybe classifying them by mile marker on a road is a bit much?

Just let those folks do what they want and you do what you want, is that so freaking hard?

No one is forcing anyone to do anything, and that should go for you too. You can't tell those folks what to do or what not to do, and vice versa.

It's real easy to shut me up, all you have to do is leave out the antagonistic remarks, otherwise you'll get an earful.

>>>>>But maybe classifying them by mile marker on a road is a bit much?
>>
>>Just let those folks do what they want and you do what you want, is that so freaking hard?
>>
>>No one is forcing anyone to do anything, and that should go for you too. You can't tell those folks what to do or what not to do, and vice versa.
>>
>>It's real easy to shut me up, all you have to do is leave out the antagonistic remarks, otherwise you'll get an earful.

Maybe my ost is directed at us who feel like we need to apologize for our snakes? Your right! They have the right to call them what ever they want. I'm just trying to make people think a little. I fell into the trap also, and maybe I'm just thinking out loud about how I feel? but I know I'm not alone.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

suggesting another term for generic is one thing..... telling folks how to keep track and match up their animals is quite another.

I'll stick with non local - it doesn't or shouldn't have any negative connotations attached.

>>suggesting another term for generic is one thing..... telling folks how to keep track and match up their animals is quite another.
>>
>>I'll stick with non local - it doesn't or shouldn't have any negative connotations attached.

I'm not telling anyone anything? I'm just pointing out my observation. Maybe it's skewed, but I spend 11 hours in a truck every night, what do you expect?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I'm not telling anyone anything? I'm just pointing out my observation. Maybe it's skewed, but I spend 11 hours in a truck every night, what do you expect?

It's not just alterna folks that match snakes by locality, it's throughout the hobby, all genera. So your comment about matching snakes up by the mile being too much is way off base. They do it by the rock cut! But not everyone adheres to the same philosophy. What I'm asking for is tolerance for those that want to be exact, just like I have tolerance for hybrids. Hybrids don't bother me at all, until I see one trying to be passed off as pure bred. And there's a huge difference there, in that case it's not the animal at fault, it's the human.

lol, I'm gonna jump in the middle, and late, and say, my alterna are better than yours! (Sticks tongue out, waggles fingers in ears at you) because their mine, I took the time to plan a trip, with an awesome buddy, he caught 'em, I watched, cried, cursed, and then, lol and behold, he gave them to me....and I hope they breed next year. "Cause my snakes have history, a credible witness to the findings, and they are all from the Langtry area, a notorious spot for not-so-good-looking alterna in general. But here in my room, these locality snakes that I actually got to catch one of, cause he's such a good friend he let me, they are the most precious of the alterna. It's the story, the hunt, the adventure, the Bend, and if you don't get that, you never will! I LOVE how these things always end! Go ZEE!
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Todd Hughes

I think you have just stomped on Mr. Localitys toes.

theOOLDherper
Pete

I just want to hear his story, we always called them locality and non locality, lmao....

I hate the word generic for Alterna, I really do. I know you are not the one who coined the phrase, and I use it too but it almost sounds like an insult or put down. It was established by the Alterna elite to down play any animal that wasn't caught by the Alterna catchers of America. Let's face it they are all pure Alterna found in the Big bend area of Texas for the most part. From now on I will call them "Non locality" at best. But would I be lying if I said they are pure Alterna?

I do think I understand why you feel this way but I have to say I think you might be misinterpreting or misunderstanding the alterna "elite". I suppose I would be considered one of the "elite" since I have been an avid alterna hunter and locality alterna breeder since about 1996. There are a few things I'd like to say about it. First of all there is no such thing as alterna "elite". I am not special and I didn't have to join any club to be a so called elite. All I did was go collect alterna. I liked it so I kept doing it. I certainly wasn't rich when I started either. I think I was making about $12/hr in 1996 when I made my first trip to TX. This is something anybody can do, you don't need an invitation. In fact if you ever want to go collect altenra I'm sure you will find that a ton of the "elite" will be eager to assist you on finding what are the best places, times, weather conditions, etc. It's actually one of the friendliest segments of the herp hunting hobby and they are much more willing to share spots than any other collecter segment I know of or have been a part of. Try getting good rock flipping spots for mountain kings or dens for rattlesnakes and you'll probably agree with me.

Second, although I am not part of the early alterna collecters I highly suspect the term generic was started by alterna collecters to describe their own animals, not as a put down for others. Reason being, early on I don't think most alterna hunters cared much about locality. At one time alterna were uncommon enough that probably most hunters bred anything to anything. As more were found and as differences noticed between localities, locality specific breeding took place. The term was probably coined merely as a way to distingish specimens in hunters own colonies because in the begining most collecters probably had both "generics" and locality specific.

Last thing is I have read the alterna forum for a very long time and not once have I seen any "elite" put down a generic just because it's generic. Sometimes what happens is a newbie thinks that locality can be determined by looks alone and when the "elite" explains that it's not possible to assign a locality based on looks alone, the newbie is disappointed. But that's not a put down. I can see how one might think it is but it's not. Occassionally a newbie has a snake that was mispepresented to them as a particular locality and to the experts it appears to be pretty obvious that the newbie got duped so they have to be the bearers of bad news. That's not a put down either, it's just a very unfortunate situation but it's better the newbie know the truth than for them to unintentionally perpetuate the dupe that befell them.

Generic snakes are great. I only have locality alterna but I have several generics on other stuff. I call them generics and actually like the term. For me it has no negative connotations.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

You make some very good intelegent points! I find it hard to ague with your logic on most points. Still it's disheatening to see someone have to say, here are my graybands even though they are just generic. I bet many people think twice about posting pics of their Alterna. Truth is most generics I've seen are better looking than most locality ones. "Most" not all.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Here's my generic!

Every gray band is cool, unique, and undeniably, beautiful in my eyes. Locality is awesome, but doesn't make a locale specimen more important than one that there is no locale data on. They are all equal!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Now we are talking, beautiful snake but still that lousy term 'generic'.
theOLDherper
Pete

Thank you sir!!
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Genesis 1:1

Love the orange on that Blairi.

Thank you!
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Genesis 1:1

Awesome post Aaron. Really well put together and stated. I think your assesement of the origins of the term is likely spot on.

I mostly like the observation about alterna hunters sharing info and spots over other segments. I had never thought about it but this is most certainly the case.

All that said there are those, and not nessesarily alterna people, who do use generic interchangably with mutt! To them it is a slur. Fortunately, they aren't as frequent here as they used to be and mostly when they do show up their motivation is so obvious calling attention to it is no longer nessesary.

I would also like to say one other thing about the alterna group. They are the only group who is at least trying to do something about preserving lineage info. For that effort over trashing generics or non locals, my hat's off to them.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Either I'm an arrogant list keeper, as you called me prior, or I'm working to preserve lineage info. Which is it?

>>I would also like to say one other thing about the alterna group. They are the only group who is at least trying to do something about preserving lineage info. For that effort over trashing generics or non locals, my hat's off to them.

Ooh ooh I know, I know,(holds hand up)please Mr. Kotter!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Ooh ooh I know, I know,(holds hand up)please Mr. Kotter!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Joe since I know you pretty well I would say the list is more a labor of love born out of two purposes, 1) to keep lineages pure and 2) to provide a service for both newbies and experienced keepers.

The thing for all people to remember is anybody, if they want it bad enough, can go collect their own alterna an thus achieve basicly the highest "status", that of offering F1's. This would not be possible with many species so I think it is a very significant point.

Myself I am not on the list because I find it easier to wholesale my offspring as generics if they don't sell quickly as locality. People don't realize the market for generics is alot bigger than the market for locality and unless we are talking about the very rare localities, of which nowadays there are very few, you get almost as much for generics as you do for locality.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron,
The point I'm trying to impart to them is that they can make posts and get the same point across w/o the sarcastic snide remarks and references pointed at alterna culture and alterna forum, and that I have no problem stepping in when I see that BS posted.

We've got enough problems with the legislature right now, I won't stand still when I see this ignorance posted on this web site. I already told them, if they want to shut me up, leave out the snide childish remarks, otherwise they are going to get an earful.

I did kinda feel offended by the reference to the alterna elite but you seemed to have things well in hand so I tried to focus on other things.

Most of the time when the "elite" go for the jugular it's among themselves and not directed at newbies. I can see how newbies might be wary of jumping into the fray though. Sometimes what happens is a newbie posts an animal that is of suspicious appearance and the "elite" know who it came from and they take the breeder to task. It's not directed at the newbie, it's directed at the breeder. But I can see how a newbie might think it's directed at themselves. I'm not speaking to you here Joe, 'cause I know you already know this, I'm just making some generalizations that are applicable to to situation brought up by the guy who said "elite", sorry I can't remember your name right now.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Come on Joe, that comment was made because I thought that the rules to remain on the recommended list changed mid-stream. When Aaron pointed out that I was mistaken I posted an apology.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

you posted an apology???? well I'll be damned...... in that case I'll eat a big of humble pie and apologise to YOU only. Sorry Tony, you are excused.

Yes I did, like as soon as Aaron pointed out I was mistaken. I looked for it but effective use of the search function here continues to elude me. Hope this clears the air because I've been wondering why my posts continually "pisss" you off.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

In all fairness there was a recent reference to the alterna forum, and I pointed out that is has been uber quiet over there., but I'm willing to bury that one. But to answer your question, that on top of the other surely had a bearing on my response.

Joe it gets ugly on all the forums. I only referenced the gb forum because it is almost exclusively a locality issues that causes it there. At least that was the intent.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I probably should have started a separate thread? I didn't mean to hi-jack your post. Those are some beautiful Alterna!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

UH HELLO.....probably what you should have done was left out the part YOU MADE UP

>>>>It was established by the Alterna elite to down play any animal that wasn't caught by the Alterna catchers of America.

Joe
Sorry to get back to this so late.
When Jeorge used the terms 'elite' and 'alterna catchers' my imediate thought was you as you seem to be the kingpin of the alterna crowd.
Granted I have a lot to catch up on since dealing with alternas almost 40 years ago and my ignorance probably shows. But in reading all the info I can find and going way back on the forums it seems that you have endeavored to put yourself at the top of the pile.Your "Alterna Page" is a good example, although it seems to have not been updated in the last 4 years!
You seem to have put almost impossible requirements on your 'selected breeders' list so that a breeder with one or two questionable snakes can't make the list.
The Gray Banded forum seems to be in it's death dance and in my uneducated mind it seems to be the fault of the 'elite' alterna breeders.Everything but thiers is a mutt, a term that I have seen used quite often.
So mutt or generic it seems like the elite crowd has made to the point that the rest of us are almost ashamed of our non-locality ,but always beautiful blairs and alternas.
Sorry for the rambling but my old mind and one finger typing ain't up to par.
I am not trying to put you down by this, I am just trying to point out my view of the situation,I wish I had a small part of the knowledge you seem to have.
theOLDherper
Pete

If they don't make the list, it's not the end of the world. They can still sell their wares in the classifieds, go take a look.

The "impossible" standards are the same as they have always been, since the inception of that forum and the beginnings of this web site in 1994.

There is still, and always has been something for everyone. Those with exacting standards know where to go. Those who only need the word of the breeder also have many choices.

You seem to criticize a system that offers choices for everyone? Perhaps you are showing your ignorance again? Most of the complaints are from folks who don't measure up to the standards of the list, no I take that back, ALL of the complaints are from those folks.

Given the new laws in Texas, a select few breeders sought to preserve the snakes that they knew were meeting the standards.
Many breeders went underground and do not wish to participate in any lists or classified ads. Some of those are the guys that have the best snakes IMO, and I know who they are. I don't list anyone that doesn't want to be listed.

Now you should be very careful in saying that just because a snake does not meet the standards of the list, that it is not a locality animal. That can not be further from the truth, and I'm not saying that. The truth is that the animal just can't be traced back to the wild caught parents. It may or may not be a locality animal.

So again, I say go look at the classifieds, there sure are a lot of locality animals claimed in there. Can you tell which ad(s) t there today are a lie? They are there. Can you say the same?

I don't really care to debate this with you, the list is there and you are free to use it or not.

PS I'll update the page when someone sends me photos of legally collected alterna, not some snake they poached after the law was passed.

oh, and as far as "king-pin and disciples" - LMAO

I've taken more heat for doing this, maintaining that web site, and that list, and fighting this law, than I have made friends.
Hey but that's fine, because I only have to answer to myself about why I do what I do.

If you have anything more to say to me, just pick up the phone and call me 210-860-0594

As I see it the requirements of the list are quite objective. Since there is alot of crossover in appearance within and across localities nobody can be sure of locality based on appearance alone. That simple truth is above anything else. So the only way to know for sure if something is locality specific is to know where it was collected. That means it needs to be tracable all the way back to the actual wild caught specimens, pretty self evident. I see nothing elitist at all about it, one just needs to understand that objective of the list is not to say who has the "best" alterna but rather it's just to say who has true locality specific stock.

If someone, anyone, is to be believed is it not reasonable to ask for some evidence that what they claim is true? Evidence is the great equalizer, either you have it or you don't, it doesn't matter what your reputation is. That's the opposite of elitist, IMHO.

As I understand it the list simply requires lineage and photo documentation. That's pretty cut and dried, not much room for special treatment there, as far as I can see. Requiring photos makes sense to me because it makes it alot harder to make false claims. If you can provide a photo then the photo is always there as a reference. If someone is tempted to submit a photo of a snake that is not what they are claiming it to be there's always going to be the chance somebody else will recognize the snake and call them out. Yes somebody could produce a snake and raise it up, making sure nobody ever sees it and then claim they caught it themselves but that's a lot of trouble to go through just to be on the list and I think very few(if any) would seriously put in that kind of effort.

Yea it soes suck when a newbie trusts somebody, buys a pair of snakes, raises them up and then finds out about the list and wants to be on it. I can see how they might be upset emotionally and blame it on the list. But the list needs to be objective if it's going to have any usefulness as it pertains to locality. I think more people need to understand that the objective of the list is to provide a reliable provenance for locality bloodline, not to say who is the best to buy any snake from. A breeder on the list is only the best to buy from if your looking specifically for something that falls within the scope of the lists intended purpose and you can't find it otherwise.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I never really had "THE LIST" in mind when I made my original comment, but since you bring it up. Can you tell me what the point of it is, if there is obvious crossover types from most areas? I mean some have very distinct looking phenotypes but then there is always the oddball specimen that is found which doesn't fit the mold. i guess it just sound like so much effort for something so insignificant? I can appreciate the effort espescially when locals have different phenotypes. But in general it seems like overkill. Just my opinion nothing more.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Good question and I'm glad you asked. Graybands are a highly variable species. There are two basic phases. Blair's, which have wide orange bands or saddles bordered by black on a gray ground color. Sometimes the black borders have secondary white borders between the black and the gray. Alterna which has narrow black rings called "primaries", lacking red, on a gray ground color. In between the primary black rings there are secondary, narrower, often broken, black rings and/or spots called "alternates". Sometimes the black primaries and/or alternates are bordered in white. There are also intermediate specimens, ie Blair's with alternates, alternas with narrow slits of orange and basicly any gradation between the two basic phases you can think of probably occurs.

But these basic phases, Blair's, alterna and intermediate are not all the variation. There is much more. In any phase the gray can be as light as almost bone white to as dark as actual black. Orange can be anything from pale washed out, bright, brick red, tomato red, etc. There are high band counts and low band counts. Sometimes the alternates are simply narrow black rings or they can be very complex, ie triple alternaes surrounded by speckling.

To get to the point. Here are a few variations which I will assign a letter to:
a) Light low band count Blair's.
b) Dark low band count Blair's
c) Light low band count alterna with simple alternates.
d) Dark low band count alterna with simple alternas.
e) Light high band count alterna with simple alternates.
f) Dark high band count alterna with complex alternates and speckling.

There are many more variations but that is probably enough to make my point. Now I will give some actual localities and assign the variations which commonly occur there and give a rough estimate, based on my own experience(both from my own collecting and from what I have seen others collect when I was there) of the frequency at which those phases occur there.
1) Hwy. 277: a-50%, b-20%, c-20%, d-10%.
2) Langtry: a-30%, b-70%, c and d-less than 1% but they do occur there.
3) Sanderson: a-20%, b-50%, c-10%, d-20%. Now actually this locality does produce about 20% that are tending towards higher band counts and more complex patterns but for the sake of simplicity and due to the fact that most of them are "not quite there" in regards to true high band counts, I assigned them to just a, b, c and d. You will notice that the total percent of Blair's to alterna is very similar to Hwy. 277 but Hwy. 277 tends to have more light phases and Sanderson tends to have more dark phases. What is interesting also is that with random first generation breedings Hwy. 277 tends to produce offspring that get more simple and lower bands counts. Random first generation breedings of Sanderson animals tends to produce offspring that are more complex and/or higher band counts.
4) Davis Mountains: c-5%, d-10%, e-20%, f-60% there aren't really any true Blair's phase that I know of from the Davis Mtns. but there are maybe about 5% that have a sorta Blair'sy look to them, ie big(relative to what you usually see there) orange diamonds but they always have alternates as well.

So I think you can see from above how any single snake can't be assigned to any particular locality yet the locality can make a huge difference in the range of looks one can expect from the offspring and the percentages thereof.

There are also many finer and more sublte differences that occur between localities. For example a dark Blair's phase from Hwy. 277 will often have bright orange but the orange is usually heavily tipped with black. A dark Blair's phase from Langtry will usually not have bright orange, usually the orange will be a dullish brick color. However, at Sanderson a dark Blair's phase will have a significantly higher probability of having bright, clean orange with that dark backround.

Aside from the practical reasons, alterna hunters often have an emotional attatchment. Knowing that a snake comes from a particular locality can conjur up memories of being at that locality. Many, and I'm one of them, just think it ads an extra sense of specialness, to think that this snakes parents and parents parents, etc. lived on the very hillside or rock cut where one walked and felt the breezes, smelled the plants, had good times with friends and other hunters, etc.

So the point of the list is basicly just to provide contact information for those breeders who have locality specific stock. Nothing more than that, just a list that says, basicly, these guys are working with these localities and that their stock has been verified with this evidence. There is of course a certain amount of evidence one is required to submit that is purely for the purpose of verification. Anyone who submits the required evidence will be accepted. The only exceptions would be somebody who gets caught in a lie. Unfortunately that can extend to innocent parties who unknowingly bought stock from somebody who got caught lying. If you get caught lying then you and all your snakes are off the list. If you are an innocent party who unknowingly bought misrepresented snakes, you personally are not going to get refused or kicked off the list but obviously the particular line you have that was misrepresented cannot be accepted. Your other snakes or other snakes you buy or catch in the future would still be accepted as long as you can provide the required evidence and information.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thank you for taking the time to explain that. Your descriptions were very clear. I have some so called locality snakes, or maybe I should call them locality type snakes which fit your descriptions perfectly. I know they would not be accepted as true locality since I have no proof of their lineage except the word of the breeders. Here's my 227 and East Sanderson types.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Well the top one looks like a 277 and the bottom one looks like a Sanderson. I have two bloodlines of 277's that wouldn't be accepted even though I got them from Adam Sweetman and Adam is like famous for being one of the original collecters to popularize 277. I just don't have photos of the adults that produced my snakes. I am still very confident that they are 277's and when I offer them I offer them as such.

I think most people would believe you on those localities. If you want to be on the list what I would say is just keep those snakes you have and when you sell the babies use the money to buy something from someone who can tell you the full lineage and provide you with photos of the adults and, this is important, every specimen that was used in the line to produce yours. You don't have to buy from someone on the list, you just need to obtain the data.

Actually most of my snakes were just like yours to begin with, I just had the word of the breeder. In my case, since I avidly like to hunt graybands, over the years I collected enough to start my own bloodlines. As I bred the snakes I collected my cages tended to fill up with babies that I was more emotionally attached to and they just displaced my bought colonies. It was a natural process, I didn't have the goal to replace them, it just sort of happened naturally.

One thing you may find though is that there is alot less money in locality snakes than it appears. Everybody hears about those few awesome snakes that somebody gets high dollars for but those snakes are actually few and far between. That's why I said earlier I wholesale most of my offspring. It's just alot easier than having a bunch of mouths to feed when I have a full time job and other things to do.

One thing about the list though relates to the history of hunting alterna. "Back in the day" when alterna were worth more money alot of shennagins went on with fly by night guys going out to TX, bringing snakes with them and claiming they caught them and trying to sell them out there. Or somebody would here that John Doe collected a male from locality X and somebody would take advantage of that info and knowing Doe would need a female they would "make" one and just lie trying to sell it to Doe because they knew he would pay top dollar to pair up his snake that he caught. This stuff went on ALOT, hence the reason the list was born. It's also the reason many die hard hunters are leery of "outsiders". Just the way it is. But most hunters are fairly willing to help any newbie catch their own alterna.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I don't have any desire to be on the list really. I am satisfied that both of these are locality. Both come from known lines. The top one is a Sweetman bloodline, I purchased from a well known breeder. The second was from good bloodline also. I just don't have any documentation. I probably can get it for the 277 but That's not my desire. I do appreciate the info though, thanks.

As for the shinanigans, it happens in the dog world too! Papers are easy to falsify if you wanted to do so.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That is about the best chunk of information I have seen yet.
Print out and study.
One thing though, where do buckskins fit into this.
Thank you again. As I have mentioned many times before, I have a lot of catching up to do so that I won't be refered to as an ignorant, senile old fool.
G.F.'Pete'Peters

Buckskin is is usually associated with age, as certain snakes get older the gray takes on a buckskin hue. I've seen this most often with Davis Mountains snakes but it also happens to Alpine(which is very close to Davis) snakes fairly often. I've also seen it with River Rd. and Hwy. 277 snakes, which are localities distant to Davis and Alpine so it could probably happen to any snake. Still it does seem to be that the Davis snakes display the trait more than anywhere else and it also shows up at an earlier age in the Davis snakes. Davis snakes are the only ones I've seen where you could actually look at them soon after hatching and say they are going to develop buckskin. I'm sure this is true for Alpine snakes too, because they are so similar to Davis, but I have limited experience with Alpine snakes and just haven't noticed it personally.

Snakes that develop buckskin also often develop a red or orange "bleed" outside the black borders which makes me think the buckskin color is due to a gradual suffusion of orange(I guess that would be erythrins) throughout the snake.

I'm sure one could breed for the buckskin trait just like any other trait.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thank you.
That clears up a lot of what had me puzzled.
theOLDherper
Pete

You don't have to apologize for these beauties being generic. I really like the ones with the big orange bands. some of my pyros are locale specific and others are locale unknown, or generic, but they are all my treasures.

Besides, unless you personally went out and gathered the stock from a locale, you have only the word of the seller that they are locale specific or not.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire