Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had time to think about the whole Alterna Elite thread and I would like to say a few things. First off I admit that I reacted from the gut and made comments that aren't completely fair. The term Generic was not coined as a method to degrade non locale snakes. That was a stupid assumption on my part. It is however what it felt like. I've noticed this same feeling by many who post their non local Alterna. I merely wanted to play the other side of the coin and say that Generic Alterna are very acceptable by many here on this forum at least.

But now I want to turn my focus on something else! Do we have to engage in debate with insults? Ok I get the fact that what I said may have been received as an insult by those who may be in the locality Alterna arena, but is that reason to retaliate with name calling, like we saw in the thread below, or above depending on how you set up your preferences? I think many times, I am fighting against an attitude instead of the content of the argument. It is this name calling that sparks wars! I know most posters here don't do it but to those who have done it and I fell trap to it also, can we please stop it? This place could be so much more enjoyable if we could just follow one rule. Don't call people insulting names.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I agree. I hope my attempts at humor are not taken the wrong way by anyone.
From Wikipedia:
U.S. Route 277 is a north–south United States Highway. It is a spur of U.S. Route 77. It runs for 633 miles (1,019 km) across Oklahoma and Texas. US 277's northern terminus is in Newcastle, Oklahoma at Interstate 44, which is also the northern terminus of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. Its southern terminus is in Carrizo Springs, Texas at U.S. Route 83. It passes through the states of Oklahoma and Texas.
I mention this Hwy 277 as it is an example of an often cited locale, but look how long this thing is! That is not very locale specific to me, but then maybe I am missing something here. LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

In all fairness not all of that is in Alterna habitat. So there is probably a much shorter span which is likely for Alterna sightings.

I really wanted to focus more on the forum behavior. I think this forum is a wealth of knowledge and I know I have learned a lot since I've been hanging out here but we really need to have more decent ways of expressing ourselves. Me included! I'm not trying to throw stones. But we just read Brandons post where he said he doesn't post here very much, and I have talked to many long time Kingsnake guys who say the same. So I wrote this in hopes of making this place better cause it looks like it's up to us.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

About the fighting; it takes two to tangle, so the best policy is to just shine annoying comments.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>About the fighting; it takes two to tangle, so the best policy is to just shine annoying comments.
>>-----
>>Bob/Chris
>>Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I know I have been trying to control my temper all my life, lol. I just don't understand the insults.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>>I just don't understand the insults.

This is exactly what I'm trying to explain to you. I take the endless jabs on alterna culture, the alterna forum, and locality breeders as insults. I don't have any problem jumping in when I see it, as you know.

Highway 277 is a long ass highway, and you can find alterna along 30 miles of that highway. That's why they break down by the sub locals - i.e. carruthers, red bluff, chaney, S picnic area, S of loma, loma, north of loma, red bluff, buffalo, ....yeah I've caught alterna at every one of those sub locals.

IN summary, Highway 277 is not a specific locality, Red Bluff, Highway 277 is.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Isolated populations like this interest me. I wonder if they are fragments of a once larger more wide spread population? If so how long have they been separated, have phenotype differences emerged and what conditions would allow renewed expansion or at least allow greater integration?

The way we look at nature is kind of funny. We tend to think of things as static but facts are that on the grand scale we're just witnessing a snap shot of its potential. Humbling stuff.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

It's an extremely interesting topic to me...especially when you start looking at geography and the origins of the whole mexicana complex.

>>It's an extremely interesting topic to me...especially when you start looking at geography and the origins of the whole mexicana complex.

Me too.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

the endless jabs on the alterna elite and alterna culture have gotten old. That's what I reacted to, and no doubt if I see slights in the future I will react to them.

>>the endless jabs on the alterna elite and alterna culture have gotten old. That's what I reacted to, and no doubt if I see slights in the future I will react to them.

That's understandable, but if we could react with information not insults that would be great for all. Aaron has done a lot in a few post to make me think differently. I can at least see a view I can respect. We don't all have to agree, and thank GOD we we don't, or this would be one boring world.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Right, the endless jabs at alterna culture and alterna elite are disrespectful. Is that something that can admit?

The fact is that there are those locality nuts that routinely bash generics. Time was I lumped all locality guys with these marketers. Aaron almost single handedly helped me see the light and gain an appreciation for the locality approach. There is still much about it I do not get but the perspective of guys and gals how spend hours afield looking for these animals in their habitats is crystal.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Thanks. I guess I am pretty diplomatic by nature.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I think you guys forget your SNAKE KEEPERS, in that, you should already realize that you are the minority and are the odd ones out. As in, not normal. Or subnormal!

What gets me is, even amoung the goodballs(goofy snake keepers) You still try to maintain some manner of social stradification. Basic racism attempts to take hold here.

To make this a little more confused, snakes are all the same, THEY do not know if they are local or generic, or a knockoff, or a cross or hybrid. They only know they want to live and feed and reproduce and do what is inherent to them. You know make nasty snake love and junk.

Take their skins off and they are all the same. There is a human saying for this but I refuse to use it.

So, as nasty arse snake keepers, even worse, nasty arse colubrid keepers, you fight amoungst yourselfs as to who is better. Not in ability, as colubrids are the easist of the easy to keep, but with whos snake is better.

Well you know the old saying, its not how good your snake is, but how well you use it. Or even if you get to use it at all, hahahahahahahahahahaha

So yes, you guys are goofballs. To put any name like generic on such wonderful animals is INSANE. Think about the animal and not your silly insecurities.

You should all have your snakes confiscated and have rules to not allow you to keep them, your not worthy, your not worthy, your not worthy, of course your not, if you fight amoungst yourselves over such silly goofball things.

On the otherhand, if it were a two headed snake, then there would be a very special place in hell for you. A very very special place.

Jose Morales you are only half right. These fights have almost nothing to do with the snakes, it's people disrespecting people, and people taking offense to things said by other people. In that regard this is as old the human race and the only thing we all have in common is that we keep snakes (lowly colubrids).

Frank wrote:
snakes are all the same and
Take their skins off and they are all the same.

That is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of basic biology. I read a lot of things on this forum without reacting or posting, but when I see blatant ignorance spread like butter on bread, I have to say something.

Bone structure and soft tissue morphology differ significantly even between closely related members of the same genus. The reproductive morphology of L. ruthveni is quite different than that of L. triangulum, for example. Their vertebrae also differ. Further, it's been demonstrated that hemipene morphology can differ between localities within a species. To state that "snakes are all the same" is flat out wrong.

To delve into what a snake actually IS... "Snake" is a term used to describe a number of legless reptiles without external ear openings. All snakes are members of the clade Scleroglossa, which is sister to the Iguania (Iguanids, Agamids, and Chamaeleonids). Scleroglossa also includes the Anguids, Geckonids, Varanids, and a whole host of other groups. The Scleroglossa and Iguania are grouped in Squamata, which is sister to the Sphenodontids - the Tuatara. The Tuatara and all lizards/snakes (Squamata) make up the larger group called Lepidosauria. The Lepidosauria is, in turn, grouped with the Archosaurs (Birds dinosaurs and crocodilians) and the turtles in a group known as Sauropsida, or "Reptiles".

-Cole

I took this all snakes are the same under the skin statement to be figurative, not literal. Its like saying all cats are gray in the dark. More to the point of the snake statement, all men bleed the same color blood.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

As much as I'd prefer you to be correct, Frank's words speak differently.

Frank wrote:
"THEY do not know if they are local or generic, or a knockoff, or a cross or hybrid."

Which is simply not correct. While the capacity of snakes to "know" something in a cognitive sense can be debated for a long time (but probably doesn't exist...), the fact remains that genetically (which 'round-about translates to physically, since genotype environment = phenotype), the animals are quite different. They smell different (they've got different pheromones), they've got different prey preferences, and they've got a different morphology. The spines, ridges, and twists in a male's hemipenes serve a purpose and differ greatly between species (and even populations). Please note that this is NOT a passage of judgement or a statement on the ethics of hybridization or forced intergradation, but rather a presentation of fact.

Further, the term "kingsnake" is arbitrary. Just because two aniamls are called "kingsnakes" (L. mexicana and L. getula, for example), doesn't in any way imply that they are "the same" as some posters would like to believe.

-Cole
(one of those evil science guys)

They smell different (they've got different pheromones), they've got different prey preferences, and they've got a different morphology. The spines, ridges, and twists in a male's hemipenes serve a purpose and differ greatly between species (and even populations).
Wow! I had no idea there were these differences to such a degree! It is amazing anyone can ever produce a hybrid if there is such a difference amongst species, even down to the hemipenes.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>>Wow! I had no idea there were these differences to such a degree! It is amazing anyone can ever produce a hybrid if there is such a difference amongst species, even down to the hemipenes.

>hybrids happen in nature a simple fact. these animals are much more closely related than some would lead you to believe. of course FR's post was speaking figuratively and NOT literally, some folks just cant see the forest cuz all the tree's are in the way.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>They smell different (they've got different pheromones), they've got different prey preferences, and they've got a different morphology. The spines, ridges, and twists in a male's hemipenes serve a purpose and differ greatly between species (and even populations).
>>Wow! I had no idea there were these differences to such a degree! It is amazing anyone can ever produce a hybrid if there is such a difference amongst species, even down to the hemipenes.
>>-----
>>Bob/Chris
>>Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Hemipenal structure is one characteristic that helps determine taxonomy....along with scale counts, phenotypical pattern, color, habitat, etc.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

No offense guys, but it really does not work out like you would want.

For instance, all those characteristics have a range, and with kingsnakes those ranges often overlap.

I worked with the mexican montane kings many years ago, you know, before all of you had them. I also with with the herp department here in Tucson.

I brought back sheds from all over. And I had sheds from know snakes. These sheds from from both milksnakes and montane kings. And yes, the ranges overlaped.

The funny part, without knowing where the shed was from, the biologist could not tell me, what any of the sheds were. All they could say was, the characters overlaped.

So no, these type of things have a place, but its just not all that strait. Well it is in a book, but once you close the book, thinks get confusing.

Like I said to that fella. None of you could tell a generic mex, from a local, with the skin off. And most of you could not tell a generic from a local, without knowing the local.

I am sure a few of you have knowledge of a few locals, but once those are out of the way, your done. Even knowledge of a local does not eliminate the variation that kings have. Cheers

what's really funny is, some of the new field work is just now confirming some of the things you told me 30 years ago. hahaha and some of those things you took a lot of heat for, for a long time.

So you agree with FR? Which is it? I think he said all this locality stuff is bogus, or am I not understanding correctly?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Locality breeding is just a philosophy, not a right or wrong. No one should have to defend that they either follow or don't follow that philosophy.

Specifically what this post above is referencing is some things about Frank told me about Mexico over thirty years ago, and exactly what he said in his post. If Frank were to show you a particular shed skin from a particular place(s) in Mexico (pardon me for not sharing the places), You would not be able to attribute that skin to anything more than Lampropeltis. There are places where triangulum, mexicana, and alterna are sympatric and there is varying degrees of mixing going on in the wild. Frank told me this over 30 years ago and recent field work has confirmed this to be true. Franks statements back then contradicted Gartka's work, which is still to this day one of the most referenced works on the subject.

I was refering to the stuff like this> "So yes, you guys are goofballs. To put any name like generic on such wonderful animals is INSANE. Think about the animal and not your silly insecurities.

You should all have your snakes confiscated and have rules to not allow you to keep them, your not worthy, your not worthy, your not worthy, of course your not, if you fight amoungst yourselves over such silly goofball things."

GOD forbid I ever say anything like that? Oh wait I thing I did, hhmmm. But I was blasted! lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Here we go again....

NO that's not what you were blasted for.... the text is still down go read it....I told you no less than 10 times what I objected to, yet here I'm going to have to explain it again?? I take offense to digs on alterna culture, calling us ALTERNA ELITE - and if you don't understand that, well I don't want to have to use the term alterna ignorant, because well we know how that would set with you.

I also told you, I didn't coin the term "generic" that both you and (I guess Frank?) are objecting to. Since I didn't coin the term, and I don't prefer the term, why should I take offense to what Frank said? I use the Terms local and non local - but even if I do happen to use the term generic, I am not associating a negative connotation to it like YOU do.

Following along?

>>Here we go again....
>>
>>NO that's not what you were blasted for.... the text is still down go read it....I told you no less than 10 times what I objected to, yet here I'm going to have to explain it again?? I take offense to digs on alterna culture, calling us ALTERNA ELITE - and if you don't understand that, well I don't want to have to use the term alterna ignorant, because well we know how that would set with you.
>>
>>I also told you, I didn't coin the term "generic" that both you and (I guess Frank?) are objecting to. Since I didn't coin the term, and I don't prefer the term, why should I take offense to what Frank said? I use the Terms local and non local - but even if I do happen to use the term generic, I am not associating a negative connotation to it like YOU do.
>>
>>Following along?

OK well I was blasted for that, probably by someone else. It's hard to keep track of all of you guys. But Isn't FR saying there is no difference from locality and non-locality Alterna?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>OK well I was blasted for that, probably by someone else. It's hard to keep track of all of you guys. But Isn't FR saying there is no difference from locality and non-locality Alterna?

Yes, I believe that FR does not (always) adhere to the locality breeding philosophy, and as I explained, he should be free to decide if he wants to adhere to that philosophy or not. Locality breeding is not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of choice.

I also stated elsewhere, that I have both locality pairings and non locality pairings (not alterna, I don't currently keep alterna).

You indeed missed the point, but I will put money that could not not tell a generic blairs from a local specific blairs, or even a blairs crossed with a Ruthveni, without the skin on them.

of course you could tell a blairs crossed with a hognose, but my bet is, you could tell a blairs crossed with any montane, and most likely any getula. Cheers

The snakes do not know they are different you bone head.

Guezzzzzz you are funny.

That's where we learned how to treat people nice.

Well said, Jorge.
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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
2.2 Normal (het hypo, lavender, striped) cornsnake hatchlings
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

Joe, and others, I have read many of your spats back and forth for a while now, and you all are very knowledgable... yet HAVE no idea how your comments- which might be perfectly inoffensive you you all, might come off to others- once they are in writing. Here we have no benifite of your voice or facial tones to compliment what you are saying and thus others get ticked off at what you write- and Joe F you seem to be a good example- don't take it personally. I try to be very carefull what and how I write something- ie wording - so not to offend others. But many in these recent posts have not.

However, these same folks started out just stating things how they see them- and made GREAT points, yet some where in their wording- and if you read back over it, its EASY to see, how their well meaning statements were triped up with generalizations of others and opinions that got quickly taken out of context because the writer DID NOT consider how his statements- again with out the benifit of facial expresions or verbal intonataion- might cause others to react and spoil an other wise great topic.

Just want to note, it took me a bit to get up and write this, cause I know how sensitive we all can be, but social tact is just as important in a chat room as in person. Please understand that I have no intention of causing a rucus, just making a humble observation. As an educator and former HS teacher, I have had to become VERY aware of how I come accross verbally and in print.

Alex
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), 1 Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: Pr Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), Western Green, F (Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 150 Orchid plants, 40 assorted tropical plants and violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and etc...

Alex,
Make no mistake, I was pissed off and act like an asshole on purpose, because I take the endless slights on alterna culture, alterna elite, and locality breeders personally.

I'm just telling you like it is. This is not something that just happened today, or yesterday, the slights have been endless and I'm sensitive to it.

I agree with everything you are saying, but this is a two way street, and it goes for everyone.

Understand Joe, and thanks for your reply... I hope others will take the time to read my post and consider it as carefully as you did.

Alex
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), 1 Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: Pr Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), Western Green, F (Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 150 Orchid plants, 40 assorted tropical plants and violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and etc...

some things never change, lol. My name is Todd, I keep snakes, and sometimes, if you look in my driveway, you might find something of interest to you! Anyways, it's great that we can all get some of this out in the open, now, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! Y'know what burns my butt? A flame about THIS high! If you haven't been there, done that, then you really aren't comparing apples to apples. THAT'S what really burns my butt, when people who have no clue about both sides of the story weigh in on one side and say it is the right way.
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Todd Hughes

>>some things never change, lol. My name is Todd, I keep snakes, and sometimes, if you look in my driveway, you might find something of interest to you! Anyways, it's great that we can all get some of this out in the open, now, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! Y'know what burns my butt? A flame about THIS high! If you haven't been there, done that, then you really aren't comparing apples to apples. THAT'S what really burns my butt, when people who have no clue about both sides of the story weigh in on one side and say it is the right way.
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>>Todd Hughes

Todd I agree! That is why we have dialogue and debate to get others view points. But if the view point comes attached with a rock, and hits you in the eye, then it's pretty hard to see what the message was when your eye is swollen, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

But if the view point comes attached with a rock, and hits you in the eye, then it's pretty hard to see what the message was when your eye is swollen, lol.
This makes me think of married folks who go around and around ad nauseam. At least we all are not married to one another, and can simply go off line or to another page if things get too testy. We need more emoticons to help others understand us!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

That's funny, lol. How did you do that?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That's funny, lol. How did you do that?
I collect animated gifs.

Easy to make with Photoshop and ImageReady, although a tad time consuming.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

HAHAHAAAA!!,......that one is funny as all hell!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

HAHAHAAAA!!,......that one is funny as all hell!

My all time favorite; it seems this may be a common occurrence here judging by the context of some of these threads! LOL!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

so waht, you post it like you would a photo? Those are cool.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yes, post them like a photo. They are images just like photos. If you see one you like, right click on it and do a SAVE AS, to your Pictures folder, then upload it to Photobucket or another image hosting site to get the url so you can post it in the forums.

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>Yes, post them like a photo. They are images just like photos. If you see one you like, right click on it and do a SAVE AS, to your Pictures folder, then upload it to Photobucket or another image hosting site to get the url so you can post it in the forums.

OK so uploading to a photo account makes it a bit easier? Cool thanks1 I'll have to open a second account on another similar site because I imagine the gifs will use much more space and will quickly fill my free account, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

No, not really, that is ONLY if you want to save it, and use the same one in the future. Otherwise, if you stumble upon alot of this stuff like I do, I simply click on the thumbnail in the image search, then click on the picture itself up in the top left corner so only the photo itself is shown on the screen,..then right click on it and you will see "properties", in the drop-down menu. Simply hold down the left mouse button to highlight the address(URL), then click the "OK" tab below, then simply paste it into the "Image URL" bar just below the regular typing field here on the forum. It takes me every bit of about 5 seconds to do once I find a pic from a search that I want to use for a post.

later ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That one had me laughing my A$$-OFF, because that is exactly what I went through with filling out some form "drop-down fields" earlier this morning on another site that had me going around in complete circles.... FOREVER!

That one cracked me up good!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LMAO!!!
I have saved this fart blast to my hardrive! Thanks!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire