Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Be a business! I was just reading Texas Governement Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Chapter 2006, Subchapter A. It requires TPWD to, when creating regulations that could cause an adverse economic effect on small businesses, draft an economic impact statement and a regulatory flexibility analysis. You have protections as a business and you have zero protections as a hobbyist. Many "hobbyists" are really businesses. If you sell offspring you are a business, you are commercial. And you should admit it. Some hobbyists prefer to "pretend" they are not businesses. They buy, sell and trade herps yet won't admit what they do. If you are a breeder you are a business. If you have a pet turtle you are a pet owner. We need to establish the herp industry as an industry. If not, we will keep losing to the AR academics, state biologists and others pushing the banning agenda.

Welkerii

Maybe folks don't want the tax issues involved with being a business. But I agree, government would be less likely to interfere with business owners than "hobbyists".
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

I thought about that but if you are a business and are making money on the side you could get in trouble for not paying your taxes. In the long run it helps the industry by allowing you and others to use their rights as businesses to fight the banning agenda. Wouldn't you rather pay some taxes then loose your right to collect, keep, breed and sell animals? Also, sales taxes can be passed on to the consumer. We don't charge a sales tax but we pay sales tax. We pay under $200. This is an option. Being legal and above board helps prevent black eyes to the industry as well. Just some thoughts.

Welkerii

Here in Fla. in order to be a business (or to sell any offspring legally for that matter) you need a permit from the fish and game commission. One of the problems with this permit is that you basically throw your 4th amendment right to unreasonable search seizure out the window as one of the provisions of the permit is that fish and game can come in and "inspect' your facilities at anytime they please. They actually used this tactic to gain entrance to a persons home in the Ocala area that other agencies were trying inspect for suspected animal abuse. They could not get a search warrant so they used his fwc permit to sell birds and had fwc go in for them......thanks but no thanks.....if and when I decide to start trying to breed to the point that I am a business I will talk to lawyers about limiting their access to my property. But since I only keep a handful of reptiles for my own personal interest at this time, I prefer to keep my 4th amendment rights protecting me from unreasonable search and seizure thank you very much. Having met a couple of the prime axeholes who run around calling themselves fish and game officers at a cfhs meeting several years back did not help fwc's case in that matter either. I wouldn't want either one of them on my property. I used to maintain my license up til that point in case I did sell anything I let it lapse after that.

I'd say for new comers, lay low. Dont be in eather one. Dont tell anyone anything. Dont "take a number". joe6pax

This is bad advice. You must certainly be legal (have all proper permits) and be taking care of your animals properly. Or else, you will be another black eye for this industry! Otherwise, if you want to be a recluse with just you and your animals then fine. But don't be doing business deals in the shadows.

Welkerii

Well staying in the shadows doesn't do anyone any good, not even you! What do you have to worry about if your animals are kept properly and you have no illegal animals? If you think that you are not going to be regulated then you are living in the stone ages. The USDA inspects the livestock industry and it helps protect the industry. The livestock industry is very rich and they couldn't stop regulation. Animal control inspects dog and cat owners. We will be regulated.

There is strength in numbers. The fact remains that businesses have protections and legal rights and hobbyists have very few. If you want to be all paranoid then that is on you. The industry needs to establish itself better and have legal pathways to do what we do. This will require everyone to step forward, admit what they do, why they do it and fight for the right to do so. This is just the sad reality. The good ole days are gone! Accept it!

If you want to stop the banning agenda you would be better served establishing yourself as a business. That is just a fact. If you want to hang yourself up (and the industry) because of the fact they might want to come check you out then that is silly unless you are doing illegal stuff. Plenty of pet owners keep their animals like crap and inspections are good.

The herp industry was founded by hobbyists yet this has evolved into businesses for many and is now a young industry. We are going to have to play the game and fight against the banning agenda to protect our rights. If you don't, then you are more then likely a wash or damaging. Hobbyists who don't sell offspring and give away their animals can say they are pet owners. That is fine but if you do shows, buy, sell and trade, breed, collect for others, or advertise on the internet you are a business with few exceptions. You should admit it and establish yourself as a small or micro business and fight for yours and everyone's rights. We need everyone invloved and businesses have more protections and rights.

Welkerii

Correct me if I'm wrong but according to tax codes if you sell/trade animals but you experience a net loss for more than a certain number of years in a row you cannot classify yourself as a bussiness.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Yes, this is true I believe but I am no accountant. I don't know what all the "tricks" are to stay a business. But everyone should make an effort to do so. Businesses have protections and thus can be used to stop the banning agenda. Hobbyists have zero protections.

Most breeders make money. You have almost zero dollars in a captive neonate offspring because you have to take care of the parents anyway. I am sure most breeders can show a profit.

I think I know where you are going with this. People who take trips to wild collect their breeding stock probably lose money thus they can't be a business? Yes, collectors who go after uncommon, specific species would probably show a loss. But they also don't collect all of what they see to maximize their trip. However, many collect "gas money" snakes to help offset costs. Two things here: One, the cost of wild caught animals should be a lot higher. And second, don't claim your collecting trip as an expense. If the goal is to show a profit so you can maintain being a business because it is good for you and the herp industry then that is what you should do.

Welkerii

You are right that I am, at least in part, alluding to those people who make collecting trips and sell for gas money. I make collecting trips but I don't sell anything I catch. I am one of those people who just collect very specific things. There are even some graybands I would let go, although that's rare.

I agree with you that bussinesses do have a louder voice but hobbyists have a strong voice as well. Hobbyists are ultimately where the money comes from that keeps bussinesses afloat. When hobbyists join together they have a very strong voice. We have been known to clog phone lines and swamp them with letters and that makes a very strong statement.

Another thing is most hobbyists cannot be a bussiness because they live in areas zoned residential. This is not easy to change as most people cannot afford to move into a mixed residential commercial zone or otherwise postition themselves to qualify for a bussiness permit. So alot of people don't have much choice.

All you can really expect is for people to get involved and do what they can. If they are a bussiness then sure, they should act as one. But if they really are not a bussiness they can still get involved by joining USARK, participating in surveys, writing letters, signing petitions, etc.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

For example, I would say the membership of the NRA is mostly hobbyists/non-businesses and I believe they have a good amount of clout with lawmakers.

I think it would be wise for all end users (hobbyists/customers) to make sure that those that have sold them animals, along with all the necessary ancillary husbandry products, speak loudly on their behalf.

Just my opinion.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You can run a business out of a residential house or apartment. Millions of people do it eveyday it's not illegal. Zoning says what type of business you can't run out of a house or apartment. If you rent, your lease may say something about what you can or can not do at your residence. Do you think a guy who owns and runs a construction business can't do so out of his home office? His work maybe a construction site but his office is at home. What about a woman who hits all the thrift stores, brings home a bunch of goodies and then sets up a second business on Ebay? You can legally run a business from a residence. My ex-wife use to edit court transcripts from home as her job. If you can legally keep, breed and sell herps out of your house, and you call yourself a hobbyist, then you can also legally be a business. If you can't then just being a hobbyist is illegal.

Yes, hobbyists can voice their opinion but they have no legal protections compared to a business owner. Further, politicans are more likely to support businesses then hobbyists. Also, regulatory agencies are legally bound to not hurt small businesses if it can be avoided. They are not legally bound to not hurt hobbyists. And if we are fighting against the banning agenda don't you want to do all you can?

Why not try to figure out ways to support the herp industry then trying to figure out ways not to?

Welkerii

Aaron is 100% correct-it would be worse than foolhardy for many small-time breeders and hobbyists to call attention to themselves in any way. A person who breeds reptiles in a spare room or the basement may or may not be breaking zoning laws and/or other local ordinances-but rest assured, once he is found out by neighbors, those laws will either be enforced if they exist already, or added if they don't! I've seen this happen time and again to fellow herpers.

Such hobbyists should give till it hurts to USARK AND to whatever state/local organizations are working for their interests. For example, here in Texas there are "some" who have not become members or contributed to the only statewide organization supporting herpers-Herp Conservation Unlimited (which by the way works closely with USARK)-at a time when such support is sorely needed.

These are the true "Herpocrites".
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I agree. All of the above, and more, happened to me when my city discovered I was raising herps in my basement and selling them to local pet stores and other hobbyists.
I found myself in a legal world of hurt, was fined hundreds of dollars for running a business in a residential area by the city and had to pay thousands in back "personal property' taxes that included high interest and penalties. All of my neighbors somehow found out about this and harassed me for years. My animals included burms, retics, and boas, which were not illegal at the time, but were soon made illegal to own. I sold my house and moved to another city and learned how to be secretive.
I would never again do anything to draw attention to myself.

My experience was -- collecting and reporting sales tax, city/county tried to collect property/inventory tax, and reporting to Texas Parks and Wildlife.
This was quite a while ago. Things are much worse now. Keeping books and hiring an accountant/bookkeeper...never got that far. Didn't care to know exactly how far in the hole I could go. Besides, as has been stated, IRS code won't allow too much of that.
It makes no sense to me to be represented as a money loosing enterprise with the Legislators.
Moved from the city to the country for fear of "the Villagers coming up the hill with torches in hand". There's way too much of people telling others how to behave behind closed doors in Austin. 180 degrees from the good old days.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

A much more realistic and favorable thing to do would be to become 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4). It seems the regulators love these guys and give them a get out of jail free card many times over.
Of course, there are a few that fly a bit too close to the sun and do fall from grace long and hard.
Just my opinion.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The situation regarding neighbors and what not maybe true. Then I would move from the neighborhood. You can't keep running and hiding. One of the main focuses of USARK should be creating leagl pathways for this industry to conduct its business. If you want to hide and do illegal things then you are just a black eye for this industry. If your neighbors are going to make trouble for you then it doesn't matter whether you are a business or a hobbyist. Further, how are your neighbors going to know you are a hobbyist or a business?

Personally, I would never join HCU. They are against the sale of wild caught herps and I support the right to sell wild caught herps. But oddly many of their members sell, trade or buy wild caught herps. Hmmmmm. HCU supports the idea of the White and Black List regulation in TX and I don't. They are counter to the herp industry in those regards in my opinion. USARK supports the right to sell wild caught herps and they support the right to collect any herp species not listed as Endangered or Threatened. Thus the position statements for each group are vastly different. USARK is pro-herp industry and HCU I would say is counter herp industry. Just my opinion.

Welkerii

Hmm-seems like the kind of advice that, if followed, might lead a lot of hobbyists to lose their collections through confiscations and forced sales. It strikes me that that is just the kind of advice a commercial collector and dealer, who has an interest in eliminating as much competition from private breeders and hobbyists as possible, might give. Fancy that.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

No, Brad I support the herp industry. The right to sustainably harvest any species not listed as Endangered or Threatened. And the right to sell wild caught and captive born herps. The right to possess venomous species, large constrictors and any herp (or exotic). I support creating legal pathways for all herpers. I do not support the banning agenda and I fight for herpers rights. All herpers, even you Brad!

Do you support me or others in the industry? You and some of your buddies have shown over and over again that you don't.

I try to do things that are positive for the industry. You, Brad, don't. I speak the truth (see above). You, Brad, don't. I support the herp industry. You try to find ways not to.

It is quite obvious. Good luck with that Brad.

Welkerii

But not surprising. Luckily, Texas herpers see through your self-serving personal agenda, Mike. It's the reason HCU boasts basically ALL the big names in both amateur and commercial herpetology in Texas-while you continue to wage your lonely and counterproductive campaign against us. Thanks for helping out the opposition.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

" Luckily, Texas herpers see through your self-serving personal agenda, Mike. "

In all fairness Brad, I've got to step in here and ask, "How long have you lived in Texas? Where did you originally come from and how long there?"

And I'm pretty sure my friend Aaron is not a Texas resident either.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've been herping Texas since 1985, finally moving here permanently in early 2007.

Why is this germaine? All the founders and officers of HCU are long-term or lifelong Texans, as are most of the membership. So what's your point?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Do you even need to ask?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I honestly don't understand your point here John-Yes I only recently moved to Texas full time, but I'm just an HCU member-the leadership of the organization is Texan. So what are you trying to say?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

That's correct I don't live in TX. I do have land there which I might retire on, or build a vacation home on.

I'm not being sarcastic here, can you point to any political or legislative actions taken or attempted by HCU that would have hurt the herp hobby or that you would have disagreed with? As far as I know the only legislation HCU has put forth is a sentence that would have ammended the road ban so that the collection of reptiles, amphibians, arachnids and insects would be excluded from it. There is not much there to disagree with IMHO. None of this other stuff, ie pushing the white list, restricting commercial collection and banning the collection and breeding of box turtles has actually materialized from HCU. So far it's all just been rumor and conjecture that at some indeterminate time in the future those things might take place. But it's been quite a long time since HCU formed and so far those things have not ever been proposed by HCU. The only things that I know of HCU actually wanting to limit or ban are some types of turtle traps and the gassing of rattlesnake dens.

I'm not saying this describes you personally but I don't think it's fair nor productive to put down HCU for "only caring about the roadban". The roadban is a significant issue and nobody else is doing near as much as HCU is about it. I have been hunting TX roads for 14 years and it's a huge part of my life. Qiute a few other herpers feel the same way. Who else can we turn to to overturn it?
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www.hcu-tx.org/

"None of this other stuff, ie pushing the white list, restricting commercial collection and banning the collection and breeding of box turtles has actually materialized from HCU. So far it's all just been rumor and conjecture that at some indeterminate time in the future those things might take place."

This is pure banning agenda and bad for the industry. These are sell out positions. You want to ban the breeding of box turtles? You have shown over and over again that all you care about is yourself. This proves it. You have shown everyone here on this forum that I am correct. Thanks for the help. HCU is bad for the industry.

Welkerii

I think you misunderstood. I did not say those things are going to happen. I said that is what some people said was going to happen and it never did. Then I said that those accusations have proven to be nothing but rumor and conjecture.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Okay, cause it reads like HCU is considering doing those things at some point in the future. I thought you guys went off the deep end.

Welkerii

n/p

As I understand it, it's true that HCU does not function as a promoter of wc sales. What they promote is responsible recreational collecting. However, as far as I know HCU members are free to join other organizations, such as USARK, which do promote sale of wc. And HCU members can support wc sales on their own, or in any way whenever such issues may come up in their own states or anywhere. HCU just does not use it's funds to promote wc sales.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

And anyone claiming HCU OPPOSES sale of wc animals is simply lying.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

No. They don't SUPPORT it which is the same thing. If you don't support something you are against it. You are not neutral.

Welkerii

"Do not support" and "oppose" are not even close to the same-and it is not against any rule of HCU for members to sell wc herps-and many do. Would those people be members of an organization that was working against them?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Here's what I think -- This Elitist "Mine don't stink, but yours sure does" attitude has NO place in the discussion.
You really don't want to hear my thoughts on HCU.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

No organization is perfect-orgs are made up of human beings, after all. I'm personally a member of the NRA, though I don't subscribe to every little position they hold. Same with Trout Unlimited, Turtle Survival Alliance and others I support.

I understand the suspicion of organizations, but the plain fact is that the only hope we have of "reversing our recent reversals" lies in banding together and lobbying. IN MY OPINION, if you're not helping with the current fight we have in this state, then you have no right to complain. AT LEAST it would be nice to avoid tearing down those who are willing to do this hard and unpleasant work. And in this state that, at the moment, means HCU.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad, you guys ask for it. I mean really. I have been slandered and lied about by many in HCU just because I call you out on your hypocritical and agenda based stances. Some of your members are real pieces of work. And when I do call you out, you all gang up on me because I am the only one (besides John now) who takes the time to. Then you guys start name calling and making slanderous statements. I fully support over turning the road ban because it is wrong. It is legal in most other states but the biggest reason is because it is sustainable harvest. You don't need a bunch of studies to know this. Also, it is extremely counter productive and virtually impossible to field collect alterna so it is basically a ban.

You guys should stand for the industry not against it. Just because many at TPWD are agenda pushers doesn't mean you support bad regualtions. If you guys would just admit your short comings, not act all high and mighty and support the industries stances you might get more support. I tried to explain all this to you guys three years ago and all I got was slander. Who wants to be in a group that does all this and treats people bad?

You guys could have done a better job in the design of your position statements. You could have said that some of your members sell wild caught but we support doing so in a sustainable manner. You could say that some members don't sell wild caught. And then just be nicer, non-arrogant people.

Welkerii

Respectfully, Mike, I was going to drop this, but you are really revising history. You were INVITED to join HCU at the beginning-I know because I was one of those who invited you. But you declined-I don't know why, none of my business. But above you're just repeating the same things you always say and I just finished refuting-the only agenda HCU pushes is that decided upon by the membership, and if you were a member you'd have some say in that. To my knowledge, HCU does not currently support ANY regulations, so what do you mean when you say we do?

if we stand against the industry, as you state above-why does USARK support us? Are they naive or misled in some way-or is it more likely you are the one mistaken in this case?

I know you had personal issues with a couple former officers, but that was then, this is now-you should try HCU again and see for yourself.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad, I will not even consider joining the group until the Constitution is re-written. It is bad for any hobbyist and especially bad for a group of hobbyists to support the banning agenda. It is plainly written in the Constitution that you guys do not support the sale of wild caught herps. This is totally unacceptable to me. It is sell out agenda posturing to me.

Your ex-president stated that HCU supports the idea of the White and Black Lists. The Lists are crap. I did my Masters thesis on comparing the White and Black List to natural history and herp industry data it failed to come close on natural history data for most species. It scored a 56% for four characters, that is a big fat "F". It is a bad regulation. It is regulation just for the sake of regulation. We already have a system in place to protect species it is called an Endangered and Threatened List. They should have put in some bag limits for species if they were concerned not prohibit commercial harvest of Black Listed species.

A member of your group was part of the Box Turtle Partnership of Texas. They succeeded in stopping the captive reproduction and sale in native Texas turtles (except the food turtles which were the ones going to China by the tens of thousands) by pushing the banning agenda. That is unacceptable to me. You can't go from unregulated harvest to no harvest which is what TPWD did basically (I won't argue with you about the 6 of each species you can collect because you can't reproduce them and sell offspring).

You have or had members that spread lies about me and my business. You guys attacked me and called me names on the forums. When what I was talking about was 100% true = you guys will need to buy and sell wild caught and your members do buy and sell wild caught now (back then and now). You have members who buy, sell and trade wild caught herps and then go to the TPWD commission meeting and bad mouth commercial people. That is hypocritical sell out behavior. Why don't your members admit what they do? Why do they pretend that they don't? It is this elitist self serving attitude and total disregard for others or the effects that it has on the industry that is unacceptable to me.

I am not saying that you did any of this. You sure do defend them though and you are a member so this makes you look bad in that regard. I am not saying that every member of HCU is bad or that they are not fighting the good fight on the road ban. I am saying the way you guys set up your Constitution and treated me and other folks is unnacceptable. Your positions are bad for the industry in an indirect way. Not admitting what many members do and then bad mouthing fellow herpers for calling you on it is not good. You should stand strong against the banning agenda. We collect and sell wild caught because of x, y, and z and its sustainable! Rather then giving in to TPWD about the selling of wild caught herps or the idea of the White and Black list regulation.

USARK is not as picky as me and they need all the help they can get. And they see that we all need to band together. I think we need to all band together too. I tried to explain this to you guys three years ago. But you have to support the industry platform. We have great science based arguements for the need and the use of sustainable harvest. If animals are sustainably harvested it doesn't matter if they are sold. It doesn't matter if everyone does it or not. Everyone needs to support the right to sustainably harvest any species not listed as Endangered or Threatened. Everyone needs to support the right to sell sustainably harvested wild caught herps. It is the only way to leave the door open for new blood and support businesses and hobbyists that do this. We are all in the same boat even HCUers!

Welkerii

You can play defintion semantics all day long. The fact remains that your group does not support the sale of wild caught. That is counter to the herp industry who does support the sale of wild caught.

That is the million dollar question: Why would people join a group that is working against them?

Answer: Because they don't see how kissing TPWD's bottom on the wild caught issue may come back to bite them in the butt? Because they don't realize that they are selling out the herp industry? Because all they care about is road collecting gray-bands and nothing else matters? Because they are going to do whatever they want anyways because they try and keep their activities a secret?

You guys are not trying to shut down the sale of wild caught that I know of. You just don't support it. Many herpers do and so does the industry. We understand the necessity of doing so. Keeping that door open. Maybe your folks just don't get it.

Ask Texas citizens who use to breed and collect native Texas turtles how they are doing these days. Then you might start to understand.

Welkerii

Personally I never saw HCU's stance of not actively supporting commercial harvest as brownnosing. I think there is only a small number of indivuduals within TPWD that are actively opposed tokeeping herps. I have gotten the impression that there are many within TPWD who don't oppose herpers but are just going along to get along so to speak. And there are some who are actually symathetic. One of the problems is that the ones who hate herpers are doing all they can to indoctrinate their peers and create a culture of hatred against herpers. One of the things that the ones who hate us do is portray all herpers as solely out to make a buck. They spread this inaccurate characterization of us to their peers within TPWD, to other LE in TX and to legislators.

From what I have seen in my 14 years of collecting west TX most field collecters living in or visiting TX do not collect mainly for money. Although as you said, some do make gas money and some do end up eventually selling some of animals that they collected, either because they have established the breeding colonies the set out to establish or because they want to persue other projects.

HCU's choice of not actively supporting commercial collecting is more than just brownnosing. It helps to shoot down the claims of those few within TPWD that hate us and say that all herpers are in it solely for the money. In my opinion that's good for everyone because it helps TPWD get a more accurate picture of what's going on.

If there are 100 herpers hunting TX and TPWD thinks that every single one of them is collecting as many herps as they can find and sell, then TPWD is going to think there is a much bigger potential impact than they would if it can be shown that 90 out of those 100 herpers are only taking a one or two target "trophies" out of the wild. If only a small percent of hunters are taking substantial amounts of herps then that shows TPWD that there is alot less to be concerned about than they may have thought. So in my opinion HCU's stance serves a very valuable funtction. That stance really does not hinder an organization like USARK from supporting commercial collecting. It also raises the notion that as a whole, herpers might be giving more to the state of TX than they are taking.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

You guys cast Mike in the same light as the TP&W folks you claim are against/misrepresent you, when Mike is really on your side.

You guys need to get off your high horse, grow up, and get real.

Your track record of accomplishments and that of alienating stakeholders in all directions speak for themselves.

I'm sure you're all good people with good intentions, and a valid cause, but attacking and belittling all other viewpoints isn't very productive.

You're supposed to build relationships/cooperation by first finding common ground, not by alienating others.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John, evidently you were not around back in 2007 to see what led up to all this-otherwise you wouldn't be saying we did not try to include everyone. But unfortunately, as Mike stated in his post above-"It's Mike's way or the highway". Is there ANY organization you know of which would change their Constitution at the behest of a single (Now two, I guess) non-member? Surely that is the very definition of unreasonable.

Bringing up HCU's alleged record of "failure" is disingenuous-you are of course aware that last session was cut short by the id card controversy, and our bill was not the only one to get timed out-not HCU's fault, correct? At least we were doing something, not sitting around on the sidelines complaining and throwing rocks.

Both of you should drop the "Play the game my way or I'm taking my ball home" attitude and get an open mind. Face it-a LOT of herpers have seen firsthand the abuses of commercial collectors and are not comfortable with unreservedly supporting same. I know I have. HCU is a CONSERVATION organization as well as advocate for herp hobbyists' right to enjoy wild herps in the way they see fit, consistent with the well-being of the resource. I believe there is a way to go forward consistent with both goals.

The way to go is with science-based endangered/threatened lists and reasonable (conservatively low) bag limits for the rest. Surely most folks concerned with herps can accept that-at least as a middle ground(It does not surprise me that the few commercial collectors still around might have trouble with that. Animal rights/protectionist folks will be equally unsuportive. To me it's a good sign when the extremes on both sides are disgruntled.). If not, then yes, you probably don't belong in HCU. But if you do believe both in our rights AND conservation of the resource, then you belong in HCU, because that indeed is what the organization is about.

Just my opinion-telling it like I see it. Let the stoning begin.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad, You are beginning to bother me. Don't tell me I wasn't around back in 2007. You're a history revisionist just like the AR folks. You've got a lot of nerve. I was herping in California, Oregon, Washington, Florida, and the Bahamas in the early 1960's. Mexico in the 70's. Does that make me a bona fide herper representing there? Give me a break. I've been herping in Texas since 1958.

Do you even know how much I've contributed to HCU?

How you get away with that free advertising signature of yours is beyond me. That is clearly against the TOS.

Just drop it!

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Thanks for not addressing my points-which were not personal but concerned HCU and its mission.

I think you're becoming emotionally involved in what should be a rational discussion. I know I did not say anything one way or another about your personal qualifications-and nor did I or do I claim to represent Texas herpers, or anyone other than myself. Reread your post-you're just lashing out now, and frankly it's beneath you.

As for my sig line-half the folks on here list the species they work with on their signature, and it is in no way against the TOS. Really a low blow. So much for my "friend".
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

on this train wreck of a thread, and probably this forum.

My original posts were about issues:

1. I maintain that Mikes original premise-that hobbyists should "come out of the closet"- would be disastrously stupid if most hobbyists were to follow it. I stand by that opinion.

2. I wished to clear up a factual misrepresentation to the effect that "HCU is against commercial collectors". The fact is that HCU neither opposes or lobbies for such commercial businesses.I don't see how the excerpt of the Constitution Mr. Welker kindly supplied could be otherwise interpreted. But that's just me.

That's all. Feel free to continue to debate all this other stuff among yourselves. Or call me a Yankee infiltrator. I won't see it because I'm joining the exodus. Obviously a diversity of opinion is no longer welcome here.

Oh John-I am sorry my sig offended you-I changed it. You should have said something sooner.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Boas, Pythons, Colubrids, Tortoises and Turtles

1. Fact: Businesses have more protections and rights then hobbyists. Brad promotes being illegal and staying in the shadows.

2. Fact: Brad brought HCU into this discussion. Fact: Brad brought commercial collection into the discussion. I said HCU was against selling wild caught. Fact: Brad wants to play semantics about defintions when we all know what “does not support means.”

Welkerii

I am sorry you feel that way but I can understand how some of the heated "discussions" would result in you being put off.
All I can say is look at the legislation that HCU has sponsored. It does not bear any resemblance to the claims Mike has been making against HCU. After all the time(about 4 years now) that HCU has been in existence there has been ample time for Mike's predictions to come true. They simply haven't. I think if you look at Mike's early claims then look at the reality of what has actually been done(or at least attempted) I think you might understand why some of the members had less than kind words for Mike. He was accusing HCU of having alterior motives, that of wanting to shut down commercial collecting. It's a failing to react the way some people did towards Mike but the record of what HCU has done should prove that Mike's claims were false. I do believe that Mike believed he was telling the truth at the time, that is why I have always tried to be respectful towards him but his claims about HCU plotting to shut down commercial collecting are not true and that needs to be made known.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron, I have said no such thing. I have never said that HCU was actively pursuing legislation to ban commercial collection. Never once. You are making things up. It appears that for some strange reason you do not understand what I have been saying. Clear your mind, open your mind and try to comprehend:

Let’s go through this one more time. Your Constitution plainly states you do not support the collection of herps for the purpose of sale. This is counter to the herp industry who does support the wild collection of herps for the purpose of sale. Thus you are selling out the industry by this ONE statement. Do you understand? It is counter to many hobbyists, businesses and dealers who do this and this includes HCU members. It is hypocritical to have this statement in your Constitution while your members are selling wild caught. Do you understand? I haven’t claimed anything. I have proven over and over again that HCU members buy, sell and trade wild caught herps in direct contridiction to your Constitution. I can name names all day long but Kingsnake TOS prevent me from doing that (note to trollers: Read back over the Herp Law and Gray-band forums search OHI). Just that one statement in your Constitution and the actions of your members particpating in this activity is what I have been talking about. Do you understand?

Second your ex-president said on a public forum that HCU supports the White and Black List. The White and Black List is banning agenda. One of your members was deeply involved in outlawing catching, breeding and selling native Texas turtles (mainly box turtles but now they are all banned) which was included in the White and Black List regulation. This is banning agenda. And this same person bought wild caught snakes from a commercial collector and then went before the TPWD commission and bad mouthed commercial people. Do you understand why this is hypocritical and sell out behavior? You guys try to butt kiss TPWD and academia in hopes they will not take your rights away. You act like you are doing it for the good of the turtles. Well it's not good for the turtles. They are not being bred in captivity. Thus no safety net. Ask all the box, map and mud turtle folks how they feel now that their rights have been taken away. Pretend the ban was gray-bands instead of turtles and tell me how you feel? Do you understand?

HCU’s alterior movtives are to “pretend” that your members do not sell wild caught herps by putting that statement in your Constitution. This was done in hopes of appeasing TPWD to get the road ban over turned so you can collect gray-bands. That is just fact. Do you understand?

I have never said you were seeking legislation for anything. You are just to blinded by your mixed up agenda to understand what I am saying. You will never see or admit your short comings because all you care about is getting the road ban over turned. You do not care how that effects the industry, herp businesses and hobbyists who do not support your positions. As evidenced by your Constitution and your support of the White and Black List regulation. Do you understand?

There is no use arguing with either you or Brad because you will never see reality because all you care about is getting the road ban over turned. That is why you guys formed HCU in the first place. As soon as you get the road ban over turned HCU “will fizzle out like a bad fart” (borrowed from Sam Kinson).

Do you, now, understand what I have been saying? Not do you agree with what I said but do you understand what I said?

Welkerii

I say ban commercial collection and you say banning agenda. What's the difference? You keep saying HCU has a banning agenda, if I took that to mean banning commercial collection how can you blame me?

Another thing is you are taking things that members have done with their own time and money and blaming it on HCU. What one or a few members do on their own time does not consitute an HCU agenda. As I understand it the member you spoke of did not use HCU to ban collection of box turtles. He did it through another organization that had nothing to do with HCU. HCU has never sought to ban collection box turtles. If a member of USARK was for banning collection box turtles and pursued it on their own time or with a separate organization would you condem USARK even if USARK wasn't for banning box turtles? Hence your thing about the safety net doesn't apply either because HCU is not seeking to ban the breeding of box turtles either.

Nor is it hypocritical for an HCU member to sell a wc animal. That sentence does not tell members what they can and can't do on their own time. It tells people that HCU, the organization, does not promote wc sales. What that means is that HCU, the organization, does not use it's influence or money to promote the sales of wc's. I understand that you don't like the fact that HCU doesn't promote commercial collecting but that doesn't justify you making personal attacks on certain members by calling them hypocrites.

You are using the things that members do on their own time and with their own money, persueing their own agenda that is separate from anything HCU does, and applying it to HCU. That is not fair to HCU.

As far as the white and black list, it is possible to support the concept of it and still disagree with what goes in what catagory. The member you spoke of who you say supports it has also said he only supports prohibiting the collection of a species only when they have real data that shows a species needs protection from collection. That is a very significant point that adds context; by you leaving that out it totally changes the meaning of what he said which is also not fair.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

You still don't get it. You are justifying. Never mind.

Welkerii

Aaron’s comments in quotes:

“I say ban commercial collection and you say banning agenda. What's the difference?”

You said, that I said, HCU was trying to actively ban commercial collection. I never said that. I said that HCU does not support the collection of herps for the purpose of sale and that is selling out the herp industry because the herp industry does support the collection of herps for the purpose of sale. Additionally, I might add, banning the sale of wild caught is the banning agenda so if you don’t support it what does that say? I said the White and Black list is banning agenda. We already have a regulation in place that protects species it is called the Endangered and Threatened List. We do not need a White and Black List. It is regulation for the sake of regulation thus banning agenda. Further, when one looks at the White and Black List it is easy to see that the species popular in the herp hobby are on the White List (should they be?) while species that are not popular in the hobby are on the Black List (with the exception of turtles). This was done so nobody would [bleep] about the White and Black List. This shows that it is a regulation just for the sake of regulation. And many amphibian species that are abundantly common and widespread are on the Black List. This shows regulation for the sake of regulation because these species have no collection threat. HCU supports the idea of the White and Black Lists thus they support the banning agenda.

“You keep saying HCU has a banning agenda, if I took that to mean banning commercial collection how can you blame me?”

No, I said HCU supports “the banning agenda” not that they have a banning agenda or that they are pursuing a banning agenda. Because HCU does not support wild herp collection for the purpose of sale. This position is held by many academics and many at TPWD. They don’t believe a wild animal should be sold. Their beliefs or moral judgments should not interfere with management decisions. Since the herp industry does support the right to sell wild caught herps. Then taking away the right to do so would be a ban. The “banning agenda” is any action taken against the herp industry that would prevent it from functioning. We can expand on that definition over time. I didn’t say you guys were actively pursing banning commercial collection. Never have. I am saying you support the banning agenda by your stances. Not that you have specific legislation you are seeking. I blame you because you are not reading or not understanding what I am saying. I have repeated the same things for three years now. I have many folks who say they agree with me, that I speak the truth and that they understand what I am saying but you guys seem to be in denial or I suck as a writer or both.

“Another thing is you are taking things that members have done with their own time and money and blaming it on HCU. What one or a few members do on their own time does not constitute an HCU agenda.”

I never said what members do is an HCU agenda. I said HCU supports the banning agenda by supporting the White and Black List. I have also said that you are a hypocrite if you buy, sell and trade herps and are a member of HCU. HCU does not support the collection of wild caught for the purpose of sale. I blame HCU for trying to kiss TPWD butt by selling out the herp industry.

“As I understand it the member you spoke of did not use HCU to ban collection of box turtles. He did it through another organization that had nothing to do with HCU. HCU has never sought to ban collection box turtles.”

What I am saying is the HCU is full of hypocrites. This particular member is not only a hypocrite but a sell out as well. He supports the banning agenda. What I am saying is that your group has a disproportionately high amount of hypocrites and sell outs who support the banning agenda. It is not about HCU itself it is about its members. Now, I know there are some members of HCU that actually don’t sell wild caught. They are true to that resolution in your Constitution but many of those folks support the banning agenda by supporting box turtles being on the Black List. So most of your members are either hypocrites or sell outs or both, in my opinion.

“If a member of USARK was for banning collection box turtles and pursued it on their own time or with a separate organization would you condemn USARK even if USARK wasn't for banning box turtles?”

No because of what I explained above. A disproportionately high amount of HCU members are either hypocrites or sell outs. USARK supports the entire industry where HCU doesn’t. If you go by position statements and constitutions USARK supports all aspects of the herp industry whereas HCU doesn’t. Now, both organizations will take any member that pays. It has to do with the moral convictions and the stances of the members. Since many HCUers buy or sell wild caught they SHOULD not join but they did. This shows what kind of people joined HCU.

“Hence your thing about the safety net doesn't apply either because HCU is not seeking to ban the breeding of box turtles either.”

The ban on captive propagation of native Texas turtles (safety net) has nothing to do with HCU specifically other then the members who supported it and the banning agenda.

“Nor is it hypocritical for an HCU member to sell a wc animal. That sentence does not tell members what they can and can't do on their own time. It tells people that HCU, the organization, does not promote wc sales. What that means is that HCU, the organization, does not use it's influence or money to promote the sales of wc's.”

If you join an organization you do so because you support their position statements. HCU is not an organization with no members. It is a reflection of its members. So one would think that only people who don’t buy or sell wild caught would join but that is not the case. Further, the decision to not support the sale of wild caught was done purely to kiss TPWD butt. This is quite obvious since many members buy or sell wild caught. Now, I understand that there are some members who don’t sell wild caught but a majority do. So members would rather sell out the herp industry and kiss TPWD butt then admit what they do? That is hypocritical and sell out behavior. Why don’t they stand up for their activities? Why don’t they stand up against the banning agenda? That’s my question!

“I understand that you don't like the fact that HCU doesn't promote commercial collecting but that doesn't justify you making personal attacks on certain members by calling them hypocrites.”

I call them like I see them. I will fight to protect the herp industry from outsiders or insiders who are selling us down the river. I am upset with HCUers because they are sell outs and hypocrites. That is bad for the herp industry especially now that we are under attack from AR leaning academics, biologists and AR groups themselves. I am also upset with HCUers because when I proved my points on the forums. I got slandered and lies spread about me and other rude behavior. Not only are most members hypocrites and sell outs but they are “not nice people” too. All just because I was correct. I told you guys you would need to buy and sell wild caught. But you guys claimed you didn’t. Now you say that the Constitution is not a rule preventing members from selling wild caught. You guys are back pedaling.

“You are using the things that members do on their own time and with their own money, pursuing their own agenda that is separate from anything HCU does, and applying it to HCU. That is not fair to HCU.”

Again HCU is a reflection of its members. The evidence is overwhelming. You say you don’t support the sale of wild caught, wink, wink to appease TPWD. You support the White and Black List to appease TPWD wink, wink. Meanwhile your members are buying and selling wild caught. Meanwhile turtle dealers and breeders got screwed.

“As far as the white and black list, it is possible to support the concept of it and still disagree with what goes in what category.”

Yes, it is but the concept is wrong and as I explained above we already have an Endangered and Threatened List. Regulation for the sake of regulation.

“The member you spoke of who you say supports it has also said he only supports prohibiting the collection of a species only when they have real data that shows a species needs protection from collection.”

If they could prove that it needed protection then they would have enough data to get it listed Endangered or Threatened. The data is not there. Further, reasonable bag limits could have been put in place rather then going from one extreme to another. That is over regulation and banning agenda. It is well known that academia had been pushing the banning agenda for turtles. I have heard misleading and false statement from them in regards to number of clutches per year and number of years until sexual maturity. They say that turtles can’t be sustainably harvested. That is a load of BS. And you guys believe them. Why not put in some reasonable bag limits until they can conduct in depth studies? Instead of banning agenda, unacceptable!

“That is a very significant point that adds context; by you leaving that out it totally changes the meaning of what he said which is also not fair.”

No, because the entire White and Black List concept is garbage. We already have lists they are called Endangered and Threatened.

Aaron, you know what you and Brad’s problem is? You let in the herpocrites to your group. I can understand you and him blindly following academia’s AR agenda but you no darn well that the sale of wild caught issue is big. You have said before that you did it to show TPWD that all the people in west Texas are not commercial collectors. They get the collecting logs and they know who does what. Except those that don’t report what they do. This needs to change. Almost all the Texas commercial dealers report. It is the out of state ones that don’t. It is also the hobbyist collectors that don’t. You also know darn well that the problem is not that you sell an animal but how many you take. You also know darn well that almost everyone collecting west Texas is not over harvesting. You guys should have picked some better position statements instead of using the Ducks Unlimited format. They don’t catch the ducks alive, breed and sell them. You also shouldn’t have tried to keep folks activities a secret. By not standing up for sustainable harvest of any species not listed as Endangered or Threatened, supporting the right to sell wild caught and proudly supporting the herp industry you have yourselves in a pickle. We must always keep the door open to sustainably collect and sell all herps not listed Endangered or Threatened.

Welkerii

And I thought having to listen to Alices's restaurant today was boring! You wouldn't be bored if you were not in the constant peursuit of conflict. And by the way "HAPPY" Thanksgiving. The blackeye kid

Funny with the Arlo reference. No, not in pursuit of conflict at all. I just call out hypocrite, sell out and bad advice giving herpers. If you can't see why it is important to openly support the herp industry then I don't know what to say. I think you are just upset because of what I said about your post.

Welkerii

Nothing stops an HCU member from openly supporting all aspects of the hobby. You see me do it all the time on my own and with USARK even though I do not take anything back from TX to sell and even though I do not keep boas, pythons or venomous.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

That's great! Now if we can just get you to come around about the negative aspects of the HCU this will all have been worth it.

Welkerii

There is a slight problem in relying on the Endangered Species Act (ESA) as a method to protect a species across it's entire range. The problem is that the ESA would allow extinctions in many portions of the range before the population would be considered to be in jeopardy. So if you don't care whether or not a species remains in as much of its historical range as possible, then the ESA is fine, but if it matters to whether or not a species becomes extinct in large portions of it's range then a different system is needed.
For example, it would probably require corn snakes to go extinct in most of the states outside of Florida before they would reach a point before they would be considered for the ESA. Personally I think the loss of the variations seen in areas (like New Jersey) to be a problem.

I'm not for a total ban on collecting (commercial or otherwise) but we also have to keep in mind that there have been documented problems with collecting over the years ranging from the complaints that originated after Snakes and Snake Hunting was published to the loss of Gonisaurus luii from the site from which it was originally described; a span of more than 40 years. There has to be some sort of middle ground, but this requires studies on the species in question and to understand the recruitment rates of the populations as well habitat protection.

Some thoughts,

Ed

I agree but I was referring to state Endangered and Threatened lists not the Federal ESA. Maybe I should have clarified. I have also stated that for those species that they are concerned about they can institute some reasonable bag limits rather then an out right ban. Further, you never want to ban captive propagation. You can institute other management tools like limits or restrictions on where you can collect, trapping methods and what age classes you can collect. I was also directly talking about the White and Black List which has many species on the Black List with no collection threat, wideranges, and are abundantly common. That is regulation just for the sake of regulation. Other issues with protecting a species just because it has a limited range include: the gray banded king, mottled rock rattlesnake and green ratsnake that are protected in New Mexico because of limited range. A large majority of the habitat they occur in is inaccessable combined with their cryptic nature guarantee they can never be over collected thus protection is not warrented. I firmly believe that if a species cannot be sustainably harvested in some number then it probably should be listed as Endangered and Threatened at the state level.

Welkerii

If you meant all along to support a state list of T&E I didn't understand that. But that still leaves me to wonder why you don't just focus on getting stuff moved around in the white and black list into the catagories where you want them to be, instead of attacking the list itself. Is that because you think without the list it would take so much time to study each animal individually that in the meantime they could be collected?
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www.hcu-tx.org/

The concept of a White and Black is completely flawed. It is regulation for the sake of regulation as explained previously. You obviously don’t read my posts thoroughly. Please go read why it is flawed. We already have a protected list it is called the Endangered and Threatened List. There are criteria that need to be met for a species to get listed. I am looking for data. I already know that many in academia have a banning agenda. I have worked with many academics and have seen what they write. Thus, just because some academic or a group of academia say a species needs to be protected doesn’t make it fact. There are numerous examples of academia pushing agenda and trying to seek grant funding. Examples include the python climate paper and SREL python study. Older examples include the snail darter (fish) and the Tellico Dam Project on the Little Tennessee River (read up on it). So before they take away my rights to harvest an animal I want some credible data and I want to eliminate AGENDA.

I believe that any species that is not listed either Endangered or Threatened should be allowed to be harvested in some number. If a species can’t handle harvest then it most certainly should be listed Endangered or Threatened. If it can’t handle any harvest then they should have the data or be able to get the data to get it listed. Now, I understand that getting species listed isn’t easy and we don’t want to cause the extinction of any species. The Black List just bans these species without data. Further, I know for a fact that many species on the Black List are widespread and common thus it is obvious to me that it is AGENDA. But let’s say there is a species on the list that they are concerned about but they don’t have the data to get it listed. Why don’t we put some bag limits in place? Why don’t we use other wildlife management tools? Why ban it? It doesn’t make since. Also, since I did my Masters thesis on the White and Black List. I know that many species on the White List maybe shouldn’t be there. So the whole concept is just bad. Species that should be listed as Endangered or Threatened should be. I don’t think any of the species come close except maybe the Plateau Earless Lizard. We can use management for those that they are concerned with. Then for those species which we don’t need to worry about we don’t need to worry. So we don’t need a White and Black List, we need management. Hint: This will also create herp jobs.

Oh yes if a hobbyist, zoo, museum, or other citizen wants a species that is not listed then yes I want to collect it for them. That is PART of what I do for a living. Captive propagation is conservation. Many hobbyists were the first individuals to figure out how to take care of and breed many species. No species in the herp hobby has ever gone extinct. In fact we make more of the species. So yes I encourage collection for captive propagation. Further, since no one is really doing diddly about stopping habitat destruction and the impacts of roads. Yes I support collection and captive propagation. All species including Endangered and Threatened should be completely harvested from areas around cities that are going to be developed. Cities have 15 to 20 year development plans and these species are just killed so yes I support collection and captive propagation. You can’t have captive propagation without harvest in the first place.

Many states also use “species of special concern” to take away my rights to harvest. They usually list these species as such to avoid actual management. Thus SSC needs to go away. And FYI most states hardly have enough resources to protect Endangered species. Threatened and SSC species are basically ignored thus if they were at least allowed to be captively produced they would not go extinct. So SSC species should be managed with bag limits rather then banning and wildlife agencies might want to consider harvesting some Threatened species and placing them with private sector breeders. Another benefit of that approach is that the private citizen pays for the care of that species so the tax payers don’t have to. Arizona Fish and Game is over loaded with displaced Gila Monsters. They should be placed in the private sector.

Welkerii

It wasn't clear in your posts that you meant each state's ESA list. It did look as if you were referring to the fed ESA (which is the one called the ESA).

I don't have any personal experience with those three species of snake in the wild but perhaps we should be pushing for bag limits (or even a tagged take (ala deer or turkey hunting in a number of states) as some populations may not be able to sustain a yearly take on them. For example, due to changes in predation levels (raccoons), removal of any adult female blanding's turtles from a local population can reduce the recruitment rate to the point that the population is non-viable in the long run. This is one of the problems with some of the herp populations, is that unless there is some method of monitoring the population, you can have what looks to be a thriving population but is really a declining population. The average longevity can hide this for many years (this is common with box turtles in areas that have been fragmented by development).

Some comments,

Ed

Yes, we are going to lose some poulations to habitat destruction and fragmentation. If a population is isolated to such a great extent that natural predators can cause this much damage then I would say that population is doomed.

Additionally with recruitment basically completely stopped that population is doomed. Not to mention the inbreeding issues. We will lose some populations whether they are collected or not. Without creating corridors for recruitment and gene flow some of these populations will just go bye bye. Maybe the remaining specimens should be collected and placed in a captive breeding program so we can preserve that gene pool.

Yes, bag limits would work on many species they are concerned with. The problem lies in determining what bag limits? Often times the regulatory agency seeks advice from the academic getting all the grant money to study the species and they suggest unreasonably low bag limits because they really want to stop all harvest if it was up to them.

I think it is wise to get advice from wildlife science and wildlife management folks. Often times Ph.D. herpetologists really are not the best folks to ask about management issues. I would also certainly have herp industry folks involved in the process to offset the "banning agenda."

Welkerii

Fragmentation is a problem only if there is insufficient habitat to sustain an stable population for the long term. Keep in mind that most species are not uniformily located across thier range map, they tend to be found in fragmented populations within that range... often with population sinks surrounding the range (this is particularly true of amphibians).

Gene flow doesn't always have to be constant. I'd have to look for the references but I think (stressing think here) that in some box turtle populations the addition of one male to a population was sufficient gene flow for the population.

Ed

I totally agree. It is way harder to get a species listed Federally than it is for States to enact protection. For one states are much closer to their own species local situations and better poised to study them, with State biologists, through colleges, etc. Also a State can enact less restrictive types of protection early on that can ultimately reduce or eliminate the need for total Federal protections. I don't always agree with what, when and how a State protects it's animals but I agree with the need for States to be involved.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Also it is way easier for hobbyists, breeders and even commercial collecters to work with States and influence their descisions than it is to work with or influence the Feds.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I am not just a commercial collector. I am also a degreed academic and published herpetologist. I am also a former zoo herpetologist. You throw that term around like they are everywhere and that is all that they do. If you sell or trade one wild caught animal that you collected you are a commercial collector. I keep and breed herps and rodents. Most of the money I make comes from rodents. So I am really a rodent breeder. Most hobbyists that are commercial collectors are also hobbyists and breeders. Then there are dealers. They are often times breeders as well. There are very few people who are strictly commercial collectors. You have a negative bias that I think is becoming quite clear.

Welkerii

Nothing you said refutes anything in my post. You're still just taking individuals personal thoughts and actions and trying to connect them to HCU. There is nothing wrong with individuals having differing opinions on things that the organization is not designed to address.

The facts are still that some members individually would like to see box turtle collection banned and some members individually would like to see them collectable. HCU the organization has not supported either side, except to encourage members to participate in studies by reporting sightings, etc. That is support of science, not support of laws. Personally I think box turtles should be collectable in small yearly amounts and that there should be unlimited captive breeding and then what you want to do with them is up to you.

Some members individually support the idea of the white and black list and some members individually don't. HCU the organization has not supported either side except to inform members of studies that they can participate in. Again that is support of science not laws. I don't have strong feelings either way on the white and black list but I do believe in states rights to study and protect, if the data supports it, above and beyond the federal T&E lists. This is more a states rights issue to me than a herp issue. I believe in limited federal regulations and think the states should have more authority over themselves than the feds do because residents of states can control their own representatives more effectively than they can control the feds.

Some members individually hate commercial collection and some members idividually think it's good with reasonable bag limits. HCU the organization has not supported either side. Personally I am for limited commercial collection. In fast reproducing species with low commercial demand there is little if any need for studies, they should just track the numbers collected and sold. In species with slow or low reproductive stratagies I believe in low bag limits, tracking and fees to fund further study.

There is a very simple reason why HCU doesn't take stances on those issues and sticks mainly to informing members of ways that they can assist in studies. It's because those issues divide us and because science is needed to reach fair and reasonable conclusions. This is true whether HCU exists or not and destoying HCU would not make those issues go away. And it would not help studies get done, which face it, without those studies the default policy is going to be the precautionary pricipal. It has been said many time that HCU exists to promote recreational collecting and reasonable, data based conservation. HCU exists so that anyone, other feeling aside, can work together to promote those things.

There are other organizations out there that support commercial aspects of the hobby. Since HCU members are free to join those organizations there is no need for HCU to get involved in those issues.

I just don't think it's right for you to call HCU, the organization, a sell out organization, or a reflector of sell outs, when the organization itself has done none of those things you say certain members have done. And I disagree with you calling members hypocrites simply because they have differing feeling and practices regarding issues that HCU the organization doesn't even participate in. I think you should address those members personally and not by attacking HCU, which is just one organization out many that those people are actually members of, if you have issues with them. Now if you have issues with HCU's stances on recreational collecting that's fine. It's perfectly reasonable to attack HCU on that but so far I haven't seen you disagree with HCU the organization there.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron you are in complete and utter denail. The organization known as HCU does not support the collecting herps for the purpose of sale. That is sell out.

HCU's President said that HCU supports the idea of the White and Black List. That is a sell out position and bad for herpers, breeders, dealers, collectors and the herp industry.

HCU members are herpocrites if they buy and sell wild caught herps and they join and support an organization that does not support the sale of wild caught herps.

HCU members that buy animals from a commercial collector and then go to TPWD meetings and bad mouth commercial collectors are herpocrites and pieces of do do.

The HCU member who wrote the Constitution and then two months later has wild caught herps for sale is a herpocrite.

The herper who catches and sells gas money snakes and then joins HCU is a herpocrite.

The HCU member who asks where to buy wild caught feeder lizards is a herpocrite.

Not to mention why you guys do not support the sale of wild caught herps = kiss TPWD booty.

Not to mention why you guys support the box turtle banning agenda = kiss TPWD booty and because you don't keep turtles you keep snakes. Sell out of turtle people.

You are in denial. The rest of your post is justification.

I will not keep going over the same proof and evidence that I have exposed over the last three years fifty zillion times. Facts are facts, face it.

Welkerii

This has been a good discussion these past few days. Some valid points.
As unpleasant and straight forward as Mike can be, he is right. The way I see it (actually saw it), TP&W said "don't want to go down that road" in respect to actually monitoring real numbers, and just swept the whole issue under the rug with the ban (white list/black list). Out of sight, out of mind...on to new business..."we've got game ranches to promote". Validation of TP&W's position provided by newly created "associations" of little merit, that were conveniently created by HSUS lackeys like Barbara Dillard. People with absolutely no credentials were suddenly authorities.

Many HCU representatives, and/or members weren't very supportive of Mike's position at the time of the original discussion, attacking him personally. They ate that boilerplate HSUS propaganda up and spewed it forth again and again. They were seemingly only interested in their small segment of herpetoculture, that of reversing the road ban in Texas. Their strategy did not work.

Mike has continued the debate. Why not. Nothing has changed. Now, only a few step up to defend HCU's actions. Very noble, but the facts are undeniable. It's time to get something done.

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I would have been surprised if they wanted to go into active monitoring of the populations as I would suspect that they don't have the funding to run the program. Different states have different funding allocations, for example in the not too distant past, the entire funding for Pennsylvania's non-game regulations came from the sale of license plates for PA wildlife. That was a little over a 100 thousand a year and it decreased once they started selling other custom plates (like trains, Zoo etc). That money was the entire budget for salary, etc for the non-game animals..

This is why I am never surprised when I see restrictions put into place as it is much cheaper to blanket prohibit than it is to place bag limits as you don't have to train to identify, handle or deal with it in any way other than it is illegal...

I have suggested the issuance of non-game "stamps" to track and fund. They would be bar-coded reciepts/permits.
Also suggested an excise tax on such items, much like is done with tires and car batteries. Same as is done with outdoor recreational/sport items (motor boat fuel for example) that fund TP&W activities.
No interest so far.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Why wouldn't many politicians view that as simply another tax? Look at all of the arguments on both sides over simply letting temporary tax cuts expire.. one side claims it is raising taxes while the other side argues it isn't...

Ed

That is exactly what needs to be done...take politics out of the discussion. I would prefer to call it a funded mandate.
For the most part, it is a regulatory issue. The only legislative issue is the road ban. That seems to be all some people care about, to the exclusion of all other stakeholders' interests.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

What about USARK? Why does HCU need to fight for commercial intrests when we already have USARK for that? On the other hand, with the roadban there is a great need for HCU because nobody else is doing anything about it. It's one thing to just not want to join or give money to HCU if you are a commercial collecter and don't feel you really get a benefit from it. I understand that. It another thing entirely to actually be trying to discourage other people from helping HCU, like Mike is. Is it really any wonder why he gets attacked? It's because he is casting the first stone. No member of HCU even had Mike in their thoughts until he started trying to tear HCU down.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

You still don’t get it. HCU doesn’t have to fight for commercial interests. What they have to do is, at a minimum, not sell out the industry by supporting the banning agenda. One of the problems with HCU is that your members participate in the activities that the Constitution says you don’t support. It makes the whole organization look like a bunch of herpocrites. For the most part, I support HCU’s efforts to get the road ban over turned. However, you have gotten yourselves into a pickle because in trying to get the road ban over turned some members have lied to politicians and TPWD about their and the groups activities instead of supporting the right to sell wild caught. The members that don’t buy, sell or trade wild caught can honestly say they don’t but you definitely have many members that do.

I would not consider becoming a member because your positions are sell out, you have a bunch of herpocrite members and many members are real jerks. Not because you don’t fight for commercial collectors. Of course you can change those things but only time will tell. By-the-way I don’t include you as a jerk like many of your other members definitely are. You are sometimes mis-guided and apparently don’t read my posts thoroughly. You try, unsuccessfully, to justify the actions and positions HCU has taken. You have always debated the issues politely and have never sunk to the name calling and character assassinations other HCU members have unleashed at me. But you also make things up. The following statement is false: “No member of HCU even had Mike in their thoughts until he started trying to tear HCU down.” I was on the gray-band forums from the beginning before HCU was an idea. I was the one who contacted the lobbyist and got the road ban tabled. I was there posting the same types of things I post now. But you guys refused to listen. Then you formed HCU and I didn’t give up. Everytime one of the herpocrites slipped up I was there. The reason I get attacked is because I was correct all long and the big egos in the group can’t handle it.

I do encourage people to not support HCU because of the reasons I have stated over and over again. I do, however, support getting the road ban over turned just not HCU the organization. I have sent letters, made phone calls and done all I can. But I will not sell out my rights nor the herp industry for the road ban and neither should you.

Welkerii

HCU actually got alot done in regards to reversing the roadban. We got a House Representative to actually right an ammendment that would have excluded herps from the roadban. That is huge. Unfortunately another Senate(or House I forget which) Commitee leader who was responsible for scheduling it to go up for vote prevented it from being voted on by delaying scheduling until it was too late for our Rep to push it onto the voting floor. We were, and still are, VERY close to getting everybody back on the road because we again have a Rep willing to push that ammendment during the next session.

As far as the box turtle ban and the white and black list, I shouldn't have to point out that Mike didn't stop those things either. So you criticizing us for not succeeding is very disingenuous because Mike didn't succeed either. Not that I don't sympathize with him, I am not the one who brought up the criticizm. Maybe if he had spent more time fighting those things and less time harping on HCU he would have gotten it done. Like I said, I do sympathize with him. If he had wanted to get something going I would have gladly helped. All his harping is doing is reducing the chances of us all getting back on the road, that's why it bothers me. It would bother me less if there was actually some oganization that he is promoting that is actually fighting the roadban, but there is nobody. He is offering no alternative organization that both speaks on behalf of commercial collecting and is actually doing something about the roadban.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

John basically said it all below but I want to touch on a couple things. John was referring to the road ban not the White and Black List I believe. I have spent many hundreds of hours working against the banning agenda. I am sure I have done way more then you and maybe even any private herper. I resent the statement that I have not been working against the banning agenda and just attacking HCU. I was on the PARC listserve since Feb. 2000. I started hammering the academic agenda pushers and probably jeopardized any chance of working in academia again because of it. So you are welcome! I have wrote letters and made phone calls for every piece of legislation that has come about in the last ten years. What about you? I commented on the USFWS python ban, the California frog and turtle ban, the New Mexico regulation proposal, the New York nongame regs, the Florida turtle ban, the Florida big snake ban, the South Carolina turtle regs, the Connecticut exotic ban, the Maryland nongame regs, the Oklahoma turtle ban, the Texas road ban, and the White and Black List to name a few, and most recently the USFWS amphibian chytrid ban. I was the second public comment for that one. Have you made your comments yet? I also wrote my Masters thesis on the White and Black List regulation and I should get two papers out of that. You owe me a huge apology not to mention a “thanks”! And you are welcome. Glad to do it! Fight the good fight!

Welkerii

I didn't say you hadn't done any work. I made a tounge in cheek comment in response to what I took as someone basicly gloating that HCU didn't reverse the roadban. Since he was using that as a reason not to support HCU I was saying that if that's a good reason then nobody should support you either because you didn't succeed either. My point was not that people shouldn't not support HCU, or you, simply because they didn't succeed. I was saying look at the goals, not the success, and then support. There is going to be alot of failures but we've got to keep on trying.

As for the comment in question, were I said that if you had spent more time working on your goals and less time tearing down HCU, I apologize for that.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

You have provided no proof that HCU supports any of those things. The legislation that HCU has lobbied for speaks clearly as to what it, as an organization, is fighting for. As I said before you are taking individuals members personal thoughts and saying that they apply to HCU. HCU has not supported a ban on collecting box turtles; there are a few members who have, on this forum expressed their own personal opinions for it. If HCU the organization supported a ban on box turtle collecting and breeding the leadership would have been speaking to TPWD and legislators trying to get it done and would have asked members to write letters on that behalf. Same goes for the white and black list, those things have not happened. All there is is one, or maybe a couple, members who have posted their own thoughts in favor of it on this forum. Any organization is bound to have members that differ in opinion on things, especially when those things are ones that are not part of the organizations purpose. You may as well blame HCU for not supporting tiger and monkey ownership because those things, just like commercial collection, are not what HCU was designed to support. Once again, it does not mean a member can't do those things, on their own time outside the organization and provided they are legal, it just means HCU doesn't politically support(ie. fight legislation against) those things.

What bothers me is your posts give people the impression that if they join HCU or donate money to HCU, they will be asked to lobby for bans like the box turtle one, or they think their donations will be spent on lobbying for bans on commercial collecting that have not been supported by real data. That isn't the case but they will be able to have and support their own opinions on those things in addition to what they will be helping HCU fight for, which is their ability to recreationally collect and propagate herps.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron, your last 3 posts [in defense of HCU] pretty much confirm that HCU is solely about reversing the road ban at the exclusion of other herp interests in Texas. That's good enough for me.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

So far that is the only legislation that HCU has worked on. I admit it is the main reason HCU was formed.
But we have done other things as far as asking members to help on scientific studies and contribute to grants that would fund scientific studies.
And we do have other goals such as increasing the rights to captive breed herps and increasing the rights to recreationally collect herps in states.
We just are not that powerful and we don't have very many members in very many states. Virtually all of what little financhial resources we have has gone into the roadban. I personally don't have a problem with that because it is a huge issue and reversing it would help alot of people.
But the main thing I have been trying to stress is that HCU has not tried to trade away any rights of other stakeholders in order to get the ban reversed. That is very clear if you look at what legislation we have promoted. All of our efforts have strictly focused on the posetive merits of roadhunting itself, not on "trading" away others rights as we have been accused of.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Again more denial and justification. John said it all above. You are not understanding what I have been saying. If people think those things then they are not reading and understanding my posts. HCU has issues man face it. However, the road ban is a good fight. I support over turning the road ban but not by selling out the herp industry. I will help all I can in getting it over turned. You don't have to be a member of HCU to be against or to fight to over turn the road ban. We will follow your lead.

Welkerii

I hear you but the HCU Constitution, Resolution 2 says what it says. HCU does not support the collection of any reptile or amphibian for the purpose of sale. That is counter to the herp industry including USARK and PIJAC.

But let's be honest here Aaron. This was done because Mr. Hibbitts talked to TPWD and they said they didn't like commercial collection. So you guys decided to brown nose them by putting this in your Constitution in hopes of getting the road ban over turned. That is just the plain and simple truth. I was there for the discussions on the gray-band forum. What is even worse to me is that many in your group buy, sell and trade wild caught. To me that is 100% hypocritical. I find this to be brown nosing and selling out the industry who supports the right to sell wild caught. The writing is on the wall. That's my opinion of it.

Welkerii

So NOW your admitting that HCU does NOT oppose the sale of wc, right-contrary to what you stated as "fact" above? Just wanting to be clear.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles