Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This poor thing just arrived here. I cannot understand how people let this happen to an animal. If this was a dog or cat, they would be facing animal cruelty charges. I plan on doing my best to save this blackthroat but it has so much going against it right now.

I feel ya, man! I mean just because they look scary or ugly to some people, doesn't mean they can and should let this kind of abuse and neglect to happen.

Sorry, Im not from US and got curious: the laws on animal abuse/cruelty are not valid for exotic pets? Very odd.

>>Sorry, Im not from US and got curious: the laws on animal abuse/cruelty are not valid for exotic pets? Very odd.

Depends on location. It also depends a lot on public support. Public outcry drives a lot of neglect and abuse cases and the public doesnt stand behind things that aren't cute and fuzzy.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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What happened to that albig, is not different from what you did with those greentrees, Bare with me sir. so far that albig is still alive, yet two of your greentrees are not.

I know, I know, you had good intentions and did not want them to die, yet because of your lack of experience.(they did) Which means, you were not qualified to have prasinus, they died. The people who allowed that albig to get into that condition, are not qualified to ship or export either.

There is no question, monitors could be collected, supported right out of nature and moved into captivity without problems. But thats not the case.

As a pioneer of many species(first captive breedings) With snakes, I would obtain healhty wild individuals, care for them from the minute I picked them up, which means, I even fed them while I was still in the field. I did not jeporadize their health, if the animals I collected were losing condition, I went home.

Wild caughts are not harder to succsessfully keep in captivity is they are well cared for, from the begining. Which also means captive hatched can be just as "difficult" If they are abused in captivity.

The absolute truth(by the numbers) most of those keepering varanids in captivity are indeed abusing them and their captives will die in short order.

Let me explain, in the sixties, a zoo keeper/field biologist, gave me a base to work from. He stated, wild reptiles can and do live aprox 2 years in captivity under poor conditions. Which is also true in nature, most species(not all) can withstand several years of adverse conditions before they perish.

Which means, in order to IMPROVE husbandry, you must at least be able to have those animals live past two years.

of course, difinitions of words becomes very important. In this case, TO LIVE, is very important.

In fact, a Brazilian taught the difinition of the word, to live. Which he said was to experience life. Not to be alive.

So to live is to obtain life events, which is a term I brought to keeping reptiles in captivity.

Normal basic simple life events for a varanid is to grow up, part up, copulate, successfully recruit, and repeat a number of times before you perish. Of course, in between those areas are where life is measured. To move, to dig, to climb, to love, to fight, to argue, to forgive, etc. Those are anthropromorphic, but animals do indeed have similar life events. I have shown them many times here with captives and wild reptiles.

For instance, The longevity record for ball pythons is over fifty years, yet that individual never grew up. That is the case with most longevity records. The individuals are normally males, that never experienced life events. They were kept in a low metabolism with limited growth, for their entire lives. Which should also be against the law.

Back to the thread, In this case, that animal is not different then the animals that most here have. Its dying and there is very little chance of recovery. As in, recover to what. A life of suspended animation.

In your case Boabasin, you should have gained eperience with a species that is stronger and more resistant to abuse, such as ackies. Prasinus are not different and require the exact same husbandry, only they come from a very consistant habitat and have not developed the ability to withstand harsh conditions(drought) That is, they do not carry fat bodies that will support them when food is scarce, nor do they have kidneys that can withstand dehydration. Ackies come from areas that regularly experience droughts and in order to exsist there, they can withstand POOR CONDTIONS.

Which is exactly the point of my reply. That albig was not kept in supportive conditions, it was not fed and watered and kept in conditions where it could maintain its own health. The same went for your greetrees. WHile you really cared about your animals, you did not know how to support them. For instance, your RETES STACK, was not a retes stack, it was worthless stack of wood. A Retes stack, contains areas the animals use. Yours did not, therefore it was not a retes stack. A real retes stack offers a number of different temps and humidies that an individual can choose from. Yours did not. It was merely a wooden ladder to climb on.

You should have done more research and that includes gain the experience necessary to maintain monitors that cannot withstand abuse, thin tropical species. If you kept ackies, would would have time to learn what a retes stack was.

The reality is, spending a couple of years with ackies or similar monitors, would have taught you how to keep prasinus to a point you may not not lost them testing beginer techiques.

I think you really really care, but what does that mean to the individual monitors that perish while your getting basic experience.

The abig or the prasinus do not know or care why they are dying, they both only know, they are dying. And they will die because of human egos.

Below with Daniel Bennetts post, I also picked on him. The only thing I have against Daniel is, he has No actual experience with captive or wild varanids. That is, he has visited wild varanids, but did not investigate them or study them. Daniel is far better at studying the people what live with monitors. That is, Daniel have not seen wild varanids accomplish normal natural life events before going to study a species that is very hard to study. I suggested to DANIEL, go study a species that is easy to observe(not so many trees to block your observations) gain that experience first, then you have something to compare what your see to.

In your case, learn from a species thats more forgiving. That is the best research you can do.

I apologize for upsetting you or anyone else. But seriously, our own egos are the problem, Yours for starting with non beginer species, and Daniel for being above learning the basics from a less romatic species.

The point of my post is that, that shipper, you, daniel have something in common, you all are more important that the animals WE SUPPOSEDLY love. Your egos will not allow you to work and learn from something considered basic, common, etc. Cheers

Hmmm... I always thought animals are of the world, not really in the world. But I agree with you that people shouldn't be so arrogant and really think about animals' well being first. I wouldn't lie to you.... I've been impulsive on several occasion when I first started out. I saw the animals I want and I couldn't help myself when I had the money. [chuckle]

I have NEVER owned green trees or any other type of tree monitor in my life. You have me confused with someone else.

n/p

Boabasin is also just an example. The point is, lots of monitors die because of lots of reasons. Many here point at some exporter or petshop and say how bad they are, when at the same time they are doing the exact same thing, Only with a different intent.

The reality is, the dying varanids do not care about intent.

What we do need to realize is, if your going to work with varanids, your going to lose some and your going to do so because your ingnorant.

I was hoping someone would say, FR I am sure your had some die. Without question, I have, and not just a couple. My goal was to produce more then I lost. how simple is that, but its realitistic.

If you took a poll here, the vast majority would have lost more then they produced. As a group, I am sure more die then are produced in captivity.

Which makes the point that we are not a group that can point fingers at anyone, not even importers. As a group, we need lots and lots of improvement. As a group, we should realize that.

We should realize these animals are giving their lives to teach us something, What is sad is, as a group, we are not learning. As we keep making the same mistakes.

We keep being egotistical, and think we can learn from the top down, which is the exact point I am making using boabasin and Daniel as examples.

Education is to learn, it normally starts with the simple lessons and advances to the more difficult. Yet here, the good guys kill off animals by starting with the most difficult. That makes me sad.

YOu are right on the spot. We should learn to keep the easier species first and advance to more difficult ones. But you make it sound like we have to breed them if you have some. I think that's what a lot of people do when they get their first animal(s) as a result.

We get a lot of good advice from people with alot of experience but you learn from failure as well.It would be good to hear these stories not just from the novices.

When I first started, it was kindda confusing sifting through the information. One of my frog die as a result.... One of my gecko died. She was kindda small for his size, it had MBD or something according to the vet. i don't know that was because it was a bad gecko or it was because of me. She was at the pet store for quite a while before I got her. And then I found this site: www.anapsid.org It's very informative if you looking for scientific explanations. Some of the people I've talked to are kindda cryptic. It's very hard to make sense of it. It seemed like they didn't want to share the information with you. Who knows if it's gospel or gorilla's sh*t!

Usually, you have to talk to a lot of different people to see who is good. There are other people who have a lot of experience and willing to share it.

Mailing lists are also good ways to talk to different people. Usually, if they are willing to help, they are pretty forthcoming.

My question was only about laws, not the reasons why the animals die.

But anyways, I do understand the post you say. I think it is not as simple as it may sound.

I have lost 2 prasinus, and I have lost dozens of reptiles before, some for my mistakes, and some for other reasons. I have lost reptiles, have bred reptiles and will probably breed and loose another handful of them.

The way information is put here can lead people to a wrong comprehension.

In my case, YES, if I had the perfect cage set here when I received the prasinus, quite probably I wouldnt have lost 2.

I live in a country where owning these animals is forbidden, prohibited.
Having said that, I believe it is pretty obvious that I cannot go to the classifieds here and say: "hmmm.. I want this, I want that, just send a couple to my door"

So it is not that simple getting the most suitable species whenever I want.
Second, I really don't feel like owning an ackie. Plus, I have no means to acquire some. If someone in this forum have means make them arrive here, I'be thankful and will choose better the species I work with.
Also, these animals are intended to last for many years, and I don't feel confortable with the idea of a starter animal, then selling it like do with an used car, just get a different one.

In the case of the GreenTrees, as I explained earlier, a friend managed to bring the trio to me and told me just 2-3 days before he delivered them. Of course I would have researched a lot and built a good cage in advance.

And last, I have looked for information but what I found was not even close to uniform.
I had all kinds of reply, especially in this very forum. Some telling me I should do a room sized natural vivarium, others saying I should keep them in a simple cage, with only a spotlight. As for the stacks, I searched around the internet and built what I believed to be the ideal model. Just after it was ready I was told they were the wrong kind. When I posted pictures, some people were even wondering why I would use such thing for that species.

In the end, I had to filter all that information and do a different thing which seemed correct from everything I heard and after some time the one monitor that was left seem to have enjoyed.

All that doesnt change the fact that 2 GreenTrees did die and at least for one of these cases it could be avoided.

But I really have to dissagre that it is all a matter of ego.

This is exactly the point i am trying to make. You somehow think varanids are like boas or colubrids. That is, if you follow what someone says, they will be alright. Varanids all of them are not like that. They REQUIRE experience.

The problems are many. Like, you can keep them all the same, You can. You give them decent heat, decent humidity, plenty of food. All with do that under the same temps and same humidity and same food. You do not need to cool or hibernate or raincycle or photoperiod.

Monitors are behavioral. Which means, they rely on behavior to accomplish the things snakes do with temperature manipulation.

They are more like birds, where the presense of nesting intices them to reproduce. Birds do not lay eggs in water bowls, they need a nest, a certain type of nest, when that is available, with food, they reproduce. Varanids are more like this. If birds do not have species suitable nesting, then they simply do not reproduce. Again varanids are like this.

What your missing is, varanids behaviorally make due with conditions. If they feed a lot, they use a lot of heat. If they do not, they seek and use less heat. If humidity is up, they move about, if not, they stay hidden, much like snakes in this way.

The biggest problem is the understanding of groups. Varanids are group orientated animals. Whether its pairs, trios, or larger groups, they not only know how to do this, they seek being included in groups. Here they are like birds. And like birds, they choose who is in the flock and who is not. This is NOT YOUR CHOICE, its always their choice.

Behavior is one element that is totally omitted in reptile biology yet, its the most important. Hmmmmmmmmmm are we humans a bit to slow to understand reptiles? Well thats my bet.

Here, you need to understand, varanids are complicated, in my opinion they are physically simple and behaviorally complicated. This requires experience to understand.

The problem is, folks do not like to do things to learn, they want to read about them to learn. With behavior, that is not going to work. The reason is simple, behavior is conditional, it changes with conditions. It also changes with individuals.

For instance, if something is wrong with a snake, it stops feeding. Temps humidity, etc. Well monitors will feed even after they are dead. That is common here, my so and so monitor ate yesterday and is dead today. Yea well its kidneys or liver was already dead, the rest was waiting.

About ackies, inexperienced folks think they are a starter monitor. THEY ARE NOT. They are a teaching monitor. THEY TEACH YOU ABOUT MONITORS. THey do all the things any species do, and put up with our silly prejudices. All in all, acanthurus is the species will will want to keep after you kept all the other species. Why, because they are fun. Some other species, are just not fun.

The require less work, and give more back, hmmmmmmmmmm they are enjoyable monitors. They enteract with you the keeper. How bad is that?

The reality is, you will keep them and get rid of Greentrees. That is more likely if your successful.

The point is, others and you have an ego that makes you think you can do it WITHOUT experience. You take a thin fragile varanid to start with. That is the problem. With varanids, you need experience.

With ackies, from Europe or the states, they are all captive hatched, which means, they were not stolen from nature. Which is more forgiving then collecting an island species, and losing a high percentage, then selling them to people who are sure to kill them off. THIS IS DANIELS COMPLAINT.

So your taking a questionable species and attempting to learn from it at the expense of the animal. As mentioned, there are no longterm successful programs with this species. They are produced here and there. In REAL LOW NUMBERS.

Farm produced are mostly gravid wild females, put into cages until eggs are laid. And in country of origin. So there is little to no requirement to learn about the animal. It would be like me breeding local lizards in our outdoor cages. All I have to do is put food in. The rest is already there. Done it.

So yes, what you read is not going to give you much. Thats why you need experience.

So whats next, are you going to get more. Or are u going to keep something you can learn from? Cheers

That was a classic FR post. Very insightful. I love the part about the dead monitor feeding. So right : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Yes indeed.
And I can't wait for a thought on that ad on the other site.
Monitors are not ball pythons, that ad has got me shaking my head...
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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

Thanks Robyn, I get lucky once in a while, hahahahahahaha

What?

I have no idea what you mean....

What makes you think I do,hahhahahahahahahahahaha

I'm just joking.

He now has the energy to try and kill me at every chance. LOL

Understood.

I cannot change the fact that I already have the Gree Tree thou.

Now I have to try my best and give it conditions to thrive. I'll have to learn both from observation and reading.

This is getting a bit odd. Because, we are doing this on two forums. hahahahahahahahaha

So what I say to you is really me saying it to others reading, because I have already said it to you.

Monitors are easy, getting yours to thrive is easy, Thriving is not the problem. You will soon master that.

The point trying to be made is, you want more. With the intent to breed them. THis is where prasinus and most varanids are murdered in numbers, not getting them to thrive(to feed)

You were told monitors feed well after they are dead, and Robyn seconded that notion.

That i guess is cryptic for, feeding is not the problem or how your really going to massacure that species.

If you read these forums with a non prejudiced mind, you will see that most beginers kill them off because they treat them like snakes. They aren't so they languish. then or excessed, sold off or die.

Once they are in the hands of EXPERTS, then they are killed off in mass because they treat them like mindless reptiles. The key to varanids is nesting, and NOT JUST THE ACTUAL nest.

Varanids behave like birds, nesting is SOCIAL. They do this in groups in particular areas in particular ways. Which is why its not so easy or consistant in captivity.

If you treat them like you would a groups of parrots, you eliminate those problems. You do not have to hibernate, or brumate or any of that crap, They live in groups and nest in pairs. Its just that simple.

Yet science keeps treating reptiles like they are stupid primitive animals. As in, solitary without behavior.

In you can understand this, they treat them with biology mindset. Which is find for the physical aspects of animals. But then apply that to behavior, which is another type of science altogether. Ethlogy.

For instance, they catch them, take them OUT OF THEIR ENVIORNMENT, CUT THEM ALL THE WAY OPEN, INSTALL FORIEGN DEVICES, radios, sew them back up and expect them to ACT normally. That is not scientific. That is blind ego.

No animal will function normally after evasive surgery. No animals will behave normally after a large foriegn body is installed inside them.

What happens is, after being molested, varanids act in a very normal way, they run, they attempt to escape, they flee the areas they were attacked in. So biologists in there ignorance they say, they are solitary. Its the methods controlling the results.

So yes, that information will screw your efforts up everytime. So I tell you, look to those DOING WHAT YOUR DOING.

YEt, your so prejudiced, you look to prasinus breeders. Just what, prasinus are no different then any other species.

COMMON SENSE MY FRIEND. what makes them different is the habitat they live in. That habitat supports their varanid requirements. Their adaptions are to extract the same support from different conditions. In a cage, that habitat is GONE, completely gone. So what you have left is a varanid.

Varanids are generalists to the max. They are not prey specialists, they all eat the same exact food. Even the fruit feeders, recognize rodents and birds and insects are food.

They smell it, taste it and then eat it. the reality is, if they were food specialist, they would not recognize those other things as food. Or they would eat trees and rocks and anything else thats not food.

So yes, keeping varanids is counterdictory. the reason is simple. Its the last bastion of poor science. In our case, our science produces NO RESULTS. Its merely written like you say. The problem is, peer review. Peers are friends and protect eachother.

Which is normal, but in most areas of science, there are hundreds, thousands of scientists working in the same areas of study. With reptiles, there is not money or funding so theres a couple, each picks an area, and now we have to wait a lifetime to see science work. Science is to always question itself. This is lacking in this area.

So I say applied, that is, those of us who produce results. To do that, you the listener, must question the source and see WHAT THE RESULTS were before you go farther. Most are so excited to hatch one, they publish tons of literature from on baby that hatched. In most cases, they got lucky.

If you want information that will help you, you should look for generations. That shows a longterm understanding. Not luck.

So I say, those with generations of experience, and with multipule species, agree, there is more difference between individuals, then between species.

So I recomend to you, get experience, do some generations with species that will allow you to succeed. The truth is, it does even take that long.

If done right, you can do a generation every six months. 18 months from now, you could have three generations under your belt.

The question is, will you have learned anything from that????? In order to achieve a generation, you must complete the key steps or requirements. To achieve two generations, you must learn what WAS ACTUALLY required. After many generations you learn the absolute minimun thats required.

I think you have a great additude, and I do not take anything personal. except I do want to protect the needless abuse of monitors. Specially those of limited availability. Your killing off animals that should be in the hands of keepers that have already gained the experience to succeed. Like me.

This was already mentioned. In the Daniel Bennett thread.

Your approach is the copy method. that is, you hope to copy someone. That does not work with varanids, like it does in snakes.

Again, the reason is, monitors are behavioral and react to YOU. even if you copy others conditions. Its how you support those conditions. Cheers and sorry for yet another rant.

No worries Frank, Im actually learning a lot from these conversations.

Yes, you are right, I want to breed them in a second moment, after they are thriving. I guess this is a sort of natural process of all of us here. Most people here are more than average keepers, they want to go further than just buying an animal in a store and keep it in a terrarium in the living room.

When you mention they were taken from their habitat to captivity this would apply for pretty much every species, except the fact that some are more forgiving than others. The way to avoid this problem would be getting myself some CB's, which would almost certainly mean Varanus acanthurus. Tropical species should be left to experts, but unfortunatelly not many are excited about working on providing some CBs. Add to that the fact that so many monitors are falsely sold as CB. This makes options very short.

You would probably get me conviced getting a couple ackies if I had the chance to choose which species to own. But, as I said, they were pretty much given to me. I knew I was going to own them just 2 days before they were here. Thats why they were in plastic tubs with heat rocks in my first post here.
The first thing I did when I unpacked them was take some pictures and hurry for help. It took 2 weeks for me to provide a minimally decent cage to them, screwing things up and restarting again. Very sadly, it was too long for the couple babies to wait, as some people (like Jobi) predicted.

So now im left with a Green Tree, which SEEMS to be doing fine. All I can do is try to provide it as close to optimum conditions as I can (knowing I can never have a piece of Indonesia here).

But I've been reading my share on other Varanids. I do follow some tristis, acanthurus, exanthematicus topics too. And it seems to be helping.

Now that I have the slender green creature here, there's no way back. If it grows strong, I believe there's no other way to learn which conditions should be provided for the whole nesting thing, than trying... I don't think there's another way to evaluate.

Space is a bit short here, but if possible, I'm getting a trio of ackies to learn from.

I hate seeing things like that
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles

Herplink-- Reptile Link Exchange