Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Recent posts have made me more aware that the average posters ID skills have diminished to an all time low. Posting "guess the locality" threads are all but gone. Book reading has given way to surfing the net. Trust is at an all time low even though there has been a noticable reduction of hybrids in the hobby. Skeptics would rather say what it LOOKS like than understand what actually makes up the animal. The scientific method is mocked. Now I know there are lurkers who know their stuff, pop up now and again for the few civil posts with interesting topics. Our Bi-annual "coastal plains milksnake tinkering" thread I havent seen in quite a while. Our spring milkathon is gone.
So my point? I guess I'd like to say that its in all of our best interest to know these ID skills. How many times have we seen atypical forms only to hear the "hybrid" term, "escapee" or the like? While we all can figure that everyone is spending less time in the field, its more than that right? Urban sprawl is knocking out alot of locales, alot of our personal hunting spots. If you dont get into the field you dont really have an idea how truely variable milks are. Maybe the economy has knocked out the longer trips to find unfamiliar ssp..? Or could it be that we are losing intermediary sites? I know most locality NUTZ are usually field guys, but do we now see less intermediate forms because they arent as salable? Are the local and state laws seriously affecting our time and knowledge of the local variability? What can be done about it? We certainly see alot more BREEDERS than COLLECTORS(having Collections not Breeders).I would like to have a open discussion of what we all can do to improve this lost art.

Nice post Jeff.
We need to bring the milkathon back
I will get my camera charged up next week

I have been kinda stuck in the mud lately with other things

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

yo.....alla those snakes ain't triangulum!!!!!!

The average person off the street now would rather simply "point and click" on things, whereas years ago anyone interested in snakes got as many books to read as they could possibly get their hands on, and thus, was also exposed to lots of their natural history as well. Of course active field herping in conjunction with lots of book reading adds a very well-rounded knowledge under the belt as well.

Now days,..I have found that most in the hobby(and especially those just getting into it)are only interested in the "cool" colors and patterns they see in front of them, and the thought of theirs being non-ordinary and "special", even if it means getting one with a silly label such as "Imperial" is the main focus..LMAO!. And ironically, many don't even know what "ordinary" can often look like in any given area or circumstance anyway, which is another sad aspect of the way things have progressed now.

Today, although the internet can be great and very useful, as I have said before, it has also inadvertently brought on a new level of laziness.

People will only learn if they WANT to learn.....simple as that!

BTW, just for the record, I can accurately ID thousands of different types of snakes with my eyes closed practically, down to the subspecific level, and morph, and even I thought the snake in the VERY poor quality pics could have easily been a calligaster, and so did other VERY experienced people that chimed in. The photo quality was just that poor, and of course this is not meant as a derogatory comment in any way to the original poster either, it was a cell phone pic, and they are renowned for taking extremely poor photos, especially in low-light situations. If they were better as the later photos where, there wouldn't have been any question at all as to what it actually was in my opinion. I think all of us can easily agree on that.

Anyway, if someone really WANTS to learn about something, they will, and if they don't, then,...well,...you know the rest

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, of course I agree with both the books and laziness comments. But am I wrong or is there also a bit of a backlash from LOCALITY NUTZ? Dont you think new keepers are looking for a SPECIFIC look rather than deal with normal variation? I think it favors some locales over others, and we could lose alot of variability in people's efforts to keep things "PURE". Obviously morphs aside.
About the other comment, I started a new post for just that reason. I'm directing it more toward people who cant name 5 good milksnake books. I'm directing it toward the "average" kingsnake.com user who in their 1.5 years of breeding know everything and knows just enough to feel comfortable voicing opinions on something they dont know anything about. The type who question any morphs purity because 20 years ago there wasnt a internet to check to make sure everything is true(LMAO!). The type that scared me out of keeping ratsnakes because no matter how much documentation I had their speculation and a little knowledge kept them from understanding the truth. How do we teach people that what a snake LOOKS like is not necessarily what it is?? How do we educate??

" I'm directing it toward the "average" kingsnake.com user who in their 1.5 years of breeding know everything and knows just enough to feel comfortable voicing opinions on something they dont know anything about"

Yes, this is an extremely common occurrence to see, and lord only knows I am ALL for people learning and understanding snakes more, but I think the way it was worded will only lead to more bickering, and I don't think this is what the forum really needs more of at this point. It just has the distinct "flavor" of the beating of a dead horse.

I will just graciously leave it at that, but I do agree on many points

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree with both of you but as you know people want what's the best looking and the newest morph. Just as in the newest gadgets, people want the best and newest out there. I do think Hybrids have gotten into the breeding groups and even after time still may have something to do with certain looks. Someone calls it something pure just because they were told that.
I also think that collecting laws have made it harder to collect wild type animals.
Doug you are a God to know so much. I know I've had snakes since 1973 and still I still can't name certain animals. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah Don, the hybrid thing is something many of us have to try to keep in check as best we can from entering into our collections unwanted. I feel pretty strongly about this. Just imagine how many are crossed and bred into things un-knowingly around the country(and world), much less on purpose.

If people had better, and more finely-honed visual IDing skills, it would certainly help immensely, but the average person in this hobby just isn't all that sharp at ALL in distinguishing the so many different types and subspecies of snakes we have in our hobby today, let alone all the crazy morphs on top of this as you already mentioned too.

Hey!,...did Rusty come to visit you on his trip like he planned?. If so, I hope you guys had a great time together!

later, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...You definitely have many of the latest and greatest "top-shelf" morphs my friend,....no doubt about that at all!

It would be safe to say that out of all the snakes you have ever seen in your lifetime, you have probably forgotten more than most people in this hobby will ever know.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

-called having a life outside the forum!!! Sometimes I can't tell my pet bunny wabbit from my pet hondo by touch!!! And gosh-don't tell anyone but my field collecting has been limited to looking at a garter snake my wife found in the driveway!!!! I hate to admit it but it may not even have been a garter from the wierd white areas on it and the blinking ruby red eyes and the way it was crawling backwards while humming I don't think I could positively I.D. it as a Madison County Alabama pure Garter or whatever ssp or pps or sps.!!!! Geuss I am kind of a failure as a snake keeper.
Since I don't have 100's of Herp books and a trizzilion hours in the field and can summon snakes with my mere presence I will let go of all my "questionable" mutt Hondurans. Probably in some remote pristine locale so they will hybridize and produce offspring that will be debated about on kingsnake by real knowledgable herper guys!!!!

Every hobby has different levels of interest and participation-one reason why I admire guys like Dell and Cole-they are unbelievable in their knowledge and dedication-but I don't enjoy and husband my animals any less because I could'nt give a good crap about going field hunting.

I just like snakes. Always have since I was a kid but,there are snakes around here that I could not tell you what they were and I really don't care, I enjoy my interest in the capacity that I can-so what.

rodneyj wrote:
blinking ruby red eyes and the way it was crawling backwards while humming

Where was that locality again? Crawling backwards and humming? Sounds like a great morph to start working w/ to me. We'll sell thousands, and thousands of them until the price goes so far down the little hummers will have to start reading Shakespeare aloud to drive the price back up.

Rod, thanks for the complement, and I completely agree w/ you that people have different interests in the hobby for different reasons. I don't have any interest in keeping getula but I do find myself enjoying other peoples passion for them.

I'm glad you voiced your opinion, it was well said, and feel it needed to be said too.

Oh, and that ghost pinband honduran shot of yours is insane looking. Now if you could only teach it to hum while backing up.

-Dell

This is the best I can do for bright hondos.

Huge respect for your efforts and guys like you and Cole who take it out past the limits!!!!
What makes it so admirable is you do it out of love for the animals and leave your ego's in check.
Always enjoy your posts!!!

'
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

Hey, Rodney! Thanks for the kudos! I'm going to have to agree with your post 100%, too. Just like with any hobby, there are different levels of involvement and different areas of interest. I, for one, see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Trying to weed people out or make them feel unwelcome or inferior is NOT something I want any part of.

-Cole

Doug, I started this thread to be on its own and let me be clear--it is not directed to any individual in particular. I am sincerely interested in sharing info, and there are many that could benefit in understanding the nuances that some know. I can recall Joey H. and I hunting mole kings in upper MD and we get to this huge side of roof to flip. We both lift and I am then holding up about 400# while he runs around underneath toward one of the 3 racers then backs off and puts his hand on his hips. Through my sweat and with my last breath I gasp "grab the friggin mole king!!!" He steps backwards to hold the roof.....I grab the snake as he almost drops the roof on my head. I hand him the snake and he says "gee, I thought it was a racer!". Other people not knowing ID skills has almost got me KILLED! Now I know most people who use kingsnake.com have their snakes identified by other people, but collectively lets share some info with those willing to learn(and there is a whole nother thread....geez). Maybe we can have a online quiz for those interested in signing up??

LOL!!,....yeah, I can picture in my mind the scenario there holding up the heavy roof while your buddy is baffled and hesitant to grab something he is not sure on what it is..HAHAA!

Would have been a lot easier on you for sure!

A quiz would certainly be a fun thing!, and not of just northern milks either, I am talking many different types of snakes. After all, that is what one runs up against while out in the field, or even on many different vendor tables at a show for that matter..LOL!. I think it is great to be well-rounded in IDing as many different types of snakes as possible. This is another reason I frequent the "what kind" forum so often, because it keeps my identifying skills well-honed........and, well, not to mention I take great pride in being able to help people out on any snakes in question that they come across or have bought somewhere and are not sure about what they are at all.

In any case, that was a great story that could have ended up far worse. That almost sounded like something you'd see on a TV comedy..LMAO!!

"Keystone Herpers"..HAHAA!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ya Doug, and when Joey ended up stealing my whole collection I didnt have to think too hard where I would stash his body! GRRRR. That other forum is ok, but bad pics really do seperate the men from the boys' ID skills. Maybe I should road trip and take bad pics of everyone's collections and then do that quiz?? LMAO, please, to you and others, I have taken all the crap I can about bad pics! Please let me pass the baton to Bob A.ok? I wouldnt wish it on a newby and other lurkers just dont post often enough to see improvements.

Oh!!,..I didn't know you ever found out who did that. I guess it is really like proving anything else that one is 99.9% sure of. You KNOW who did it, but you just cannot "PROVE" it.

So when did Bob A. post any blurry pics??

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think he has 1 CLEAR pic that he posts all the time. I got some mole kings from him that were advertised without a pic. He did later send me some of them while they were in transit. Suffice to say I was pleasantly surprised when I opened that box! Bad pics have good uses too! I dont have the bad pic market cornered by a LONG shot! LMAO. As far as that theft, I paid Joey to watch my snakes while I go to the Daytona show. I noticed some nice snakes on Tony D's table, he has a buddy who put em there. I was like "Hey, nice snakes! I got some just like that at home!" Well Tony tells me about Joey the scammer and that his buddy bought em from a pet store in VA.Beach. Imagine finding out they were MY snakes for sale right in front of me in Daytona! I tried to file charges on the guy but the VA beach police dont like snakes and refused to deal with me because I was from out of state. Even though some of my snakes were still at the pet store they told me if they confiscated them they would be killed and frozen. I had to buy my own snakes back from the pet store too! I had RARE($$) stuff including some of the first Albino Eastern kings, anery LA milk, het Anery NM milks, hypo coastals, het hypo coastals, Monster Island milks, and some one of a kind multihet yellow rats. About $15K taken from me by someone I met on this forum! GRRRR. He will get his one day!

i should have read the whole thread......that blow$.....heres my one good pic...hahahhaha

Yeah, that blows in a BIG WAY!!

Sorry that happened, but these people usually get what's comin' to'em........ eventually

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

yeah.....i take the worst pictures.....and still don't know how to post 'em.....jeff ....WTF.....how does someone steal your collection??????.....we wanna know!!!!

.......OK...........

.....first....L.t.triangulum, Mass. locale?...inland ...like 23 miles inland?.....a guess....

....money and time....I want to go westward and hunt milks all the time....I never have and may never get to....

....Money and time and getting shot....Mexico hunts....

....and...LAWS...like you mentioned....LAWS are changing and the problem is that states do NOT post squat online for us to KNOW the laws....really...one time I wanted to know laws from me (PA) to FL for a long run and hunt trip....guess what...I still know NO Laws in ANY of the states....at all....

......deli-cups.....it's so easy to hunt in deli-cups....they cannot get away...they are in private property...and it costs no money for the hotels and food.....

...just like deer hunting Vs the Market.....a good delmonico beats a deer cut anyday and is soooo much easier....and warmer on my butt....

just some thoughts.....
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........JY

state laws regarding collection and bag limits are a problem to be considered when on a multistate run......LEO seem to target out of staters......and herpers seem to be considered offenders before we're even checked out......vehicles searched etc....an example would be georgia(which, i believe, protects all nonvenomous snakes)....catch a red rat in NC...get stopped as you pass through georgia....and there is a potential problem....since the snake is now afforded protection in georgia.....even if you're photographing with intent to release when done....can result in a very unhappy day......

oh yea....I know....I Never been hunting ...period...just little jaunts here in PA...a ''cool snake'' free state....LOL...

I tried to look up rules online...FL, GA, SC, NC, VA,
MD ....didn't find squat.....I know....like GA you can do vens not non ven...stupid....all or none I would think...why kill vens...?.....yet how many? live?....keep?....not keep...?...
and like you said...go across state lines and bam....NC catches you just peeing along the road in Hyde Co....oops....you going to pay.....

......everyone coming home from Datona shows (etc) should worry even.....corns...I-95....and we are illegal many times maybe as we come home.....

....I'd like to get out every year ...all the way south....western sometime...even Mexico run....aaaaah....wild tricolors and thayeri....hmmmm.....and kidnapped and held...?....

.....yes....we shop online.....

think of this little tidbit...what about the people that look at books for pic ID info....books ...many books...have pics labeled wrongly.....alot......

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........JY

dude....i live in philly.....where are you???

dude....go to Lancaster then another 12 miles westward....when you hit the river, you just missed my house ....LOL...by 15 blocks actually.....

Columbia....PA....2 hours....

talk to me at Hamburg....been there for 20 years....

should be next to Susquehanna Ectotherms....(Ted T)

.....see you in a couple weeks....

????
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???
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........JY

hahaha......i'm right cross the aisle against the wall next to that jmg gecko dude......dennis reichling table......been there 21 years.....hahaha see you dec 6.......