Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've found that unregulated euthanasia in pet shelters appears to be the Achilles Heel of HSUS, PETA, et al., and that Nathan Winograd and the No-Kill movement are firing away with deadly accuracy. The "No-Kill" movement clearly has HSUS on the defensive with unrelenting pressure.

I've used the "No-Kill" debate to illustrate just what hypocrites HSUS, PETA, et al. are, and it seems to be working very well because the unnecessary killing of millions of dogs and cats every year in Americas unregulated pet shelters resonates very well with those who would otherwise support HSUS, PETA, et al.

In my opinion, if there ever was a "divide and conquer" strategy that can weaken HSUS, PETA, et al., "No-Kill" is it. If you agree with "No-Kill", I suggest we endorse this position to ally ourselves with a huge army of other mainstream animal lovers.

Opinions please!

That is what HSUS does best...kill our animals. They sell the raid, the confiscation, the prosecution to the local authorities...bring in the media for a big propaganda campaign...then leave town, to collect the favorable publicity proceeds...leaving the locals holding the bag cost-wise and leaving the animals to languish and die with inept and unsatisfactory husbandry by their "saviors".
It's a freaking flim-flam and nothing but.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>I've found that unregulated euthanasia in pet shelters appears to be the Achilles Heel of HSUS, PETA, et al., and that Nathan Winograd and the No-Kill movement are firing away with deadly accuracy. The "No-Kill" movement clearly has HSUS on the defensive with unrelenting pressure.
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Nathan et all are firing away quite frequently, however one issue is that they are doing it too much. And trust me I adore Nathan. I love the no kill movement and fully understand it.

We have to be careful to not turn into boy who cried wolf. Eventually no one listens.

Several times I have mentioned reaching out to other groups. Making friends with the ferret folks in CA, making nice with the bird folks, making nice with the feral cat folks, reaching out to the Bull Breed folks (American Pit Bull Terrier is on the list of animals PETA wants to make extinct and yes that is THEIR word). Getting a partnership with these organizations is vital to getting acceptance beyond reptile owners which is also vital to survival.

These groups have regularly stood up to AR movements in the past. We need to get together with them.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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...most of them dont think we should be able to keep big snakes (just ask them)not understanding that we are all in the same boat they just dont like snakes either and think we are all weirdos...(obviously not ALL of them just the majority)...
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1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa (BCI)(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel Boa (BCI) "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 6' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa (BCC)"Lola Boa"
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Blonde Bullsnake "Boo"
1.0 c.b. 05' 4 1/2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc 4' Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb 18" Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc 3'Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Achmed"
1.1 wc LTC Southern WhiteLip Pythons "Thorne and Ariel"

I've not asked Nathan specifically about snakes, however, he did say that their stance on euthanasia is the same for all shelter animals.

If we were to endorse their position, I believe we would have a much more sympathetic ear for our situation, especially so since we have science and statistics on our side and HSUS, PETA, et al. against us. But this is just my opinion, and I would like to hear other opinions on this. Thank you for yours!

I have said a few things over the past two years and I have acted upon them.

1. We need to do more community outreach. How many people do you meet that has never talked with someone about owning a snake? How many of you work to change that perspective? I put mine out in the open here on kingsnake. I give a LOT of my free time to do things like the Milwaukee Museums Snake Day (which I blogged about) to talk with people who will look at a snake and go EWWW and explain WHY they are great pets and why people should keep them. Get into schools, get into boy scout troops, explain the science of keeping and explain why keeping is GOOD.

2. I work with shelters. I run a rescue so this is a given, but I work with shelters to change the perception of the drug dealing, tattooed having criminal reptile owner to a normal person who owns them. Granted I have tattoos but they are rarely visible when working with groups.

3. I spend days in places most serious reptile folks would never go. Petco. This is where your average beginner gets their start. I work to educate the beginners on proper pets, proper care, direct them places to actually learn, explain pros and cons with specific animals and even discredit the stores corporate care sheets, referring to better materials. I work to explain to dog and cat folks OUR perspective.

Reaching out to groups like TNR, the no kill movement, the pit bull community, the bird community, the fish community, the ferret community because THEY HAVE BEEN WHERE WE ARE AT! These are all groups that have had to fight for what they have. They know persecution for ownership. The issue is most people can not imagine loving something that doesnt love you back. You need to put into words the magic of owning reptiles. Why. What is it that they give you back. Anthropomorphizing helps. Making them understand, not just giving the cop out that they dont like it so we are done. Make them like it or at least UNDERSTAND.

We all hit the reptile shows, but seriously how many have taken the time to spend a little free time talking to NON reptile people about ownership. That is where we are SERIOUSLY lacking. To effectively change the general population we need to GIVE them a reason to change how they think.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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Nice post, Cindy! Thank you so much for being such a good representative for reptile hobbyists everywhere!

Unfortunately, I'm much too crusty, and I don't have a personality that would come across well to the average person. I forget exactly what my Meyers-Briggs score is, but I'm definitely an introvert. I'm a fairly good researcher, though, and I try to inform and represent the reptile community as best as I can over the internet.

I also do a lot of public education and attitudes about reptiles have changed 180 degrees since I was a child. I was recently at a beach on the WI river and observed a fox snake in the river swimming to shore near some people fishing. I went over to pick it up because I was afraid people would become alarmed and try to harm it. As I picked it up several persons shouted at me not to harm it because they are harmless and beneficial!!! I was completely shocked! 50 years ago people thought I was nuts to own snakes. Now when I do presentations I get mobbed by people wanting to hold a snake.
Pertaining to legislation, there is a big difference between owners and nonowners who only have a casual interest and acceptance of reptiles. Nonowners have no vested interest in attending legislative hearings or writing to lawmakers to oppose restrictive legislation, and will not be motivated to do anything about it even if they sympathize with or agree with our cause. In that respect we cannot expect material support from them anymore than we can from people who hate snakes.

>>...most of them dont think we should be able to keep big snakes (just ask them)not understanding that we are all in the same boat they just dont like snakes either and think we are all weirdos...(obviously not ALL of them just the majority)...
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Two things, one you are very incorrect. No most of them do not. Many do not understand why we keep and enjoy them. A 5 minute conversation can easily change that. *I* know. I do an INSANE amount of outreach on reptile ownership.

Two this is where Outreach and education helps. Getting out there and meeting with folks who do not like or keep reptiles and explaining our perspective will change minds.

And Nathan Winograd knows why people keep snakes. He is no kill for them as well.
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Cindy Steinle
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I like everything I've heard and read about Nathan Winograd so far, however, he does say he's an animal rights activist.

I thought I knew the philosophical mind-set of animal rights activists, but now, after doing more reading beyond HSUS and PETA websites, I'm not so sure. I believed HSUS, PETA, and other radical animal rights organizations truly represented the AR movement, but now I'm beginning to believe that those folks just give animal rights a bad name (I'm still opposed to assigning the same rights to animals as for humans, though. Just the ridiculous notion that I could be arrested and jailed for accidentally running over a turtle on the road (careless driving, negligent homicide, leaving the scene of an accident, etc.) is enough to convince me that giving animals human rights is going too far. Not to mention that the courts are already overflowing with litigation.).

What I'd like to know is what animal rights means, so I emailed Nathan Winograd, who is a lawyer, to get his viewpoint. The response I got was that, as he is touring, he is not able to personally answer my question, however, the response said the topic of animal rights was covered in an essay in his latest book, "Irreconcilable Differences". If anyone has that book, could you please let me know the gist of what Winograd has to say?

>>I like everything I've heard and read about Nathan Winograd so far, however, he does say he's an animal rights activist.
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Nathan is not Animal Rights, but Animal Welfare. As a rescuer, I hold the same position. I have attached an article that explains the difference.
Animal Welfare and Animal Rights

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Cindy Steinle
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Nope, Nathan IS animal rights. He says so right here:

www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=1710

"I am an animal rights activist. I wear the appellation of animal rights as a badge of honor. It is unfortunate that some people hate the term. It is unfortunate that some animal rescuers hate the term. And it is unfortunate that some No Kill advocates hate the term. I am an animal lover and a lawyer and as we live in a legal Republic, that is what my aim is. I have argued that the term 'animal rights' is not going away, and it shouldn’t. It is a term intended to put the No Kill movement in line with other social justice movements—to cash in on the heritage of other rights based philosophies that have benefited from building on the work of those movements which have come before them. It is a powerful term which accurately encapsulates what the No Kill movement is seeking for dogs and cats. And, when it comes to these animals, the public is ready and willing to embrace it."

He is a very different kind of "animal rights activist" than those of HSUS, PETA, et al., though.