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Any of you've seen this problem before?

terryd Nov 16, 2010 11:42 PM

I've posted this on the alterna page, but thought you folks might have some suggestions too. Or at least find it interesting.

I keep a small group of alterna and have a male w/ a strange problem I've never seen before. I keep a fairly large group of NA milks, and have never seen this before in them either.
He has this concave that starts just behind his head on about 5 or 6 inches of his ventral. He looks kind of desiccated in the photos but I assure you he isn't. He is still very active and was last fed November 9th. He didn't have the con-caved ventral at that last feeding. He isn't wheezing or sneezing, but I did open his mouth to see if I could see anything unusual, and only found a slightly tacky saliva, but not alarming.

Have any of your seen this before? And any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

Here he is as a robust adult before the con-caving. Thanks -Dell
Image

Replies (54)

waspinator421 Nov 17, 2010 01:43 AM

Huh, that is strange. I have only seen that on snakes that were dead or near death. Weird. Hope it isn't anything too bad!
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

terryd Nov 17, 2010 09:48 AM

Aubrey,
Yeah, I'd agree w/ you, but this male seems far from death. I just checked on him a few minutes ago and he seems fine as wine. I'm going to try and feed him a small fuzzy today and see how that goes. I'll up date his progress over the next few weeks, if he last that long.

Oh, Shannon B. has been the only one to have seen it once before in a Pueblan milk snake. He didn't know what the condition was, and that the milk lived and reproduced for another three years. Strange stuff.

-Dell

PHFaust Nov 17, 2010 10:13 AM

>>Oh, Shannon B. has been the only one to have seen it once before in a Pueblan milk snake. He didn't know what the condition was, and that the milk lived and reproduced for another three years. Strange stuff.
>>

I have only seen this in ball pythons and I see it alot. They are from africa ya know and must be kept in desert conditions.

Otherwise healthy snakes that have hydration issues. I would be interested to see if this would resolve with the addition of a humid hide. Takes me about a week on balls and if I remember next one I get in like this I will get you a shot.

One additional tidbit. I have noticed in balls that have had this, they seem VERY sensitive to changes in humidity. If for some reason I leave town for a week and the hide has dried up, the snake will start showing signs of this.

Is there a chance this was a snake that at one point was excessively dehydrated? Granted I am comparing apples to oranges, but I will tell you every ball I have gotten in that has had this will re-exhibit it with out a humid hide.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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FR Nov 19, 2010 10:47 AM

Cindy. First, Balls are not desert snakes. Second, desert snakes, all snakes have the same physical requirements for hydration. That is, all snakes seek to stay hydrated.

Snakes is desert areas behaviorally must secure areas where they do not lose hydration. That is, they must find burrows or shelters that maintain a certain level of humidity, here its 50% or higher depending on conditions. Less then that causes them to dehydrate.

They also do not expose themselves to drying air. That is air that is less then 50% So they often are found crawling in the open when its humid, fronts, rains, cool out. Etc.

They also do not move in open areas, if they cannot secure a method to hydrate. That is, if prey is available, they gain water by feeding, if food is not available, they will not expose themselves by activities that cause dehydration. Also individuals that happen to be around water, creeks, washes etc, can rehydrate from drinking water. Even such things are fog allows for desert reptiles to maintain hydration.

Animals from wetlands, non desert species, require aprox the same hydration levels, they just behaviorally control it differently. For instance, staying in open air to dry out. moving to dryer shelters to avoid water blisters, etc. They are trying to maintain about the same levels as desert species, only using the opposite behaviors to get there.

There are some adaptions, like the thickness or structure of the skin. Organs that can withstand greater levels of dehydration. Examples are, the kidneys of desert species have developed to withstand seasonal extreme dry periods with extremely low humidity. Whereas species is a constantly wet or humid enviornment, have no need to adapt to dryness.

The point is, the actual animal requires about same hydration levels.

In captivity, its our task to not allow dehydration to all our captives.

In your case, if your snake are dehydrating that quickly, my bet is, your cages are pourous, screen lids, etc. couple that with indoor or worse yet air conditioned houses, you have extremely low humidity outside of the cage. This causes water lose and is not good or benefitual to any snake.

While non desert species suffer visually and quickly from chronic dehydration, desert species can withstand it slightly longer, they still develop long term chronic disease, like gout, kidney failure,etc.

Simply put, SNAKES hide in secure shelters. They do so for reasons of security and to control hydration. As in, not to lose it.

If every snake was out in open air, we would have a hard time walking, there would be so many of them. But thats not the case. That only occurs during extreme floods. Snakes will be everywhere trying not to drown, that is, avoiding overhydration. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ball pythons come from monsoonal habatits. that is, they have a wet season and a dry season. I believe the angolan python is a desert adapted relative of the ball python

PHFaust Nov 19, 2010 12:25 PM

>>Cindy. First, Balls are not desert snakes. Second, desert snakes, all snakes have the same physical requirements for hydration. That is, all snakes seek to stay hydrated.

>>
>> Ball pythons come from monsoonal habatits. that is, they have a wet season and a dry season. I believe the angolan python is a desert adapted relative of the ball python

Frank, ya missed a point. The animals are rescue. I know many of the posters here know that run a reptile rescue, but perhaps you did not. If you look you will notice I mention previous conditions quiet often.

The other thing is sarcasm didn't apparently come thru. The vast majority of folks that I get animals from put the animals in a 10 gallon tank with reptile carpet a spot light and a very small (usually empty) water dish. Then upon getting the animals (or even in education talks) it is often pointed out these snakes are from africa so they are desert animals. A point I do correct in education.

The snakes that show dehydration concaving upon arrival rehab quickly but also seem very susceptible to any shift in their future lives. I also strongly suggest all snakes receive a humid hide to offer a variation to their habitat rather than a simple water bowl. It creates a better selection of a varied enclosure, dontcha think?
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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DMong Nov 19, 2010 12:37 PM

Not much can be added to that.

BTW,...what was the topic here again???..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 05:59 AM

looks like severe dehydration to me.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

a153fish Nov 17, 2010 06:41 AM

Dell, how long has he been that way, and can he move about ok? I can only think of two ways to get that way either suction from within like a blocked airway or severe muscle cramping or even something like a stroke. I've never seen that before on a living snake, like Aubrey said.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

terryd Nov 17, 2010 10:09 AM

Jorge,
He has only been like this for a short time as I fed him on the 9th and was fine then. I noticed it 4 or 5 day ago. And like I said, he has been active the whole time, not lethargically sitting on the heat tape. The condition doesn't seem to bother him in any way.
Like I said to Aubrey (see my response to her), I'm going to try and feed him today, and will up date his progress accordingly.

Thanks for sticking up for me on the desiccated (dehydrated) questions I appreciate that. I was afraid I was going to have to defend myself from a bunch of newbie references.

-Dell

PHFaust Nov 17, 2010 10:20 AM

>>Thanks for sticking up for me on the desiccated (dehydrated) questions I appreciate that. I was afraid I was going to have to defend myself from a bunch of newbie references.
>>

OHHHHHH Did your furnace kick in recently? I know I deal with tropicals, but our humidity in our house went from 50-60 - 10% in the last week. Remember the animals I deal with are rescues so I see a LOT of weird stuff.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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terryd Nov 17, 2010 10:36 PM

Hi Cindy,
I have used humid hides for alterna before, and never had them really use them. Of course females will use them for egg laying but this male never did use them, and so I haven't used a moist hide w/ him in a long time, years actually.
With that said he has one in his tub now, not a bad idea and worth a try.

Your other suggestion about the furnace being used now that the weather has gotten colder would be true for us. We are using the furnace now. Maybe something to that, I'm not sure. I still don't think it's a desiccation issue. The moist hide is in his tub now, and we'll see if that'll helps. The Grayband hasn't used the hide at all that I can tell.

I did feed him two fuzzy's today, and he ate them just fine and w/ out issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.

-Dell

PHFaust Nov 19, 2010 12:20 PM

>>I did feed him two fuzzy's today, and he ate them just fine and w/ out issue.
>>
>>Thanks for your suggestions.
>>

No Prob. Like I said I see it in balls in rescue alot from previous situations. And mentioning it here with the heat, I did start to notice one of the balls from a previous neglect case start in with it again.

Oddly enough it starts and vent and works up in balls. That is a def hydration issue because it is resolved quickly. Then again I deal with a lot of tossed off animals here.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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DMong Nov 19, 2010 12:31 PM

Cindy,....

And I would like to take the opportunity here to simply say that we all certainly appreciate your endless work in helping these poor animals out too. Lord knows there are far too many neglected animals of all types out there

A big CONGRATULATIONS for what you and all the other's like you do to help these animals!!!!

best regards, ~Doug
Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jlassiter Nov 19, 2010 05:58 PM

Damn Doug....
Your gonna break your nose if she turns......LMAO!!!!!!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

DMong Nov 19, 2010 10:47 PM

No, not at all John. I hate seeing all the animals in this world treated like pure freakin crap!, and most do absolutely nothing on their behalf at all.........She DOES!

The next time I see a skinny-ass starving animal with it's spine and ribs protruding out of the loose folds of skin, I could only hope it would ever be so lucky to finally end up in a good home like hers, or anyone else home that does what she does.

I can tell you this much, I could never be an officer like on "Animal Cops", because I would be the one being thrown in jail for battery on some of those neglectful morons that run their animal "concentration camps" for animals.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jlassiter Nov 19, 2010 11:15 PM

I agree Doug....
Lighten up and TAKE a joke man......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

PHFaust Nov 21, 2010 10:45 AM

>>I agree Doug....
>>Lighten up and TAKE a joke man......LOL

Thanks Doug. And come on John, really, this is still the kingsnake forum and you know how bad it looks to be considered kissing up to the mods here.

My only regret is it has taken 10 years for me to keep my own stuff.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 07:25 AM

As the others have said, he looks severely dehydrated. You could try putting him in a moist sphagnum moss hide to see if that might help him rehydrate. Also, try putting him in a shallow ( just deep enough to cover his vent) bath of warm unflavored Pedialyte. This will restore his electrolytes. The tacky saliva is also a sign of dehydration. I have only seen this in sick animals that have become dehydrated from being too weak to drink. The Pedialyte soak has saved them. Walmart carries a house brand just as good as the brand name and much less expensive.

What caused this concave ventral is a mystery. The only thing I can think of is chronic regurgitation, but you would have certainly noticed that. Does he defecate after eating? Has your water changed somehow and he wont drink it anymore?
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

terryd Nov 17, 2010 10:28 AM

Bob/Chris,
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. But like I said the alterna doesn't have a dehydration problem, he has water in his tub at all times, and I've seen him drink a few times sense I noticed his condition. It was the first thing I thought of too. From my experience a desiccated snake looks flaccid over its whole body, and even more so in the back end of the snake. This Grayband is only con-caved in the upper 4 to 5 inches of the snake.

An injury from substrate could very well be the culprit here.

Check out my response to Aubrey's post for a little more information, and thanks for your concern. I'll up date when I know more, or as needed.

Thanks,

-Dell

a153fish Nov 17, 2010 08:20 AM

"He looks kind of desiccated in the photos but I assure you he isn't."
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 08:29 AM

I would have to see him in person to be sure about the dehydration. He sure looks dehydrated to me. If his keeper was keeping weight records and the snake has lost significant weight recently, that would be another indicator.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

a153fish Nov 17, 2010 08:38 AM

I know it looks dehydrated. But if Dell says it's not, I believe him. He's is very experienced in keeping and breeding colubrids, especially milk snakes.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 09:35 AM

Upon looking at the photo again, the snake's lower jaw where there is the crease in the middle (can't think what that is called) looks too deep as well.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 09:43 AM

The mental groove. Also the anterior and posterior chin shields look sort of dented. Could he have gotten injured somehow there? Is he is still eating and defecating?
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 11:11 AM

>>>I know it looks dehydrated. But if Dell says it's not, I believe him. He's is very experienced in keeping and breeding colubrids, especially milk snakes.

yes it really really looks dehydrated, what exactly does experience in keeping and breeding colubrids, especially milksnakes have to do with anything jorge? ive kept and bred snakes for 30years(and ftr i was published in reptiles mag.march'09 article on breeding honduran milksnakes) and the fact is that snake looks severely dehydrated to me. it would be nice if he descibed the setup like is a moist hide provided, and just because a bowl of water is there doesnt mean the snake knows to drink they arent the brightest creatures. ive had them dehydrate themselves sitting next to a bowl of water. i would like to hear what a vet.says as its ALL speculation at this point and if a vet cant be arranged, my advise would be to soak him in a small tub with pedialyte soak for 6-8hrs. and see if it improves any, i would imagine dell's experience would tell him to try these same things
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 11:28 AM

www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tracheal_collapse.html
Collapsed trachea? Since the inverted thing only goes a few inches down the body. Maybe he has an infection hence the saliva being sticky. I know this is about dogs but snakes have tracheas, too.

-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 11:44 AM

very possible ,but im sticking w/dehydration. ive had and seen dehydrated snakes that look just like his. and dehydration certainly can happen to any snake at any time and experience has NOTHING to do with it as ive said ive had them dehydrate themselves sitting next to a bowl of water.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Sunherp Nov 17, 2010 12:00 PM

The animal remains turgid and hasn't got the "saggy skin" or angular look of a dehydrated snake. We live in a pretty arid climate, so we're accustomed to avoiding that problem.

-Cole

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 12:11 PM

yes but even though it isnt turgid and hasn't got the "saggy skin" or angular look, the concave look is also associated with severe dehydration. good luck w/it and please let us know what a vet says if indeed it is taken to a vet.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Sunherp Nov 17, 2010 11:56 AM

That's exactly my suspicion. Dell and I talked about this for quite some time the other night and he wanted to get the community's opinion.

-Cole

DMong Nov 17, 2010 12:08 PM

As I stated earlier on the milk forum, I think a cotton swab "smear" of the throat is definitley in order here. I would think some sort of pertinent findings would VERY likely result from this.

Listening to the snake with a stethascope could be of great benefit as well I would think.

If the snakes upper esophagus doesn't spring back REAL soon from any re-hydrating therapy that is done, I would be making a "bee-line" to the vet for sure.

Even so, if the snake's throat DOES spring back soon, it still leaves the question of.....what the heack caused this in the first place??....know what I mean?

Hope things go well for Dell's snake man!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sunherp Nov 17, 2010 11:54 AM

The animal is not dehydrated. I've seen it. I've seen the set-up, too.

Dell, correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the animal's history and care as I remember/understand/have witnessed.

That particular male alterna was acquired from Ric Blair (along with numerous others, which are divided between Dell's and my collections) around 2003 as a hatchling. The animal is maintained the same way as other NA Colubrids are in Dell's collection. It is kept in a 18" X 30" drawer in a rack system. The animal has a moist hide made of a polyethylene (plastic) tub with an enterance hole and filled with damp, untreated Sphagnum moss. This moist hide is located at the rear of the enclosure, which also happens to be the warm end. This warm end is heated with FlexWatt Heat tape and maintains a temperature of ~88 degrees Fahrenheit. The cool end of the enclosure, where the ceramic water dish is located, is approximately 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The substrate consists of laboratory-grade Aspen shavings. The animal is a proven breeder (several forum members have some of its offspring) and maintained identically to the other alterna which are also in that rack system. Note, again, that it's just over 7 years old and has been maintained in the same manner since being acquired by Dell.

Having seen dehydrated animals in the wild and in captivity, I'm confident in asserting that it's NOT dehydrated.

-Cole

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 12:00 PM

hey cole we all have one(opinion) im just stating mine. like i said and i know im not the only one, ive had them dehydrate themselves sitting next to a bowl of water. id say a vet visit is in order for proper diagnosis.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 12:26 PM


A trip to the vet is a very good idea. If it is an infection it could possibly spread to the rest of the collection.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

thomas davis Nov 17, 2010 12:33 PM

to funny
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

a153fish Nov 17, 2010 03:26 PM

If you had snakes dehydrate next to a water bowl then something else in your set up was WAY wrong! Just MY OPINION!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

terryd Nov 17, 2010 11:58 PM

Cole wrote:
That particular male alterna was acquired from Ric Blair (along with numerous others, which are divided between Dell's and my collections) around 2003 as a hatchling. The animal is maintained the same way as other NA Colubrids are in Dell's collection. It is kept in a 18" X 30" drawer in a rack system. The animal has a moist hide made of a polyethylene (plastic) tub with an enterance hole and filled with damp, untreated Sphagnum moss. This moist hide is located at the rear of the enclosure, which also happens to be the warm end. This warm end is heated with FlexWatt Heat tape and maintains a temperature of ~88 degrees Fahrenheit. The cool end of the enclosure, where the ceramic water dish is located, is approximately 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The substrate consists of laboratory-grade Aspen shavings. The animal is a proven breeder (several forum members have some of its offspring) and maintained identically to the other alterna which are also in that rack system. Note, again, that it's just over 7 years old and has been maintained in the same manner since being acquired by Dell.

Cole you are correct in everything but the damp sphagnum moss hides. The alterna do not have the moss hides. You may be thinking of the Charina b., or the Epicrates c. which do have the damp sphagnum moss hides.

You nailed my set ups pretty damn well, now how are my taxes looking, and whats in my clothes closet, and where is that damn crescent wrench? Never mind don't answer those questions. Well I would like to know where that crescent wrench is.

-Dell

markg Nov 17, 2010 11:55 AM

I know you said he isn't dehydrated - I'm not saying you are incorrect. However, a soak for 5 minutes in very shallow lukewarm or warmer water would not hurt. It would be interesting to see what happens after that (perhaps no change at all, but no harm to try).
-----
Mark

terryd Nov 17, 2010 10:46 PM

Mark,
I did try the soak on him yesterday for about an hour and half. It didn't change anything.
I've soaked some snakes before w/ great success for various aliments (dehydration, poor sheds etc..)

I feed him a couple of fuzzy's today and he ate them quickly and w/ out incident.

Thanks for your response.

-Dell

markg Nov 18, 2010 04:53 PM

Thanks for the reply, Dell. Reason I suggested soaking was due to when I had acquired a boa (I know, not a grayband) with some tracheal infection of some sort, I saw that area relax considerably when the snake was in very high humidity. Wondered if that was the case with your snake. Wow, keep the forum posted on his condition.
-----
Mark

willstill Nov 17, 2010 12:00 PM

Hi,

Has the snake been eating? Could the animal have something like nematode parasites or other types that would take nutrients? What does the snake look like dorsally, is there tenting or a spinal ridge, can you see ribs? The reason I ask is that snakes store much of their bodyfat in their bellies. It looks to me like the animal has used up all of its abdominal fat stores and is starving. I've seen that look on many, many import snakes and captive snakes with huge parasite loads. In most cases, the animal died and upon examination, it was a total absence of fat stores that caused that sunken look.

I don't see skin folds that would indicate dehydration, but its tough to tell with the angle of the pics. Usually, if a snake is emmaciated, it is also dehydrated. I would take that guy to a good vet ASAP and have a pro check him out. Good luck.

Will

DMong Nov 17, 2010 12:21 PM

Hi Will,......

That is along the same line of thought I had on the milk forum too. That is why I think it is really important that it be seen by a vet for a cotton swab throat smear. This would instantly detect, or rule-out parasites such as tongue worms, and many other possibilities here too, as well as any bacterial infection(s).

If Dell SAW the snake drinking as he said just recently, and it doesn't seem to spring back SOON after a soaking in water(not warm either, just tepid room temp) either, this is the only logical move to make in my opinion. I wouldn't wait long to make this decision either to be quite honest.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

terryd Nov 17, 2010 11:05 PM

Will,
The Grayband did eat an adult mouse on the 9th of November, and has eaten a mouse or two every 7 to 10 days sense he's been out of burmation. I fed him two fuzzy's today and he ate them both.
I'v seen emaciated snakes before and their whole body gets gaunt, flaccid, and angular looking. This specimen only shows the con-cave depression of the ventral region in the first 4 to 5 inches behind the head.
Here is a photo of him from today before I fed him. Not the greatest shot but I think you can see he's far from starving and emaciated.

I appreciate your suggestions and taking the time to respond. I'll post any up dates that would apply to his condition as they arise.

-Dell

willstill Nov 18, 2010 07:36 AM

Hi Dell,

Thanks for the dorsal shot. From the first photos, I wasn't sure if the sunken ventrals went all the way down to the belly area or not. Clearly, from this photo, the snake is not malnourished. Thank you for the clarification. Yes, please keep us updated. Thanks.

Will

DISCERN Nov 17, 2010 12:35 PM

Let me throw this out: Is this maybe a problem with possibly too much moisture in the cage, and this particular snake may not be reacting well to it?? Is the moist hide in the warmer part of the cage possibly making it TOO humid?

Also, what about ventilation? Is there a decent amount of holes drilled in the cage for providing proper ventilation for this particular snake?

Even though other alterna in your collection may be doing ok with the same setup, the chance of something not meshing well with this particular individual, may be happening. Perhaps Rick B. was keeping this snake in other conditions/temps/etc., and this snake is not acclimating as well as the others?

Alterna come from a pretty dry climate, as you of course well know, so keeping them exactly like you may keep a milk snake from a different part of the country may work for some or most alterna, but some may not do as well.

I always aim for much more drier conditions than more humid for my alterna.

Years ago, I acquired an adult male 277 blairs alterna. I noticed that soon after I got him, he was opening his mouth somewhat, periodically, and seemed to be having breathing issues. I was keeping him the exact same way as my other alternas. I was going back and forth on the whole thing, trying to figure out what it was, etc.. Was it a respiratory issue? I had never seen this before in any of my alterna. He was eating fine, but would still exhibit this problem with opening his mouth at times. Not good either way.

So, it then dawned on me. The box I had put him into was from my old breeder partner. The amount of air holes that were drilled in the box was significantly less than the amount of air holes I had drilled in my other boxes with my other alterna. On top of that, I had a water dish in the cage that was significantly larger than the other water dishes in the other cages. After looking into this, the humidity was at an all time high, much higher than I felt it needed to be, and higher than the other cages.

So, I changed boxes, putting the 277 into a cage with a million freaking air-holes drilled, and a smaller water dish, and voila! His condition stopped immediately!!! He has not done this ever since, and has been completely free of this issue for years.

So, IMO, it is very possible, that it could be a ventilation/humidity issue. OR, it could be something much bigger. Either way, I would still keep a close watch on him, quarantine him, and see if a good herp vet is available to see this snake.

Good luck!!!
-----
Genesis 1:1

terryd Nov 17, 2010 11:28 PM

Discern wrote:
Let me throw this out: Is this maybe a problem with possibly too much moisture in the cage, and this particular snake may not be reacting well to it?? Is the moist hide in the warmer part of the cage possibly making it TOO humid?

Sorry Discern, Cole was right about how I keep my alterna except this one detail. I don't keep a moist hide in w/ my alterna. He is an 8 year old adult that has been in the same set up for years w/ out a problem.
I didn't just get him, I bought him from Ric B. as a neonate in a neonate group purchase. I raised him to adulthood, and he has breed a number of females over the years and has never had a problem, until now.

I always aim for much more drier conditions than more humid for my alterna.

Agreed.

Years ago, I acquired an adult male 277 blairs alterna. I noticed that soon after I got him, he was opening his mouth somewhat, periodically, and seemed to be having breathing issues. I was keeping him the exact same way as my other alternas. I was going back and forth on the whole thing, trying to figure out what it was, etc.. Was it a respiratory issue?

I had one alterna exhibit the same condition once, and did pretty much the same thing you did to cure the aliment, more air holes in the tub, and a smaller water dish.

Thanks for your concern and taking the time to respond, I'll update his condition as it unfolds.

-Dell

DISCERN Nov 17, 2010 11:41 PM

Good post Terry.

I hope he pulls thru my friend. He is an amazing looking snake. I had an alterna one time that was very similar in appearance.

Keep us posted!
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Genesis 1:1

Tony D Nov 17, 2010 03:58 PM

I have seen it before but it has been a long long time. The problem came on quickly and the snake appeared to be in respiratory distress. It died shortly after. This predated me getting necropsies for unexplained deaths.

From the pic you posted it looks like there is a bubbling of mucus outside of its left labial. Hope I'm wrong. Beautiful animal.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

pyromaniac Nov 17, 2010 05:42 PM

you've got a good eye for details. I totally missed the bubble of mucus.

I hope this animal is going to make it, and whatever it has is not contagious.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

DMong Nov 17, 2010 06:59 PM

Yes, but Dell mentioned that he did pry it's mouth open, and there was some slightly "tacky" saliva, so it could be from prying the mouth open with the instrument too (shrug)

Like the others though, I have a very bad feeling about this. And like Tony just said, I hope I am also proved VERY wrong as well!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

terryd Nov 18, 2010 12:05 AM

I hope your wrong too. Thanks for your suggestions and help though.

I did have the Grayband eat two fuzzy's today without a problem. He has been eating adult mice before this, and I used the fuzzy's just in case there was going to be a regurgitation problem, but so far so good on the feeding end.
I plan on watching him over the next few days, and may very well take him to my vet before this is over.

Thanks again,

-Dell

pyromaniac Nov 18, 2010 08:10 AM

Being willing and able to eat is an very good sign. That seems to rule out an obstruction, like a piece of aspen stuck in his throat. Also it seems to rule out a respiratory infection, as in my experience animals with respiratory infections usually do not want to eat. They can't smell the food and therefore don't recognize it as food. But then snakes smell with their tongues, so stuffed up sinuses would not matter?

He is a very healthy looking fellow from the dorsal view. I hope you find out what is the cause of the collapsed trachea. I am intrigued!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

terryd Nov 17, 2010 11:42 PM

Tony wrote:
I have seen it before but it has been a long long time. The problem came on quickly and the snake appeared to be in respiratory distress.

Well, Tony the problem has come on quickly, but he isn't showing any signs of respiratory distress. No wheezing, sneezing, or gaping mouth. I hope I don't have to take him in for necropsy. That'd suck.

From the pic you posted it looks like there is a bubbling of mucus outside of its left labial. Hope I'm wrong. Beautiful animal.

You do have a good eye there, because I didn't notice the bubbles in the photo, and sure didn't notice it while holding. Doug is right, I did just pry open his mouth before the photos were taken. Hopefully that's all the bubbles are from. His mouth looked fine w/ a bit of tacky saliva inside the mouth. But it didn't look concerning.

Thanks for your post.

-Dell

Tony D Nov 18, 2010 07:44 AM

hope everything works out.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

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