Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If I were to breed two patternless, or "banana" cal kings together, will I get only patternless babies, or a mix of patternless, banded, and striped? Thanks for any replies!

Yes, you can still easily get a mix of many phenotypes within any given clutch. But it also depends on what their parents looked like since they are products of selective line-breeding derived from Long Beach-Newport's being bred into successively whiter 50-50's and so on. Some can be more off-white/yellowish, or beige colored too. It just all depends on so many things to be quite honest.

But just don't expect them to all look the same. Now if they DID, that would be the surprising part..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

In fact I did many years ago, I picked out the best looking Banans I could get and when I bred them there was quite a bit of mixture. I imagine many generations of selective breeding over the years may help correct that, but like Doug said it depends on the parents history.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That's exactly it! I don't want them to look the same, I want a big mix. Thanks for the reply!

Is really not appropriate here. I think hahahahahahaha

A phenotype is all wild individuals. That is, the one you find in nature is a phenotype, no matter what it looks like

A phenotype is the genotype, all the possible genetic possibilities, refine by natural selection.

Natural selection varies by time and conditions, such as climate and weather changes, and plant type and predator load. Its what survives in a certain place and a certain time, the phenotype.

So a natural phenotype for pyros from the Quinnland mountains, is different then the phenotypes from the closeby Santa Rita mountains.

As there is not natural selection with captives, the phenotypes may be the types we select for. The reality is, each member of that clutch is a phenotype, no matter what it looks like or what its pattern variation is. At least, thats how its explained to me. Thanks

doug used the term correctly. though not always the most reliable source, wikipedia defines "phenotype" this way: "A phenotype is any observable characteristic or trait of an organism: such as its morphology [which is what we're concerned with], development, biochemical or physiological properties, behavior, and products of behavior (such as a bird's nest). Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.

The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genetic code. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Similarly, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype."

in other words, the phenotype are the traits you can see. a kingsnake may carry the genes and/or be het for any number of morphological traits, but its phenotype is only the trait(s) visibly displayed. if a clutch of kings has 3 bananas, 3 stripes, and 2 bandeds, then three different phenotypes are present from that clutch. even if you know that one of the banded individuals is carrying undisplayed recessive genes like albino, hypo/hypermelanism, etc. that individual's phenotype is still just banded. however, the genotype does include all traits inherited from its parents and ancestors, including those funky undisplayed recessive traits.

Webster's has the following definition:

"the observable properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment"

I think Frank's take is keying in on the influence of environment. I do not disagree with him in that in the wild environmental influence is huge relative to captivity but I think its in error to assume that breeder preference is not also a form of environmental selection. It's unnatural selection true so perhaps we should call these line bred creatures unnatural phenotypes. Morphs perhaps but that seems to go too far in the other direction. Don't know I'm rambling. End transmission.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Exactly, enviornmental factors is natual selection. Which does not occur in captivity. Or at least it doesn't have a friggin thing to do with nature. Our controls are not natural. Our genetic mixes are not natural.

As I also said, its just not appropriate. You can call then phenotypes, as any animals in your hand is a phenotype. The genetic possibilities in that animals DNA is the genotype.

By difintion, captivity is not natural. The biological difinition states, natural selection is what controls the phenotype.

What was said was, you will recieve different phenotypes. AS if, the different patterns within a clutch are different phenotypes. In reality, the whole clutch is the phenotype.

In nature, if that clutch was hatched, natural selection would support a certain advantagous pattern within that clutch. What survived that natural selection is the phenotype.

For instance, raparain(wetter grassy areas normally select for striped cal kings, and arid conditons(lack of ground cover) select for banded cal kings. WHich is normal, but has many variations. These conditions change with the weather, like periods of drought and periods of rain.

Also the predator game. Its always a competition between predator and prey. If one works, the other fails. Back and forth it goes. Also predator types change. The dominace of predator type selects for different patterns. Predators that hunt by sight, are key to pattern type. Some snakes avoid predators by movement. Others by behavior. Such as being cryptic. If your cryptic. Then if the ground cover changes, you must change with it. Or you stick out. That is natural selection. Not dang those albinos are pretty.

What type of environmental conditions or selection controls the captive genotype ?????????????? The only long term selection is, the buyer. If patternless is popular, then they will be selected for. If high yellows are popular, then they will be selected for. Get it?

Perhaps we need to accept that there is a generic use of phenotype. There is the technical aspect that you are referring to and the non technical use which is the same as saying "physical appearance". Context would easily tell us which definition would be most appropriate.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I just don't see the reason this could be argued at all!

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I know what you are trying to say here Frank but I think the definition, as you are using it, is unnecessarily restrictive. Natural or not captive animals are subjected to selection pressures which can effect both genotype and the resultant phenotypic expression a lineage manifests.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"Is really not appropriate here. I think hahahahahahaha"

....it is VERY appropriate here. I think HAHAHAAAAHAHAAA!!!

Just as the other's here have mentioned, a "phenotype" is a visual "LOOK" of an organism!, wild or otherwise.

Sure, there are countless thousands of natural, wild phenotypes, but it certainly doesn't mean that a captive-bred animal doesn't also have a phenotype..LOL!

I really don't understand your attempt at dissecting my use of the term, but in any case, my use of it was quite valid and accurate nonetheless.

cheers!, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I believe the banana gene is pretty strong...bred a banana to a normal this year got 2 bananas, two really yellow ones with aberrant patterns and only one normal. You'll probably get a variation of different babies no doubt, good luck!

Thanks everyone for the replies.

WOW, Amtzzero, you really know how to get things stirred up. Just Kidding. I love the discussion, I love the analytics. I love the fact y'all can agree to disagree. No matter how small and insignificant the subject. It all makes me a better person in the rep world. Keep it up.