Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"You spent so much time, money and effort worrying about whether you COULD do it that you never stopped to think if you SHOULD"

...Ian Malcom
Jurrasic Park

Many Hybrids are extremely pretty. I'm really WOWED (if not somewhat horrified) by all the pics on this forum.
But I just can't help but not understand the facination. It's a more superficial interest that people have I guess. "wow, that's pretty"

Q "Where does it come from, what habitat?"
A "My Basement"

...oh. well...it's...um...pretty. yep. Pretty.

I know you guys are gonna SLAY me for this...
Sorry .... I ... just... couldn't...help...myself...

have a good weekend.

I understand your veiw. Im not going to slay you. However, what if I went to a forum that you love & tried to explain to you how your not seeing the big picture. What would you think? Hybrids are a big part of every pet in the pet business, Discus, all dogs, some parrots,horses. The Discus business is full of absolutely beautiful hybrids such as pigeon bloods,marlboro reds,cobalts, etc. have you seen the colors produced by those fish hybrids. My point is I respect your posistion on this matter. Try to see ours. We are not hurting you or snakes in any way. This is the way it is & the way things are going in a world separate from yours. As time goes on certain traits & patterns will be locked & producing themselves. The old school thought is great but is a new thing that is not going to go away.

Well...

The forums aren't mine or yours, they are public forums.

Actually though if you went to my (favorite or most frequently visited) forum and had a legit. issue I'd be happy to debate it. I don't think I'd get upset unless you showed a lack of respect for my perspective. I'm proud of my work and have nothing to hide.

I don't lack respect for your point of view on hybrids.
I just don't agree with it.

As long as it's done without slams and name-calling, I don't see why you folks get so upset about debate I guess.

You are right...hybrids are not going away. But...you also have to understand that what you are doing IS a controversial issue.
Topics keep on recurring here...and I'm sure it's getting OLD to a alot of you...but I don't think it's likely to go away.

People are going to continue challenge you on this.
You folks really need to stop getting so angry and learn to deal with it.

You forgot what else malcolm had to say. "This isn't some species that was obliterated by the building of a dam, dinosaurs had their shot and they were selected for extinction."

Also Malcolm says You spent so much time on whether or not you could you didnt stop to think if you should. Not your version

We're not creating species, we're breeding ones that already exist. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Pshh, 'had their shot'... they were the largest and most diverse group of vertebrates for what, 200 million years? And we still have how many species of birds?
Sorry, I always have to defend archosaurs against defamation.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Think of the diversity today which is much larger than it was 250 million yars ago

Quote
You are right...hybrids are not going away. But...you also have to understand that what you are doing IS a controversial issue.
Topics keep on recurring here...and I'm sure it's getting OLD to a alot of you...but I don't think it's likely to go away.

The first part about hybrids being controversial. Aren't all snakes controversial to anyone who doesn't keep them? It is unfair to think anyone who keeps "pure" snakes are better then a hybrid keeper (and that is the biggest problem)

And the second part the SAME OLD topics seem to come up over and over because the purists like to come in this forum and bash the hybrid keepers.

One thing people need to realize is as sure as you may think you are about your animal you keep (unless you personally field collected it) how do you even know what you have is a pure? you can't and don't.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

Keeping snakes in captivity IS controversal.
Some people think it's cruel to keep an animal in a "box" all it's life void of sensory stimulation.

It's actually an interesting topic.

Bring it up it if you want...

thing is, most people here are snake keepers...so it's not very likely to come up.

np

Anti-hybrid folks can also be slave to the "ooh pretty" factor. The "Oooh, pretty" factor can cause some to shell out $3000 for an albino ball python, even though it is just a ball python on the inside like the $50 normal. Also, there are folks who breed ball python morphs that wouldn't have bothered with BPs if not for the pretty morphs. The feeling of owning something relatively unique or rare or beautiful permeates any hobby and does not soley pertain to breeders of hybrid snakes.

How about the Honduran milksnake industry. They are Hondurans, sure enough, but mixes from highland Hondos and lowland Hondos and Hondos from the Northernmost portion of their range and Southernmost portion and everything inbetween. No one has locality data for the average pinstripe hypo 66% poss het for albino. Not a hybrid but probably nearly as biologically useless in the natural world, and bred only for looks, not for function really.

I can't really argue that a lot of the "non-hybrid" snakes are "biologically useless" as you put it.

And as for the albinos...well...I personally don't see the facination with them either. It's a good point. Hybrids, in my opinion, however, simply represent animals that are no longer wild animals. They are domestic creations with no natural history to study.

Here's the thing:

I got my interest in herps. first as a small child finding garter snakes and box turtles in the woods behind my house. (I'm sure many of you did too)

Curiousity got to me and I started learning about the animals.
I went to the library...bought field guides, and joined my local herp. scoiety. At the time, it was a herpetology society.

Folks shared ideas on keeping and breeding, but also on actual herpetology. This is how many of the folks in my generation (today ages 30 and up, I'm 35 myself), got an interest in herps,
in the natural history of herps, ecology and how herps fit into it, and conservation of species. I'm proud to say that out of my little herp society in cinti, OH (GCHS, celebrating 25 years)...we have developed young members that are now zoo keepers, wildife bilologists, herp conservation biologists, biology teachers, and vets...some specializing in reptiles.

I fear that the youth of today (the first computer and video game age) are not going to be inspired as we were...since all THIS is at their fingertips.

They will go to reptile expos...and check out colorful pictures and go NUTS with all the wonderful morphs and colors / hybrids etc. Who can blame them? I sure would have.

Where will their interst go from there?
To the hobby world only.

Nothing wrong with that for some people, and hybrids and man made morphs (if sold for what they really are) will not really hurt anything...but...we've taken out the natural history and wildlife biology of herps!

These animals HAVE NO NATURAL HISTORY. They are man-made.
So...the interest starts...and ends...right there.

The future of herpetoculture looks very bright.
The future of herpetology is what I'm worried about.

As long as natural populations are healthy, don't worry about anything else.

Hi, well it's not just the end of the line.. Take the aussie snakes for example. There is a limited gene pool in captivity (in the US) hybridizing these snakes should be though more as strengthing the pool. Also I belive that these snakes shoud be considerd as "domesticated animals" they have no use for reintroducton but they do have a use as far as the pet trade gose. Also some of these hybrids may occur naturaly in the wild..
Another thought is that it is useful in classifcation too.. ex: chondro pythons

But I best you a beer you won't find a california king x corn snake in the wild !!

you know if they integrade in the wild...go for it.

It's the way-out crosses that would never happen that I have the problem with.

Don't be so sure that snakes bred in captivity will never have a use for re-introduction.

I am working on just such a program with an internationally known herpetologist at present.

I apoligize I didn't mean to sound that argoent. (I can't spell worth a ****) One of my long term goals is to get into a reintoduction program!! Personaly I'm not into "the way out crosses" but I don't thinkt that it is nessarly a bad thing. I do belive that there is a responcablity that gose along with "un natural hybrids, which includes that the NEVER reach the wild populations, or of the reintro stock!! But by "making" these crosses means that there (should) be less need for wild cought animals because the ones in captivity are geneticly sound, if by hybrids so be it. BUT they should be considered "domestacated"

"Don't be so sure that snakes bred in captivity will never have a use for re-introduction."

That is not at all what I said.. It's the way out crosses that should NOT have a use for reinto.

"I am working on just such a program with an internationally known herpetologist at present."

All the more power to you!! I would love to be in that position! I guess all I'm saying is that there shoud be more responcablity and probaly we should look at hyprids as domestics even to the same extream as cats and dogs...
P.S. if there is any thing you need for the reinto PLEASE let me know I will do anything with in reason to help out!

np

I am just a little older than you and developed an interest in herps much like you did. I agree with you that it would be a shame for new generations to get aquainted with herps from a snow Honduran for example instead of finding their own native snake. Unfortunately, city dwellers can't find any locally, but field guides can help. I've listened to 20 year olds in a local reptile shop go on and on about how they want an albino whatever, yet they know nothing about the animal. Too lazy (do I sound like a father or what) to pick up a book or field guide. They are drawn to color only.

How about the Honduran milksnake industry. They are Hondurans, sure enough, but mixes from highland Hondos and lowland Hondos and Hondos from the Northernmost portion of their range and Southernmost portion and everything inbetween. No one has locality data for the average pinstripe hypo 66% poss het for albino. Not a hybrid but probably nearly as biologically useless in the natural world, and bred only for looks, not for function really.

Here is a quote from Steve Osborne that I took from one of his posts on the kingsnake forum. None of the honduran breeders would touch on this subject after he posted. hmmmm?

Thought I would touch on a little piece of history regarding the original albino Honduran founder stock from East Germany. I was offered these as Lampropeltis triangulum polyzona in 1993 from a contact in Germany that was a friend of the E. Germany breeder. I was sent photos of the hetero parental stock and albino juveniles which appeared to confirm the polyzona classification. I passed on the offer due to the relative unattractive appearance of the animals and also because of what I felt would be limited appeal of polyzona (both as a subspecie and because and the photos of the breeding stock and albino color) in comparison with the albino ruthveni and albino nelsoni that were just getting started at that time.
Within 2 years this same stock became Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis and the rest is history. At the time I don't think there was much questioning to them being labeled "hondurensis" by U.S. breeders/investors as it appeared that people wanted them to be "hondurensis" therefore they will be "hondurensis".

Another intriguing slant to this story is this- Germans had a tendency throughout the 1970's and 1980"s to name Central American Milk Snakes imported to Germany everything from L. t. abnorma to L.t. stuarti to polyzona to hondurensis. Little regard was given to locality, it was all about scale counts and triads according to Kenneth Williams Lampropeltis triangulum monograph. I believe it was a genuine attempt to properly identify animals in their collections but it was not accurate because of lack of locality data and shortcomings within tringulum taxonomy throughout Central America.

So, there it is. Just when you thought the dividing lines were perfect, I share this little tidbit. Have a nice day!

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

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Mark

I think that if all people felt that way all dogs would look like wolves how did we get great danes and yorkies? They are all dogs but very different.

Dogs are intelligent, social animals. Ancient man and dogs helped one another...and the domestic dog came to be.

Sorry...snakes are never going to be anything but instinct driven predators.

It's not a good comparison

this is the future!hybrids that is and cloning wake up!!!!

Dean, don't you sell indigos? The ones you sell have to be captive born. What is the history of the very snakes you sell? They are from....well, an incubator. Then they go into a plastic box (or glass aquarium or what have you). That's their history. You don't need to OWN a snake to appreciate it's natural history. When you keep a snake, it's for personal preferences. I love a lot of crotalids and am interested in Mexican species, yet I keep none of them.

As long as hybrids are labeled as such, I can't see why you should have a problem with them. If you don't like them, don't keep them. Kinda like your TV set...if you don't want to watch a certain channel, don't watch. But don't take that channel away from me....
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