Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Jeff, these two are from the exact locale, same board, and look so different to me. What do you see in them that tells you the locale. (Montgomery County Maryland). Not part of the game here, I just think they look so different.(Dave this is the mama of your LTT 2nd pic, and probable papa in 1st)

Nice looking triangulum Joe, they do have quite a bit of variability between them don't they, I mean for looking so much a like at the same time. It's like deja vu all over again.

These two were found 20 to 30 yards apart from each other on the same day of course.
Variability is a cool thing, and keeps it interesting out there herping, don't you think?

Yellowstone co. multistrata. -Dell

Awesome variability Dell!. They wouldn't even look like the same ssp. to most folks.

Nice pic too!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

And I thought mine looked different!!!! Both of those are sweet looking!!

OK, now you guys take it the way I mean it now....I look at that pic and say to myself.....locality doesnt mean that much does it? If they can be that variable within likely a year class at a given locality what use is it to try and breed anything "true" to locality? I am not suggesting crossing or anything, but this pic flies in the face of the reason most people breed locality animals doesnt it?

Oh God, here we go again w/ this old, old argument. I know you don't ascribe to the locality ideas/ideals, but do we really need to go over this all again. I'm not going to be able to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

-Dell

No, not rehashing anything. But its days like that in your pics that makes me love milks! Right? Variation is what its all about! But you cant post a pic like that without someone from the peanut gallery pointing it out. May as well be me this time.

Jeff wrote:
But its days like that in your pics that makes me love milks! Right?

You're right about that.

But you cant post a pic like that without someone from the peanut gallery pointing it out.

Well... I don't know if it your point needed pointing out, but you are entitled to your opinion for sure.

I think Doug has said it best in his post below yours. Here it is.
Doug wrote:
To me, the idea of breeding a certain locality doesn't necessarily have to mean a specific look at all, although different locales certainly can, and DO tend to have specific phenotypic "looks". But even aside from that, "knowing" where a certain type of snake originated from in your collection can be just as rewarding as what it looks like, and sometimes even more so.

And this in my opinion is the best part of his statement.
"knowing" where a certain type of snake originated from in your collection can be just as rewarding as what it looks like, and sometimes even more so.

-Dell
Weld co. CO

np

To me, the idea of breeding a certain locality doesn't necessarily have to mean a specific look at all, although different locales certainly can, and DO tend to have specific phenotypic "looks". But even aside from that, "knowing" where a certain type of snake originated from in your collection can be just as rewarding as what it looks like, and sometimes even more so.

Nice stuff Dell!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff, isn't the whole reason you are able to identify where some of these LTT come from is that they are in fact different from locale to locale? Maybe I could not tell but YOU should can and did.

Joe, milks are variable in pattern alot more than in body type. Head shape is a much better marker than any pattern anomaly. Base ground color is generally the soil color which varies from locale to locale. Bright orange base color ones come from the Jersey area and I found a bright straw color one from a salt marsh before too. Adults hold red in the bands better in the south and they tend to go maroon in the appalachians. In the north orange specks show up in the ground color for some reason.....Band width, depth, count, and color work together like a fingerprint but only to those who have seen alot of snakes. I hope this gives you a better idea how I was able to guess the locale, there was once a time where I could guess the locale of most any snake to within 25 miles or so, but not seeing them posted as common here the skills do get lost a bit. Anyways, rambled enough.

Looks like white on red, red on white.

--Dennis

Joe, some milks I look at what it is and some I look at what it isnt. The amount of dark brown vs maroon would make me think its east of the appalachians. The wide black on the 2nd one is more of a PA trait. The head is in the "middle" of distinguishing marks. You may say they look distinct but to me the conflicting clues make them more non distinct. I would have a hard time IDing these, I might even guess them to be more of a IA animal.

Jeff, thanks for being honest that you would have trouble making an ID on these for one. I see your point on how you would narrow them down. These were actually both caught in my backyard under the same 4 inch wide board---several weeks apart. Both were returned to the board, but not until she laid nine eggs!!! (Gravid at time of capture). I have yet to see another LTT around here that looks like that male. As far as the locality debate, I do like snakes for the same locale but can see how it can get out of hand.(IMO) I live right on the edge of FOUR counties. One or two miles away and a snake is from a different county, yet I could go fifteen to twenty miles another direction and still be in my own county. Obviously the closer but different county would be more locale.

Joe

Joe, the key with ID skills is often you use more than 1 identifying trait. Saying that that one looks different you must take more pics and see em side by side. You could very well simply remember them differently due to weather, mood, etc. Right? LOL

I actually agree with the thought on why locality if there are 13 different types IN that one locality anyways....

at times I wander...wait...wonder....??LOL...both...

....but I like all snakes...so....

yes I keep locality....because they are worth more, sell better(?really not)....and look like what I want...but I am talking reds and coastals....

easterns...here in PA they can be all different colors......
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........JY