Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would highly recomend that everyone take a few minutes and read the post by 53kw on the Racers and Coachwhips forum.REALY GREAT
theOLDherper
Pete

Yeah, I have noticed many individual differences and "personalities"(for lack of a better term) in the snakes I have owned over the course of 43 years now. And I have often wondered just how much they are capable of.

They can definitely associate, and they can become very excited, frightened, or very relaxed and content depending on a number of scenarios within their immediate environment.

I don't think they will ever match the incredible intelligence level(or the cuteness) of my little buddy "Bucky", my Miniature Wire-haired Dachshund, but they are certainly not inanimate "rocks" either..LOL!

Hmmm, reminds me of Ball pythons..LMAO!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, Bucky looks like a cool little dude. I bet my dog Bob would love to dry hump him. Hmmm, the dry hump.

-Dell

Yeah Dell, he's definitely my "lil buddy" for sure.

LOL!,..yeah, those Jack Russell's are some real "live-wires" man!

Hopefully he never recieves the notorious "dry hump"

Here is a king to keep it in forum theme....

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I love Jack Russells. Here's my Nipsey sadly I had to put her to sleep about a month ago after 12 years. She loved to dry hump too must be a Jack thing. LOL

And keeping in theme a pic of my coachwhips. I swear I can hear the gears turning while watching them, they think and analyze.

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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Sorry to hear that you cool dog recently passed. I will be devastated when that day comes.

I love those coachwhip pics!....they look like mean little cartoon characters!..LMAO!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

OT: is that a jack russell or a parsons? i have one that look similiar but way fatter. we got him as a rescue so not sure what he is.

When I first got her they were all called jack russels. Later the AKC and some other kennel clubs opted for the name Parson Russel terriers in honor of the man who created the breed. So as far as I know the names are synonyms of the same breed.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Hey guys, I thought this subject might bring out some interesting blogs about snake intelligencs but it seems to have turned into a dog forum.
theOLDherper
Pete

Well, I think my casts are smarter than any dogs! They have trained me to build the fire in the morning.

My snakes are even smarter than that. They just stay in their warm hides and the dumb human is the one who has to provide the electricity.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Sorry Pete.

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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

They also learn quickly. I trained one female to eat out of my hands, and four others copied her.

But, so did gophersnakes and diamondbacks. Cheers

My old monitor would come if you called "mouse"

that took lots of patient work and in entailed an unseen side affect (namely that he came ready to eat and was prone to trying to chomp you)
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Trying to make sense of the background so as not to have to ask this question but it's much easier just to ask... The snake you trained to eat from your hand... is it a "wild" or captive snake? Four mimicking, or dare I say... learning... from the behavior of one is interesting in either case. How long would you say from having trained the one until the others started following suit?

Racer/coach whip/gopher or rattler doesn't matter... interesting.

Gerry

Many years ago in a discussion with a curator I was told of an experiment with Prairie rattlers. Some students got a large rat maze and found that after about a dozen tries the snake went through with no mistakes. Luck? Memory? Trained response?
This is the type of thing I was trying to get some oppinions about.
theOLDherper
Pete

All wild snakes. including those snakes and roadrunners that sit on my legs and take food.

The learning curve is very fast. If you do not break their trust. And they do learn.

They will also quickly abandon these behaviors if you break their trust. Also, they will remember you for years.

I will add, these behaviors are situational. That is, they not only learn to trust an individual, they associate the area with the person(me) Away from these areas, they will let me come close, but are much more timid.

With that coachwhip, I found a female with her head at the entrance of a hole. I then put a fuzzie there. I use positive reinforcement. I kept feeding until I could lure her out of her hole, soon, she would follow me and climb up my leg. I kept records on what they consumed and how often. Sorta shows we are starving our captives. She also cycled, copulated and laid eggs here too.

In spring she had her suitors. They took food out of my hands with no trust training what so ever. WHat"s funny is, before I trained her, I rarely saw coachwhips. Maybe one a year. Then all of a sudden I have five feeding out of my hands.

What I came up with is, they saw me and watched me. Even if I did not see them.

I also have diamondbacks do the same. Where they were here for years.

ALso as I mentioned, roadrunners too. As well as Scalys, Magisters spinys.

What's odd is, its the females that will stay. Males will eat once and off they go.

One scaly did this for 8 years, I photographed her, her mates, her eggs, over and over, even copulation. Same of the Coachwhips The others left when they cycled and came back later.

One roadrunner has returned for 10 years now. Her daughters and her daughters have too. Three generations of females.

I took pics of them all. oh yea, the female roadrunners would take me to their nests. GOT ME.

Of interest, the roadrunners(birds) and the scalys(lizards) will follow you and hunt you down. The snakes will meet you at a certain stop. The coachwhips would sit in a hole, with their heads up in the air watching me and waiting for to feed them. They all returned daily for months at a time.

If that is not some form of inteligece as soom insist,then what is it? Please explain it to me in simple terms as I have been called ignorant by others here.
theOLDherper
Pete

Given your extra details I'm not all that surprised by the number of animals you can "tame". No matter if it's birds, lizards or snakes, an easy meal can be a powerful motivator.

Usually stay away from posts here debating whether or not reptiles are capable of "intelligent" decisions, the word is so often interpreted or measured against human standards... but I think any animal capable of learning and remembering what it has learned has some degree of intelligence.

Still find it interesting that other snakes you haven't spent time enticing with food would so easily follow the example of the one you have spent time with... of course you say they were all males following the lead of a female... that could explain a lot!

Thanks for the extra info

Gerry

In these cases, its not the snakes limitations, its ours.

Most everyone is very prejudiced as to what animals are. We only know what we read. Unfortunately, we have all manner of odd notions with not actual proof.

To be prejudiced is to set limits on what we see.

To actually investigate something, your not suppose to be prejudiced that limits the information taken. Your suppose to take data and analize it later. That part is so missed by both the biologist and layman.

When I show these pics or talk about this, I am told, yea but snakes do not have the mental capacity to do that. So its something else.

The reality is, They are doing that. So in all reality they DO have the capacity to do that.

Personally, I think these small brained animals are far smarter and faster thinking, and have a better memory for this stuff. But surely they will not built a rocket or jet plane or write books.

The key is write books. They do not write books, so they must remember.

What they are masters at is remembering. They remember where food sources are, where many types of shelters are, and where they had encounters with danger(predators etc)

What is so common sense is, if they could not remember those things, They would quickly vanish from this earth.

How they remember or what part of their brain or even its in their brain, is not my concern.

What my concern is, THEY DO REMEMBER.

Using food as a bond is a proven method to include humans into an animals normal behavior.

Such semi natural events as Ratsnakes returning to chicken coups yearly is of interest. Why, because there are no natural chickens or chicken coups to gain that inherent knowledge from.

So its a simple from of adaptive learning.

In my case, coachwhips coming to a particular spot to find WHITE MICE, which are not natural here, even brown mice are not natural.

The reality is, its so easy to test. Its so easy to quantify. Anyone can do it. You can train a snake to feed in one corner. Oh, but that would take a cage large enough that the snake would have to actually be able to leave the other corner, to get to the new one.

hence the problems with us. We have to allow them to learn to get them to learn. That is, we have to create conditions which they understand. Then they can learn.

As simple as this sounds, its very important, You can use food to include you in the behavior of an animal. At least some kinds of animals. But with snakes, you should not use a kids toy, as it will not work. It won't, because its foreign to the understanding of the animal in question.

These days, people keep snakes, as per a caresheet, which is about like keeping a prisoner in solitary confinment. Food, water, toilet, bed, in one small room. Hmmmmmm there is no room for learning. and no need.

So yes, wild free ranging animals are a much better subject, because you can actually see them change their behavior.

The thing is, science is so seperate from behavior that it cannot form a common bond and a place to start. We start by believing that these animals cannot do this or that. Even when they do them right in front of our eyes.

bumper sticker for sale at the show last weeekend by Snake Hooks and Books.
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This is old news but zoos have been using reptile "learning" to increase safety with venemous or large bitin' animals.
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