Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, this is mostly for crocdoc2 who encouraged me to join this forum, and gave me instructions to redo my cage.This is what my peach throat looks like:

So you can see he's pretty small, well really small, but what do you think of this cage?I followed crocdoc's instructions on getting topsoil, and leaves on top, I couldn't get a hold of any topsoil, so I got fir bark with sphagnum peat moss, so its almost exactly like dirt and holds humidity. Tell me what you think.

It is very nice looking but you'll probably hear a lot of people saying this is inapropriate for a monitor.

1- screen top.
Leads to a lot of heat/humidity to escape, making you have to use more heat, leading to even higher evaporation rates and leading the monitor to constant fight to be hydrated. Monitor cages should have less ventilation and more heat insulation.

2- very few and thin branches. More branches will improve the usable area in the cage and can also provide additional security for the monitor. Some cork tubes would help a lot.

3- lamps outside the cage. This allows you to use less wattage and loose less heat. 25-50w should be fine (spot floods are very good). Make sure you have a basking spot above 110F. They needs lots of concentrated heat.

4- very few leaves. More leaves will help keeping the humidity levels.

5- few options hidingXtemperatureXhumidity wise. Provide more climbing and hiding places, in different areas of the cage so the monitor will not have to choose between safety and heat. Keep in ming monitors need very very tight hiding places, they really like to squeeze themselves in tight holes.
You'll notice yours will probably end up hiding behind this background, in one of those wiring trays. My Green Tree loves to do that and I provided a heat pad in the lower part, so he can move up and down to select temperature, yet still being squeezed and safe.

I shouldn't be telling you all this as I am a newbie to monitors, but your post resembles my first one just a couple months ago. I had a similar idea to what would be ideal to a monitor. A lot of people told me I was doing all wrong and was thinking more about me than the monitor itself.
I had to change and reorganize the cage quite a few times, but I have to say that it did help a lot.

Your jobiensis is very beautiful and seems to be in perfect shape, congrats!

number 3 I meant you should put the lamps inside the cage.

oh, I'll probably try to get like suction cups on the lamps and stick then to the glass, I'll add some leaves, and for the screen top, I put a towl on top, it doesnt complete the job but it still keeps it more than without. The hiding spots, in the bottom left picture of the cage you will see something like a stump, I put that in there meaning to be a hiding spot but I will try to get something else, the sticks thing, all he climbs on his the background, I try to get him to climb on the sticks, but he just climbs on the background. Thanks alot for the input.

I believe the sticks are way too thin.

Try to put some real branches there. Thicker than his body.

And wait for more experienced people to show up.

yea, I know one stick is pretty thin, the others are climbable, but I'll put more leaves, deeper soil, more hides (I was talking to crocdoc about it as I was writing this, and I'll try to do something for a basking spot, oo, I could probably get one of those sticky rocks to plant on the side of the cage, closer to the hotter light to get the right basking temp., that could work.

Basinboa is correct and theres more.

While BasinBoa is repeating what hes recently learned. Theres more then following instructions. Which I hope hes starting to absorb.

You need deep substrate. As deep as you can provide in that poor petshop cage(telling it like it is)

The concept, Deep substrate provides at least half of your monitors life. All reptiles, more importantly varanids, live in and on something.

In, means burrows, shelters, hides, etc. Reptiles spend the vast majority of their lifes inside the ground, inside, logs, rocks crevices, etc. They not only sleep inside, which is all people think they do, THEY LIVE(are active) INSIDE.

For instance, baby varanids are rarely seen out. Some species, like lace monitors, are very very rarely seen, But are they uncommon, heck no. They are very common, only they cannot risk being outside for many reasons.

1. There is no need to expose yourself to danger. Like,
a. predators
b. drying air
c. unstable conditions.

2. Whats available inside
a. stable temps.
b. stable humidity
c. security in tight crevices
1. protection from predators
2. protection for air movement and its drying effects
d. FOOD, FOOD, FOOD, all manner of food.

In areas where varanids live, there are so many friggin bugs, lizards, spiders, roaches, etc living inside, there is absolutely no need to leave. Except when you OUT GROW your home.

The reason for so much inside is also directly related to biology.

1. a huge surface to mass ratio. Which means, they can and do dehydrate at a rate many many times an adult.
a. which also means, they can gain and loose body temps very very quickly. Being inside something with mass, mitigates rapid change.

2. being a tiny little thing means everything can eat you.

So, here we are with your tiny monitor, in a cage with mostly air(the killing enemy) exposed to huge monsters, you(more killing enemy) and being kept in conditions that are so foreign it.

And you want you cage to work fine?

The reality is, these things are very tuff but not tuff enough, as the vast majority that are kept like yours die, and die quickly. Get the grave ready soon! mean to say, but true. Ask Boabasin

Secondly, if you look at your animal, its tail base in way to skinny, which means its dehydrated and or has a lack of fat reserves. Both of which are not good. Particularly when your cage conditions are not supporting. This means, its time is short.

Whats really funny is, the above is very true to large adults as well, but its critical to neonates.

The concept that lizards live inside is KEY and missed by enough the smartest biologists.

So if you want to increase the survival rate for your charge, fix the lid, not put a towel over it. Bring the lite insider and use a lower wattage so you can provide a greater temp range. Provide deep substrate and a range of humidity that your monitor can choose from. Choices are key to varanids, they are rougues. They hate to be told what to do, like snakes and will fight it with their lives. They need to choose what they want. Which is why the range.

Do this and you have to run them over to stop them. Don't do it and get ready for a funeral march.

The above is mandatory. Please do the needful and oblodge.(for the good of your monitor)

BoaBasin, forgot to tell you, he lost two of three beautiful indo varanids while trying to grasp the concept. Which I do not think he has grasped, but at least hes attempting to copy husbandry methods.

Which leads to the key to understanding. The concept comes before the application of tools. Good luck and cheers

p.s. don't whine at my additude because its the hundreds upon hundreds of post like yours, well meaning nice people killing varanids, that cause it to be like it is. Each on of you want to be thought of as nice and caring. But each one of you will get mad at me for attempting to better the very low chances of survival of your poor monitor. Another good concept, your monitor is doomed unless you do the right thing. Period. So be nice, be caring, and don't yell at me. Yell at crocdoc for telling you to set the cage up without telling you why!!!!!!!

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thanks for telling me this, I'm trying to do everything I can, I've upped the soil and leaves, how should I change the screen top? swap it with plexiglass? and this is not exactly what crocdoc said to do, he's telling me what to do and I posted this to show him my progress, and we've talked A LOT, and he knows EXACTLY what he's doing, so I'm not worried about him dying, whatever I find out what he needs, I do it, right now I'm working on getting like plaster of paris to make (or if I can find) a rock to attach to the side of the cage as a basking spot, the cage actually hold humidity pretty well, I'm thinking of getting a larger water dish and have a waterfall with a fogger in it to get the humidity higher, currently I'm misting it whenever the humidity goes down, but I might buy a zoomed fogger/mister timed to mist for like 6 minutes every 3 hours, so simulate raining off and on, please tell me everything that I need to upgrade, I will post another picture after I get what I want accomplished. Also, what should I do for his tail, how you said it was small, I'm willing to spend hundreds of dollars on him to make sure he doesnt die. I posted the picture of him right before I fed him, or after I'm not really sure, but I'm feeding him superworms, crickets, and the occasional pinky, again I am going to get a fogger or waterfall to keep humidity boosted, and the waterfall I'm looking at has a flat top, that might be good for a basking spot. Thanks for posting, greatly appreciated.

And I'm not mad at you or anything, not going to whine, I'm glad your that serious, I would be serious too if I was helping someone less experienced who's monitor might die.

A peachthroat is a tree dweller, Branches with hollows are great, even cork tubes are good. Peachies are not a rock dweller. besides, artificial rocks are not very good. Not in tiny cages. They take up space that be used by the monitor. Your monitor wants to bask while inside something. Maybe reread what I already wrote in my last post.

Also the thought of one basking spot is naive. You set up a cage so the monitor can bask in different spots at different temps. That is allowing the monitor to do what it whats.

The tail is thin from poor conditions.

Also, your task is to provide conditions that monitors can thrive in. Nothing you do can prevent your monitor from dying. Many wild caughts are tortured so much. They are living dead, when you get them.

This:

To THIS, happens very fast.

Hurts badly to see.

Do not loose time.

aww basin thats really sad, but ok, I'll get a hollowed out log, the stump fish thingy I have in there, he's finally using as a hide, and it would be really secure, so I think thats good, It's about inch or two deeper, with 2 more inches of leaves, so it's pretty deep. How should I get it to be hotter for the basking spot? I put a big branch, if you make a circle with your index finger and thumb, thats about how big around it is, and one has an angle to where its almost flat, so that would kind of work, but its not secure, I'm going out of town tomorrow for two days, so I can't get the things today or then, so I will get the things in 3 days. Basin, how was your setup compared to mine, and aren't green trees like $1k each? or is that blue?

ah, and I forgot something again, I've only had this for two weeks, and the tail might be from the ride over, because he was in like a box for 2 days, so that might be one of the reasons.

Please understand this, who cares why it has a sunken in tail. Its not about blame. Its about how much time you have to fix it.

This is so important so many newbies say, its not my fault, I did what I was told(or so you thought) Its in your cage, therefore its without question, your fault.

So take responsibility for it. Even if it dies, its not the end of the world, except for the monitor.

Its all about you supplying husbandry, that gives that animals the BEST chance of survival. There are no guarantees, in fact, the chances of it living 3 years are fairly low. The reason I say that is, they wild caught indos, RARELY live 3 years.

notice how these lacies are on a branch, it does not have to be flat. They are designed to live in and on trees. They can also walk on the ground. The ground is mainly for us, these animals fit other places. And in other places.

Love those lacies! Australian monitors are probably the coolest monitors.... Once, I've seen a lace jumped of a tree and ran into a bush.

going from one source to the next will only get you confused...your lizard will pay the price of this cofusion.

you got one experienced keeper to help you with your husbandry...good be done with it and follow his wisdome.

jobiensis are very easy to keep...not as bullet proufe as varius but still way more forgiving then prasinus.

its a mistake to change your set up every new tips you get...it should be right from the start...anything you do now will stress your lizard and may do more harm then help.

The key points in all lizards husbandry are simple...is it feeding? how much? how often? what foods?

not feeding! why? enviermental stress? your temps...hydration...no concealments...too much disterbance...physical stress? you keep disturbing the dang thing...too many preys running in the enclosure...wrong size prey...wrong type preys.

all problems go away if you pay attention to your lizards needs...simply watch his feeding without being intrusive...this simple task will let you know everything you need to know.
it cant be any simpler

Monitors are easy when you give them choices. Not tell them what to do. So far, monitors rebell against that.

The picture has three species that hatched the same day. Cheers

If you want to impress me say they hatched from the same clutch...

That is a Green Tree. I payed 1,4K for a trio. Lost two. So now I own a 1,4K Green Tree...

I wonder if you gave it a day/night cycle? Basically, did you turn off the lights at night so it can rest? 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of darkness is good, and I tend to use a florescent tube to brighten up my reptiles cages. They have better appetite if the room is very bright.

he's feeding just fine, crickets, superworms and the occasional pinky, and fr, I'm not blaming that on the breeder, I'm just saying that might be the cause, but I guess it's my fault. FR also, the lace monitor thing, the branch looks just like that, only at a smaller scale, and jobi, when you said I've got one experienced helper, did you mean you or crocdoc, from the things you said I know your experienced, and I know croc is, so yeah, the temp isnt as good as it needs to be, the humidity is pretty high, I'm getting a temp gun pretty soon, and also a humidity gauge. thanks for everything you guys have all said, its been a LOT of help.

I meant David that alcholic burp from down under...FR has not a clue about indo monitors he learned everything from reading this forum...one last advise dont belive everything you read.

just kidding Dave is one fine jack, hes doing very well with just about every animals he touches.

Needles to say Frank is by far the most competant varanophile in this extant world, a wise keeper would follow his words while hes still senil

Paradon,

I wish you would keep your nose out of these discussions. It's clear you have no clue what you are talking about. 12/12 is not going to help him right now. If anything a 24 hour cycle is a good bandaid because it will allow the monitor to have the choice to come out, bask, eat and do it's daily duties without it's keeper gawking at it. While 24/7 lighting is not neccesary it sure is a good tool to have in the toolbox.

Hope,

I agree with what Jobi said about not constantly changing the cage with each new piece of advice. Ideally you would have had this crap ironed out before obtaining the lizard, since we can't change that now I might reccomend starting a new cage, get that one setup and tweaked and then once you think you might have it inline with the basic needs of your lizard you can just pop him in his new cage.

Yeah, what happened was I had a hedgehog, he absolutely HATED me, he'd be with my brother, all happy, wander of to me and spike and bite me like crazy, he would run in circles in his cage at night and keep me up, I got tired of it. Traded him in for the cage I have, originally was going to have a water, which I probably wouldn't have been ready for, though I've heard besides their size and food needs they're very easy to take care of, but I would've had $200 to spend on the accessories, but I got the peach throat and had about $20. I've made like $60 since then, so I can get the things for the cage, but I won't have an extra cage for the peachie to stay in before I get the main cage finished, until my tegu moves out of his cage. I might get a plastic box with dirt in it maybe?

I don't know about that, though.... The darkness helps the body to recuperate or is it regenerate. (Even plants responds to lights.) Their body can tell the difference between days and night. Some of the stuff that goes on in side the body and how it reacts to the environment is involuntary even in humans. We don't even know about it and can't control it. Like our reflexes that allow us to react quickly when injuries occur and reaction to something that our senses perceive as danger which frightens us so we can avoid it without thinking about it first, and then maybe analyzing the situation later. A lot of things goes on without us knowing it. It's true with people and animals.

Do you believe that the animals think that dinky lightbulb is the sun? The truth is No one has shown better results (with Varanids) using 12/12. I think Krusty uses 12/12 or a variant thereof, and mayebe someday he'll be able to make a case for it being better...but not yet.

For a newbie still trying to figure things out a 24 hour access to full basking temps is nothing but good. It goes back to that thing about CHOICES! A properly designed cage will allow the animal to choose "out" light and heat,"in" dark and heat, dark and cool, etc, 24/7. This is a GOOD thing and critical for a person whose day to day husbandry decides whether the thing is going to make it until next week. Start with what has been proven to work and then when the animal isn't a step away from St. Peter then you can play with alternate methods.

While I agree that there are things that go on with our animals that we don't know anything about it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Paradon said

"I don't know about that, though.... The darkness helps the body to recuperate or is it regenerate."

What makes you think they can't get to darkness in a cage with 24hr lighting...It's pretty flipping DARK in a darn burrow...or in a hollow log, or beneath a pile of stacks....or nestled under some leaf litter..........Or even just in the open on the other side of the stinkin cage.....

It's that A to Z mentality again that Frank talks about...I blame bearded dragon forums....

I'm saying their body can tell difference between light and darkness, night or day.... That's why you give them day/night cycle. Their body can sense it. Plants can sense it even though they are not animals and respond accordingly.

It's true.... If you still don't believe me, you can try turning off the incandescent light at night when the animals are still awake..... It'll find a nice cozy spot and go right to sleep.

What your totally missing is, no monitor is awake all day, or sleeps all night. That is a human thing and humans do not or should not do that. Sleep when your tired. period

Monitors are only out for small parts of any day, IN NATURE. They spend most of their lives in dark places. In fact, they are a reptile of the shadows. In the summer in areas where varanids live. They are mainly out, early mourning and late evening.

I have asked this a million times, WHEN DO MONITORS SLEEP? and how long do they sleep. No one has even bothered to guess that. I have to tell you, mine are often out and awake at night in the dark, if its warm enough. The thought of the sleeping 12 hours in a row is silly. THey only do if forced to.

About your naive analogy, Plants cannot move, they have roots and are STUCK where they are. Monitors have feet and move to where they want to be.

If you let yours out of its cage, I will do one thing, It will find a hole and stay there. Then wander off and find more holes. Their entire life is all about holes. Not all about open.

The point is, holes are far friggin more important, 24/7/365, then being out. Thats why we SAY, deep substrate, hollow logs, retes stacks, things where they can go and be secure in temps, humidity and from big scary ugly things(you) That is where they live.

Anyway, they do need to rest and recuperate, and that is what holes, hides, shelters are for. And they do that anytime they want, night or day.

Its you being a bonehead and thinking they are suppose to be out(lite) all day and in(dark) all night. That does not occur in nature, and it should not occur in captivity. That is you telling them what to do. Not them doing what they do.

ALso like Nate says, the best results are gain from giving them THAT choice. I have and do keep them in cages with lite and dark, lites on 24/7 and outdoors. And outdoors with lites on 24/7, guess what, lites on 25/7 is far more forgiving and supports them better. Why, bacause they can make their own choices.

Also, when keeping groups, we find some bask at night, and others bask in the day. But nearly always, they bask when your away, even if they are tame. They do not like to be watched basking. I want to see you basking in the open, in say, afganistan. hahahahahahahaha well thats what its like for reptiles. The open is full of dangers.

Good luck and what do you have to show for your theories? you know, results. If you do not have anything, then why are you saying anything?????? This is a question not to be answered here, instead, you can explain that to yourself.

OMG... There...you see my point? You are so full of yourself! [chuckle] My iguana sleeps soundly through the night with the lights off, and I have to make a bit of effort to wake him up. He's out cold when in the dark at night. He does wake up a little bit before the lights come on, but other than that, he sleeps like a rock. And, yeah, I would bask out in the open in Afghanistan...if I was an Afghan! [chuckle]

The point is, you do not have a point, your just taking about theories and bullbeans. With only the smallest about of actual experience. i asked, how do you support your theory. You do understand, theories are like bungholes, every ones got one. in fact, with people, everyone has lots of theories.

I am talking about varanids and direct results gained from using certain types of husbandry approaches on varanids. That is, in context to the subject, not plants or iggies.

I have results from testing these approaches over hundreds upon hundreds of monitors of many many species. With the results culminating in successive generations of those species. And its not being full of myself, but many of these methods I developed are a standard in the hobby and some are named after me. That is a result of WORK.

So all in all, what have you done?

All your talking about is your single monitor falling asleep when you turn your lite out. Well what do you expect it to do, there is nothing else to do but lay there. And cozy, that is only in your mind. My bet is, if it have a choice, it would not pick anything in your cage. Same goes for your iggie. open the doors and find out!

I am not trying to be mean, but you really have to come up with something useful and proven. Something that shows results.

Why do you, because the guy with the peachie or boabasin, when he first got his monitors, its their monitors that will suffer from poor unproven advice. LIKE yours

They will be the first to tell you, the information they have found is so very conterdictory and inconsistant. You see, they do not know, you have no actual experience beyond petshop status. Yet you give answers like you do. Your advice and confusion causes harm to others monitors.

Are there other methods that work then what I recomend, oh heck yea, and I use many methods as mentioned. But thats not the point. When a question is asked about a certain problem, the answer or responce should keep that in context and be of benefit to the person asking and to benefit their monitors. NOT YOUR monitors, the person asking.

I respond with my recomendation, based on my experience. If they do not like what I say, they are free to look elsewhere.

Jobi is absolutely right, to much information is as bad as to little. The person with the problem should first decide who to ask. They should decide that by what kind of results that person has. Then they need to follow those instructions. TILL THE END. Not jump around doing all this and that, IN THE HOPES something will work.

The worse thing a keeper can be is indecisive.

So I ask you, why not remember the context of the thread, and consider the person and their monitor. Before you go about with your novice theories. Cheers

Yes, you are! You are full of yourself! I don't think breeding is a good way to determine success. Some people don't have the time and money. A lot of people can keep them alive much, much better than you can! [chuckle] That is not a lie! You should try it sometime! A lot of people's advices make a lot of sense...much more than yours.... [chuckle]

Of course you don't think so, the reason you don't is you do not want PEOPLE to think you keep your animals substandardly. And you do.

Heres why, healthy monitors lay eggs, period, you do not need to hibernate them, photoperiod them or anything. Just feed them.

You do understand to reproduce is NORMAL for animals, that is what they DO to exsist.

What is sad is, reptiles can exsist in poor conditions and wait until conditions support reproduction. Unfortunately, this is the problem with the species we are talking about, many indo types come for tropical forests/jungles, which means, they have little need to develop the need to make it past droughts. So they perish faster in captivity. Such species from wet/dry areas, must maintain the energy to survive long periods of drought(lack of water/food) drought=to not have.

So your little arguement that reproduction in not a sign of health is very very naive and a rationalization on your part.

If full of myself means, I am lucky enough to have learned from my animals, then yes, I am full of myself. More then that, I am very lucky to have experienced what I have.

What about you, your empty. hahahahahahahahahahaha And it appears you want everyone else to be too.

What a laugh! Well, we can pretty much let the truth speaks for itself! [chuckle] I don't think I can make it any clearer for you, or maybe you just refuse to listen. The first word out of your mouth is usually about the person and doesn't really have anything to do with husbandry advice. It's so convoluted and I don't think any beginners could understand. If you are going to give advice, just get to the point.

Hey, what is so "convoluted"?
You think peoples are so cretins to not understand what FR explaine ?
It's totaly clear.

"... FR also, the lace monitor thing, the branch looks just like that, only at a smaller scale"

Absolutly NOT.
The branch's section are NOT in adequation with the monitor body's section. Your branch are TOOOOO thin and probably useless.

lud, the branch I am using could fit 6 of my lizards into one spot, saying its thick enough for it definitely, its not in these pictures. What I am going to do, is not handle it for a while, and not change the cage until I have everything, then wait about a week for him to settle in before I start handling again. I'll post another picture after I'm done.

just a sugestion...if you let him come to you for food he will learn to trust you much faster then if you force handling...go slowly and befor you know it he will climb on you...stay close to the cage so he can run to it for safty...in a few months youl be able to walk the room with your monitor on your sholder.

I've heard that before and I'll try to use it some. Is that nile tame?

all nils learn to trust you with time...they have an exelent memory and will remember if you mistreat them...usualy nils become less nervous after 3 to 4 years...however when letting them come to you like I do they are very friendly befor one year time...when I start them young it take only a few days for them to see me as a provider and they stay this way into adulthood.

Tomorow will try to upload photos of my doter hosing down a couple very large Kenian ornated nils...my dog lapping water beside them. This is a young Kenian niloticus...they get intense yellow when adult.

my two Doreanus hide quite a bit,so every once in awhile i force handle them just to give them the once over to check their health.I'm going to start coaxing them with food as Frank advised me to,by placing hoppers at the entrance to their hides and bringing them out further each time.I was wondering how much damage do i do force handling them,have i made gaining their trust that much more difficult.They do let me observe them closely when they bask-to varying degree not so much fleeing upon sight and up to several minutes.

Niles are probably one of the most interesting monitors I think. But in my state (Florida), you need a permit for niles, but that's all it says, I wonder if you need a permit for ornates, but that is the least of my worries, but I will probably get a nile once I get better at keeping monitors mostly because I've heard "niles are the worst pets!!!!!!!!" but then like my mom went over to her friends house and told me that her friend had a nile that was so friendly and she loved it so much but she went out of town for a few days and there was a powersurge and her heating went out and it died. The point is I want to get a nile eventually to see for myself are they really that bad as people say, or are they just bad keepers. I really think niles would be one of the best pets for me because I like handling large lizards, but once they get 7 feet long they would be pretty hard to handle, but I also like to just watch them, or to see them digging around and just to stroke their back or something. It wouldn't even need them to be too tame, just tolerant. They are definitely something on my "pets to have before I die" list.

Jobi,

That is an outstanding nile. I wonder if you have pictures of adults colored like that. Would be cool to see.

A friend of mine has a 10 year old nile and it really did become quite calm after it was full grown and used to the house routine. Now it lives in his backyard and does just fine with the dogs and even a green iguana.

Hope,

I believe there are no bad kepts, just bad keepers, as you said. But once an animal is too big, or not so easy to tame, or has very special needs, it can be considered not a good pet.
Burmese pythons can be really tame, and yet they are bad pets. Just because most keepers are not ready for housing them. So it is more about people than the animals.
IMO.

Yeah, everything can get tame I think, you just have to be tolerant, if it bites you, don't get mad, etc., etc. But, would it be appropriate to take out the water bowl in my lizard's cage, put in a waterfall to run 24/7, take out a few inches more of dirt, have water in there and my fogger, so a 12-14" by 12-14" square of water, with a waterfall, and a fogger. If so I'll get a waterfall, take a picture and post. I'm almost sure I'm getting a waterfall, just for humidity and good looks =).