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Tigers???

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 25, 2010 04:03 PM

Not anymore...

After having this said to me.......

["call another morph you produce a name I came up with years ago...like the Tigers..what was it 6 or 7 years ago I coined the phrase..now you have tigers from someone else bloodline that you claim could be genetic more reproducable than mine..come on get real"]

Add in the fact that #1, "tiger" does not really suit the actual pattern, #2, they are from a totally unrelated line(IMO a much better line)from the "originator" of the tigers, and #3, the producer of the line I am working with made the great suggestion, to change the coined phrase from "tiger" to "Split Banded Hogs"...

For the record, I never said they were genetic but did say it was worth the try to see if it is reliably reproducable...

Guess we can not use the word "Red" or "Tiger" when talking about our hogs... Which is fine with me by the way... Keep your tigers... I will keep my split bandeds...

Replies (37)

charleshanklin Nov 25, 2010 04:33 PM

Good call! We certainly don't want any confusion with lines. I gotta post a pic of my favorite one from that line. She's a complete banded albino beauty!!
-----
If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

ddodge Nov 25, 2010 07:00 PM

I kind of thought that if a trait is just a line trait or is still unproven you can call it what you want and if there is another unproven similar trait called the same thing so be it..
However if one of those proves genetic they kind of get the name..

Proven or not you have to call something that cool something descriptive right? Or are you supposed to just call it a hognose?

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 25, 2010 07:21 PM

I think that split banded is a more proper name... They are from different lines than the tigers so to me they should be distinguished...
If it is a line trait, it is genetic... It boils down to how reliably it can be reproduced...

The tigers never proved out to be anything... The split bandeds do seem to be reproduceable... Ofcorse more test breeding needs to be done to see how it is working...

draybar Nov 27, 2010 04:28 PM

>>I think that split banded is a more proper name... They are from different lines than the tigers so to me they should be distinguished...
>>If it is a line trait, it is genetic... It boils down to how reliably it can be reproduced...
>>
>>The tigers never proved out to be anything... The split bandeds do seem to be reproduceable... Ofcorse more test breeding needs to be done to see how it is working...

that is where I see the problem....It shouldn't be given a "trade" name unless it is proven to be reproduceable (is that even a word?)
I see too many instances where you get a single animal with a slight pattern anomaly or color anomaly and the breeder wants to call it a new morph...no proving, no testing, no reproduction...jumping the gun...Prove it out and call it want YOU want.
But obviously if there is another proven line you definitely wouldn't want to use That name....seen that done before as well.
If there were two lines of "tigers" proven, the only options would be to use a different name for one or be more specific with both...."Bungholio's" Tiger line or "Cornholio's" Tiger line.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

charleshanklin Nov 27, 2010 04:34 PM

I've produced three different generations with my line and I've produced them in the first year year out crossing them. The other line mentioned has still not proven genetic and the name tiger has become pretty standard for anything with that pattern. This is one reason why I felt we needed to call them something different. I do understand what you mean as I've seen it far too often as well. A leopard certaintly doesn't change it's spots.
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If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

draybar Nov 27, 2010 04:43 PM

>>I've produced three different generations with my line and I've produced them in the first year year out crossing them. The other line mentioned has still not proven genetic and the name tiger has become pretty standard for anything with that pattern. This is one reason why I felt we needed to call them something different. I do understand what you mean as I've seen it far too often as well. A leopard certaintly doesn't change it's spots.
>>-----
>>If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.
>>
>>
>>www.hognosefarm.com

three generations and first year results in an out-cross sounds like YOUR line is THE line...especially if the other line isn't proven....
For the simple fact that Tiger is becoming synonymous with a look, and yours stand out even beyond "that" look, I would give them a more specific name. That way yours will stand out in look, name and genetics. completely separate yours from the rest.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Rextiles Nov 26, 2010 03:16 AM

I kind of thought that if a trait is just a line trait or is still unproven you can call it what you want and if there is another unproven similar trait called the same thing so be it..
However if one of those proves genetic they kind of get the name.

A line trait, otherwise properly known as a polygenic trait, is generally a heritable trait, or as you called them "genetic", traits. It's just that that these types of traits are derived from more than one gene unlike simple Mendelian traits such as Recessive and Dominant traits which makes them far more difficult to reproduce, almost kind of like a double or triple Recessive trait animal, it takes a lot of genes to combine together to create the desired complex morph. So, if someone creates a complex polygenic trait animal, for example, an "Extreme" Red Albino (since we are talking about a certain individual), then, IMHO, that individual has the right to name that specific line bred trait. After all, creating such line bred traits are often more time consuming, requiring selective breeding and years of narrowing down wanted traits whether for color, pattern or any other heritable trait that pops up.

However, it is in fact ridiculous and unwarranted to "coin" names for non-heritable or yet unproven traits. While it might be acceptable to identify a particular line as an "Extreme" Red Albino for that specific line, one has to come to terms that there are going to be other lines of Red Albinos that are going to be fairly identical or perhaps even better looking. While said individual might hold the title of "Extreme" for his line of Red Albinos, it's without merit to think that he also "owns" the label of Red for describing such an Albino that would match the color of his line.

As far as the whole "Tiger" issue goes, this trait, as far as I know, has yet to be proven by the offended party and only until now has he even argued that he believes he's the first to have coined this name for this particular pattern. Maybe he was the first to call these types of patterned hognose Tigers, but the fact is, he still hasn't proven what type of trait they are if his are even heritable to a degree. What's even more interesting is that there are a lot of these "Tiger" traits popping up in a lot of unrelated collections, my own collection included!

I have a particular female who seems to have passed this on to 2 separate clutches from different males, one being an Anaconda male and the other a PPA, so I know they are coming from two different sperm deposits as one group is het PPA and the other consists of Anacondas but both groups exhibit this type of striping. So far, mine is showing up in the F1 generation. It will be interesting to see what pops up in the F2's. Is my line a heritable trait? Time will tell. But I'm in no hurry nor do I have an ego to feed to preemptively start coining names, trying to secure my name in the spotlight. If they prove out, they prove out and only then will I announce what I have spent the time learning from my line and try and get a consensus with my peers, should anybody else have the same type of genetics, what might be an appropriate name for them. But that's just me...

Anyways, as far as I know, nobody has yet proven out this side striping pattern as being a simple trait such as a Dominant or Recessive one or whether it's a complex line trait. Even if JM did coin the term Tiger to describe this pattern, big deal! He should be content that it caught on and that people are still using it. Does he think he's entitled to a royalty or something every time someone uses that description? If so, perhaps he should think about paying the money to trademark his own lines and then the rest of us can just come up with our own public terms, something like an industry standard, and once again leave him to his own devices.

Sorry for the rant...
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

ddodge Nov 26, 2010 08:51 AM

Thanks for the great description.

I guess where I get hung up is for example. If i breed my conda to a normal I'll get condas however if I outcross my Shanklin albino to some other het albinos I won't necessarilly get Shanklin line albinos but I should get an albino that would "stand out in a crowd" right? Or would you be comfortable saying they are from that line?
sorry for turning this into a genetics classroom but since we're on the subject....

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
How does Snakeapottamus sound?? LOL

John Q Nov 26, 2010 09:28 AM

Just my opinion and what I would do.
I would not call the offspring Shanklin Albinos if I outcrossed to hets from some other line(s) of albino.
To keep the line pure I would have made my own hets using my Shanklin Albino or purchased hets made from breeding a Shanklin Albino.
I would refer to the offspring as outcrossed Shanklin Albinos in all my ads and to buyers at the shows.

Rextiles Nov 26, 2010 12:39 PM

Just my opinion and what I would do.
I would not call the offspring Shanklin Albinos if I outcrossed to hets from some other line(s) of albino.
To keep the line pure I would have made my own hets using my Shanklin Albino or purchased hets made from breeding a Shanklin Albino.
I would refer to the offspring as outcrossed Shanklin Albinos in all my ads and to buyers at the shows.

Great post John, very insightful!

That's actually, IMO as well, the proper way to label such animals since they are actually outcrossed into other bloodlines. The biggest problem with the Extreme Red Albinos is that some people that buy into those think that they are going to be reproducing those animals easily by outcrossing an Extreme Red into a totally non-related and usually a non-red colored animal and somehow think that what they got are "Het Extreme Red Albinos" when in fact what they have are "outcrossed Extreme Red line Het Albinos". I just can't see that being a very marketable term nor something that's going to roll off of someones tongue too readily or easily.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

ddodge Nov 26, 2010 12:58 PM

>>The biggest problem with the Extreme Red Albinos is that some people that buy into those think that they are going to be reproducing those animals easily by outcrossing an Extreme Red into a totally non-related and usually a non-red colored animal and somehow think that what they got are "Het Extreme Red Albinos" when in fact what they have are "outcrossed Extreme Red line Het Albinos".

ddodge Nov 26, 2010 01:03 PM

I don't know how half my post was cut off in my previous reply but...

The quote in the post above is why I didn't think a line bred trait was exactly "genetic". Yeah it will enhance the look of an animal but you won't get the desired trait in just a breeding or two etc. like a recessive or dom/codom and it's less predictable..

Thanks again guys.

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 26, 2010 01:21 PM

With some line traits, they can be selectively bred to the point where they can act almost recessive or dominant... Even codominant in some cases... It all depends on how strong the genes are...

Thats my experience with certain line bred or polygenic traits anyway...

Rextiles Nov 26, 2010 02:09 PM

The quote in the post above is why I didn't think a line bred trait was exactly "genetic". Yeah it will enhance the look of an animal but you won't get the desired trait in just a breeding or two etc. like a recessive or dom/codom and it's less predictable..

First off, let's see what the definition of Polygenic means. The word "poly" means: "1. much, many, more than one. 2. in or of many kinds or parts". The word "genic" means: "of, having the nature of, or caused by a gene or genes". So together, Polygenic means "more than one gene".

Try to think of Polygenic traits in a kind of relative way as I suggested before using Double Het Recessive (DHR) animals. If you have a pair of DHR Snows, you only have a 1/16 chance of actually producing a Snow correct? Why is this? Because there are many different variations of several different genes at play that need to be present and align properly to form the conditions to produce a Snow. This is how Polygenic traits work, many genes are combined to produce a specific phenotype. After all, DHR's are also a line bred trait if you actually think about it. You are taking a line of selectively bred mutations and inbreeding them to create a new phenotype. With non-Mendelian Polygenic traits, you are taking a line of selectively chosen animals, usually with naturally occurring Phenotypes that are more appealing or wanted, and inbreeding them to either enhance or isolate those traits that are wanted. The non-Mendelian Polygenic traits are still heritable and very reproducible, it's just a matter of playing the odds at producing the type of animal you want with the specific traits you are line breeding them for due to the fact that so many genes are at play, no different than any simple Mendelian trait animal when combined with more than one trait.

Does that make any sense? I think I'm starting to confuse myself.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

John Q Nov 27, 2010 09:30 AM

"The quote in the post above is why I didn't think a line bred trait was exactly "genetic". Yeah it will enhance the look of an animal but you won't get the desired trait in just a breeding or two etc. like a recessive or dom/codom and it's less predictable.."

Line bred traits are not recessive. You don't need to pair up the gene to get the desired look. Also, as stated by Gregg "With some line traits, they can be selectively bred to the point where they can act almost recessive or dominant... Even codominant in some cases... It all depends on how strong the genes are.". My own line of Reds behaves as Gregg is stating he has experienced. In '09 I outcrossed to several different females. I got Reds, the desired look, the trait, in those first breedings. It behaves as if it is co-dom. Not saying it is but the behavior is similar. As far as being predictable, it has behaved like a co-dom, approximately 50% of the babies have developed an excessive amount of Red when I bred to normal. When I added a recessive gene to the mix, the odds changed. I got the results of a DH x DH or similar. Fewer hatchlings that displayed the desired trait, excessive Red. That was in the first breeding. It should get better when both breeders have the desired trait and the recessive gene.

Sorry for the rambling and hope this makes sense.
John Q

ddodge Nov 27, 2010 09:41 AM

I wasn't saying the line bred trait would act as a recessive, I was trying to use it as an example, saying it wouldn't act like one, I must have worded it wrong. Wish we could edit posts around here. Thanks though it's making pretty good sense.

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 27, 2010 07:49 PM

Dustin, what John and myself were trying to get across is the fact that line traits can in fact act recessive, dominant, or co-dominant... It all depends on how strong the trait is... They can also be very predictable...

ddodge Nov 27, 2010 09:17 PM

I just re read this portion of the thread and think I have my head wrapped around the issue pretty well now...

There's some serious knowledge in this forum, Thanks!

motorhead Dec 01, 2010 08:51 PM

I understand completely what your trying to say here guys, but from a marketing stand point line traits still have some degree of being unpredictable. There is always a maybe in line traits.

JMO
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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

ddodge Dec 02, 2010 06:01 AM

I think that's the "less predictable" I was talking about

Gregg_M_Madden Dec 02, 2010 08:15 AM

And in my opinion, that is exactly what makes line traits better in a lot of ways over your basic recessive or dominant gene...

I guess this season I will see how predictable these splitbanded/tigers are when I breed the pair that produced them again this coming season...

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 25, 2010 07:27 PM

Charlie,
Be sure to post pics of that girl...

John Q Nov 25, 2010 08:09 PM

Really?
LOL
on Thanksgiving?
Well, I guess if someone said that to me I would react the same way. Regardless of what day it is.
So where does that leave me? I don't have a single hog in my collection from that breeder and go to great lengths to make sure that it stays that way.
I was so happy to see 3 albinos with the Tiger pattern in my last clutch of the year. Another new project but a welcome one.
Since I produced 3 in a clutch I think I have a chance of proving the pattern to be genetic.
So do I have to come up with another new name if this pattern proves to be genetic?


daneby Nov 25, 2010 09:40 PM

Those are pretty cool looking! I think the name "skeleton hogs" fits those ones.

Dan Eby

DDedrick Nov 26, 2010 06:11 PM

Every time I see those hogs I get goosebumps.
Those are some sirius I candy! AWESOME! !!
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D.Dedrick

garweft Nov 26, 2010 11:45 AM

That's an amazing NOT extreme, NOT red, NOT tiger, albino.... Oh darn... can I say albino??

charleshanklin Nov 26, 2010 12:17 PM

I see lawsuits across the board on this thread!!!
-----
If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

MikeRusso Nov 26, 2010 11:59 AM

Not sure if this one qualifies?? i never really thought to name it, ill just stick with "cool looking hog" and avoid issues..

~ Mike Russo

.
Image

kingsnake1 Nov 26, 2010 01:37 PM

I agree Mike..."cool looking hog"
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Greg Jackson

Gregg_M_Madden Nov 26, 2010 02:11 PM

Mike,
I never thought of a name either... I was just calling them what I thought was the standard name for the pattern and I got the response I posted... I didnt know the name was owned and I was doing something wrong... LOL... It is just a shame when some people do not know how to act...

motorhead Nov 26, 2010 03:57 PM

Gregg,Charles

Gregg,I sold you both the albino female and the het male that produced your tigers, the pair were sold to you as Shanklin line albinos ,all of the Shanklin line albinos have some degree of tiger pattern,you produced the best to date,

Charles,you sold me your line of albinos in 2007 and I have been calling thiem Shanklin line albinos.

I have tiger hold backs and plan to keep these clean of all other blood lines and continue to call them Shanklin line albinos,and if they have tiger patterns ,Shanklin albino tigers.

But I really like Cool looking hognose!

Brent @ superconda.com
-----
Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

charleshanklin Nov 26, 2010 05:53 PM

So your saying we should let a cry baby cry and not care about the negativity they bring to the hognose world? I get sick of the BS lies, and dramatics. It's really insane as to why someone would feel the need to whine and cry while thinking they are gods gift to everything.

I love reptiles, always have and always will. It's the cowards, liars, deceiving con artists in the hobby that I hate. Bullying tactics don't work with me either. The way I feel is if you have to lie and start a whole bunch of drama while trying to put everyone else down to make yourself feel like a man, go right ahead because the truth will come out eventually. Trust me when I say the truth will be told soon. Slander is a bad thing.

Pics will be coming soon as well. Sorry about some of the above just had to vent a little.
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If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

Rextiles Nov 26, 2010 06:02 PM

It's the cowards, liars, deceiving con artists in the hobby that I hate.

I feel the exact same way Charlie.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

motorhead Nov 26, 2010 06:18 PM

No i wasn't implying that at all.LOL

I truly think the name tiger fits but im the dumb a$$ that came up with name Anaconda so what do i know.

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

DDedrick Nov 26, 2010 07:44 PM

I know about being slandered. I actually made it onto the website (blog) lol.(your jealous) lol. I am so glad that the purples that I'm working with aren't "TRUE Purples" (whatever that is). I wish I would have met more guys like Charles and the guys in this thread when I got started in hogs. I would have had honest instruction instead of having to sort through all the bad advice.
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D.Dedrick

josephschmidt Nov 27, 2010 01:17 AM

My two cents.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=LTunhRVyREU

charleshanklin Nov 27, 2010 05:20 AM

Yes! That's west we are talking about Joe. Thanks for some more light on it, a pussy cat flapping it's gums.
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If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

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