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I have pictures of 2 hognose that I need to sex by looking at pictures. These are supposedly 08's and the albino weighs 50 grams and the normal weighs 90 grams. The albino is believed to be a male and the normal is believed to be female. Without seeing them first hand I am having trouble determining there sex. So all opinions would help me make a decision if I should buy them or not. Thanks.
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Another picture
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Here is another
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And here is the last picture
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It may seen strange, but on second picture could be male. You must take attention about his tale. It is round at the end, so it could be male with short, rounded tale, that do not form properly. I have one female, that turns out to be male with short rounded tale. The best option is to probing snakes.

Best regards
Grzegorz

Hognose Breeders Worldwide - join us !

Both look female to me....but I do not really put a lot of faith based on photos.
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

Females

Both look female to me..

~ Mike Russo

I want to thank you guys for your input. I thought they both look female, but there low weights threw me off. I am going to purchase these and hopefully they are both females. I will update this after I receive them.

hey paul and everyone else.
i was the current owner of the hogs. i shipped them to paul today.
i probed them and the albin (male) was probing 5 scales deep. the het(female) was probing 4 scales deep. i have no experience with hogs at all but from the pics i have seen and the depths of the probe im going to guess females as well. but since i wasnt sure i gave him a price break and told him i could not market or promise them as a pair or as both female or as both male. i really hope they turn out to be both female for him as that would great for someone who has a great appreciation for hogs and wants to deal with the tiny picky babies...lol
well paul should be able to let us all know sometime tomorrow.
thanks for all your help guys
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

It support what I wrote before. 5 scale deep - it must be male. I have also male with short tale.

Bets regards
Grzegorz

I have males probe 9 scales......so 5 would be a female in my book
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

Still dont understand why people probe snakes that are sexually dimorphic... Totally unnecessary... Its not worth the risk of damaging sex organs or stressing out the snake...

Still dont understand why people probe snakes that are sexually dimorphic... Totally unnecessary... Its not worth the risk of damaging sex organs or stressing out the snake...

Unfortunately Gregg, while the majority of neonates are easy to sex visually, there are those anomalies that are not. I've had hatchlings that were just in the middle range, just too impossible to differentiate from either sex as the tail was just too long to be a female but just too short to be a male. Obviously they have to be something, so what is one to do if these are animals that are destined for the marketplace before they get big enough to really be able to tell the difference? That's where probing comes into play! I agree, in the wrong hands, probing can lead to a lot of problems from injuring the animal to still sexing it wrong for both sexes! But still, it's a viable means of determination for those individual animals that fall into the middle zone.

About 4 years ago, I bought a pair of hognose that were less than 6 months old, a het albino female and an albino "male". I'll tell you, when I looked at those tails, the "male" looked like a male, far longer tail than the female's but it wasn't as long as some of the other males I had that were about the same age and size. Needless to say, that "male" grew up into a bona fide female!

When I visited Bob Applegate a few years ago at his ranch, he was hatching out quite a few kingsnakes and he had a tiny sexing probe that he had made himself for sexing hatchling snakes. He sexed about 30 hatchlings in less than 10 minutes with what I considered great accuracy. Of course I'm talking about someone who's been doing this for several decades, but still, he found it a more reliable and safer method than popping although he was still skilled at popping too! But yes, these are kingsnakes I'm referring to which are almost impossible to identify sexually unlike the hognose we're talking about here. I still think it's a point worth making in regards to the safety and accuracy of probing when done in the right hands.

Having said all of that, I do agree to an extent that the majority of hatchling hognose can still be visually sexed but probing is a valuable skill to have for those individuals that don't fall into the "easy to identify" category.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I agree that with most snakes that are sexually dimorphic, there can be a grey area as far as tail length when it comes to hatchlings or neonates... However, when looking at the tail, I just dont look for the length... There is also the shape... I am very aware of subtle differences in tails between males and femals from dealing with Bitis for so many years... Hogs have proven to be no different so far... Although admittedly, I do not have nearly the experience with hogs as the rest of you folks so I might not have seen anything that close yet...

With hatchlings, I do not worry much about sexing right away unless it was for sale... After a couple of months, it becomes pretty obvious whos female or male...

Besides all that, the two snakes in the photos above are adult and clearly do not need to be probed as it is pretty obvious what they are in the photos...

Lets say sexing hognose snakes visually is correct 90% of the time (personally I think the % might even be better than that), that is still just as good a probing... In some cases, maybe even better... Lets face it, no sexing method is 100%...

To me it is just not worth it unless it really needs to be done like with species who are in no way sexually dimorphic...

I agree that the majority of hognose hatchlings and neonates can be sexed visually going just be tail length alone, this is my preferred method.

As far as body shape, this doesn't seem to really come into play until 6-12 months, depending on the growth of the indvidual. Females obviously become more rotund than the sleeker males and tail lengths at this size should be more definitive, but there are those darn anomalies that still defy the standards such as large males and undersized females both with non-determinate tail lengths, this is where probing is invaluable.

In regards to my own western hognose collection as well as the animals I've hatched out over the last 2 years, I've been able to correctly identify the sexes with 90% accuracy. The remaining 10% have been individuals that fall into the non-determinate tail length type. Considering that those specific animals are ones that I am not selling, time will determine their sex as they mature. Were these animals that I were going to sell, I would either have to sell them as non-sexed or would have to probe them prior to listing them for those that want a specific sexed animal.

To be honest, I think probing a hatchling/neonate is a very risky endeavor and the risk of internally damaging the individual is significant. I've heard of cases where females were accidentally punctured therefore giving the prober the false result of being a male because the probe went to deep. I've also heard of males being equally damaged due to probing too deep. Males can also give false-positives when the probe doesn't go into the hemipenes correctly, perhaps the probe is too big or it's just not going into the hemipenes and hitting the "pocket" instead, wherein the male is incorrectly identified as a female.

For western hognose, immature sexing should be attempted visually first and probing or popping as a last alternative. When it comes to choosing between probing or popping though, I choose to probe as I've never acquired the "feel" for popping and considering that I'm missing part of my left thumb (due to an accident), it's kind of hard for me to handle a snake in that way anyways.

But I agree Gregg, when mature, Western Hognose are in fact sexually dimorphic. If you can't tell an adult female from an adult male, something is very wrong!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles