Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright so I 'rescued' a sav from the local Petco. I wouldn't not normally buy reptiles from them because I myself have had previously terrible experience with their reptiles and other animals in general, as have many people I know.

Anyway I bought her because they were taking her into the backroom, and I know from a friend of mine who worked there and quit for this very reason, that anything that goes in that room is basically left to die.

I'm a ball python person but I really didn't want to see this poor lizard be thrown in a tank in this room to be forgotten about and left to die.

Anyway I bought her, she was skinny but not terribly and once I got her home and got her in one of my 4x2x2 boamaster cages she instantly seemed better. She ate some hard boiled egg and a small mouse that night and soaked in her water dish and basked on the platform I got her. Over the next few days she improved greatly, she'd explore around my room when I got her out and she'd even crawl up my leg and lay in my lap while I typed, but then one morning when I got up to check on her I suddenly saw that she'd become EXREMELY skinny overnight, her tail was thin as a rail, and I could see her hip bones and ribs. Then I realized she had laid 7 eggs.

She was lathargic, wouldn't open her eyes, nothing, I though she was dead and I would have beived she was if she hadn't flickered her tongue. So I got her to my local reptile vet and they gave me some calcium to give her in a liquid form, antibiotics, dewormer, and a shot to hopefully get eggs they believe our bound inside her out. They did a x-ray and ultra-sound and they do strongly believe she has eggs inside that won't come out without surgery.

Anyway she won't eat, she has still been acting extremely lathargic. I have had to give her water with a suringe and some chicken and turkey baby food as well lso with a suringe.

She's in a 4x2x2 cage, she is a little under 2ft. She has a water dish big enough to soak in and it is cleaned twice a day or as needed.

Humidity is at 65%, I'm not sure if that is too much or not because when I seek answers online I get very varied answers. Her basking spot temp is 110-112. The ambient air is 85-90.

Any advice or corrections on my set-up for her would be greatly appreciated.

Thank-you.

First off I'd like to say that that was great of you to have gotten her, the humidity might be a little high, but I don't know, Petco is probably the worst shop for monitors, whenever I see one I always hope there is a good Samaritan like yourself that gets one and helps it get better. I would, but my parents wouldn't let me =/. If I was you I would be doing the exact same thing, posting someplace about help, and feeding it with a syringe. I wish you luck with it, hope that it does just fine.

Well you have already taken care of one of the most important steps by taking it to the vet. A picture of the setup would definitely help, or at least a more detailed description. I would definitely try to up the basking temps up to more around 120 or 130. Also try to leave her alone as much as possible. I know you are probly checking on her pretty often, just try not to disturb her much when you do.

Your vet should have done a simple 2-view x-ray to see if there are more eggs within her. The Calcium shot or drink can often "induce" her to finish laying if done early enough, as lack of Calcium can make them weak to lay much like in other animals. Pitocin is the next step to "induce" if needed. If she has dead eggs within her oviducts and they are rotting within her, the vet is correct that without surgery, it's usually fatal. The antibiotics may help a little bit if she's slowly getting septicemia from these retained eggs. There's no reason to add deworming to a girl who just laid eggs.

Hope you can revive her, but bad husbandry and diet, not enough heat or poor lighting and a female Monitor becoming gravid are dangerous business. I even saw an ad that someone was shipping/selling gravid wild-caught Monitors and I almost threw up in my mouth. Pet store husbandry is horrid and not a good place to buy a reptile usually. Don't even get me started on that..... Best of luck.

UPDATE:

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I greatly appreciate it and I'm glad to see people on here are actually willing to try and help. Anyway some of you asked for pictures or a better description of her setup - the pictures I can't provide at the moment but here is a better description;

She is in a 4ft Long, 2ft Deep, 2ft Tall Boamaster cage. Aspen bedding is what I had available since that's what I use for my ball pythons, so that is her substrate. She has a hide on each end of the cage, the one on the warm side is settled in a container of sand so that she could dig out her own den and such and she seemed to love being able to do that, I have a few flat slabs of rock in there because they hold in the heat well and give her a place to bask and no they don't get near hot enough to burn her, then of course she has a nice big water dish in there that gives her enough space to soak and drink from, and of course do her business in. The water was changed 2x daily or as needed.

The vet is holding her at the office for the next 3 days, and I believe that will be for the better anyway. They have her on an I.V. to give her fluids and some nutrition, since I was having to pry her mouth open in order to give her the meds and some food and water on a daily basis and that act alone was stressing the poor thing out so badly.

Sadly the vet also said there is a slim chance she'll make it. Her kidneys are not doing too well and she has Fatty Liver Disease? That's what her blood work seemed to indicate anyway. Plus her white blood cell count was 2x what it should be and the cells were dark and shriveled and as the vet stated that means her body is failing at fighting off some sort of illness or infection.

They are doing what they can for her though and I greatly appreciate them doing so. I'd love to see this girl pull through somehow though, and truly hope she does, even with the chances being as slim as they are.

Thankyou so much for the advice and answers everyone.

Your Sav has a tough battle, to be sure. I am not a fan of the vet stay because you are GUARANTEED to have sub par husbandry there during its stay. Your animal needs hydration, and to clear any remaining eggs, but what it most desperately needs is good husbandry, specifically proper moisture and temps. A vet visit means another stay in a snake cage, with a "warm spot" in the 90's. Great for snakes, terrible for monitors/lizards.

But for your own mental part, what you have done isn't "rescue" anything. You simply made a retail purchase, and supported more of the same.

Displaying an animal in terrible shape at a pet store is a tried and trued method for selling wild caught reptiles. Pet stores prey upon your compassion to turn over these sickly animals that they get for bottom dollar. Then they get your repeat business for other garbage supplies and "support" items they sell. It can actually be a lucrative business.

Once you have taken that animal home, most likely that cage isn't even cleaned, and a new wild caught garbage lizard is ordered from "Cheapy Craps Reptile Wholesalers" and put in its place, until Sentimental Jones feels sorry for it, buys it, and the cycle continues.

If you want to save animals from this reality, stop shopping at that store. Period. Stop supporting that type of disposable animal mentality. Buy from a breeder directly. Be critical of the sellers and have the highest standards possible.

Even buying feeders, supplements, books, etc from that pet store puts more money in their pockets and pays the rent, and the disposable animal bill. There are way too many breeders and sellers across the country, accessible through spots like the KS.com classifieds, that have higher standards and offer great product and animals. (there are also plenty of crappy hustlers there as well, you still have to remain critical and vigilant)

You have fallen for the okey doke, which happens tens of thousands of times each year. It can be stopped, but only through folks making better choices.

Best of luck to you and all of your animals.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

So very true. ANd

To rescue is to save from harm. In this case, to prevent its death or abuse. it means, you actually have to save it from harm or abuse, for it to be true.

This poster, like so many, thinks because they care, they are saving the animal. Except 99.99% of the time, the animal dies. So no rescue was ever realized. The abuse was only moved from one place to another.

To rescue is ongoing. and can fail at anytime.

WHat I think Robyn is trying to say is, the abuse, and what needs to be rescued is the system. The abuse is first taking millions of individuals out of nature, and allowing them to perish from that point on. of the millions exported, less then 1% make it to the next year. That is abuse.

By purchasing that animal, you are contributing, supporting, that abuse. You are supporting the collectors, the exporters and the sellers. Thats a hard pill to swallow.

Sorry, this thread is really sad and there are few answers.

If the poster allows that monitor to regain its health, and live a meaningful life, then I guess its be rescued, at least in the minimum sense of the word. To buy a failing animal is not to rescue, or even to TAKE a failing animal is not to rescue.

The sad reality is, there are lots of nice folks who attempt to rescue, but very very very very few actually get rescued. Not with varanids.

In my original post I did put the word rescue in quotes as such, 'rescue', because I do realize by buying this lizard from Petco I am indeed supporting their sales, however the truth of the matter is they only paid about $10 for that lizard and $10 to such a major company is nothing. If I wouldn't have bought that lizard it would have died and they would have shrugged and thrown it in the garbage.

By me buying it and making them stick true to their "warrenty" on their animals I am costing them 100's of dollars. The first vet visit cost them $360. The second vet visit cost them $550, because the lizard reminded in their care for 3 days, and the follow up visit in a week will be about another $300.

So for that lizard they thought they made a profit of $40 on, they are now out more money then I'm sure they'd like to be.

If more people realized that the animals they buy from Petco, esp. the reptiles, usually have something wrong with them at the time of purchase and had Petco pay for the vet bills like I have done, Petco may actually change their care of these creatures some.

I hope in my original post I did not come off as someone who just bought this monitor because I wanted a ' big cool looking' lizard and that I had absolutely no clue on how to care for it. Or that I bought it simply because I wanted to 'save' it.

I feel like what I have done was for the best. I am costing Petco, a company that I do not care all too much for, money all while in the process hopefully saving a life.

That sav did not asked to be sold into Petco's care, nor did it ask to be resold into mine, but at least I am trying to give it a better future, if a future at all and if I were that sav I'd be thankful I was bought by someone who at least reconized something was wrong and knew where to come to look for answers.

The poor thing could have been bought by the guy who stated, "Woah that's a big lizard! That thing would be awesome to get. You could feed it rats and stuff!" In which his girl friend replied, "Where would we put it?" His reply, "Oh we could get one of those tanks over there and just buy it a log or something." And the tanks he was pointing to were mere 20 gallons.

I did not mean to rant and rave here and I am not trying to start a fight. I am just here for advice on how to hopefully turn this amazing creature around and give it the best life possible. I am well aware of my actions, I am aware Petco is a terrible place to buy anything from, so on so forth, but I did not ask to be critisized for what I did, I want to know what I need to do now.

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Update;

She is home from the vet's, she's got a follow up appointment in about a week, she still won't eat on her own, but she is drinking on her own again and is being more active and alert. For now her diet is baby food and some small chunks of beef. She will not TOUCH any sort of bug. The vet was even baffled by this as he tried several types of common feeder bugs and she showed no interest or spazzed if you forced them into her mouth.

Anyone else have this problem?

Two things, the "rescue" gets used here over and over. Yet, over and over, the animal is not rescued, it dies, so no rescue was completed.

Second, if you would kindly reread what Pro exotics said. You are indeed supporting the system. Now you are rationalizing with the best of them.

Lets look at it a little bit, what vet is YOUR animal in the care of??? The vet of your choice or a company vet? Are they actually writing a check for those costs, you know, out of pocket?

What is the actual cost of that animal in the vets care, not what they charge you, but the actual cost of materials and labor?

Did they actually do anything. Did they actually accomplish anything? Did the fix the problem. Or will the "product" die and be replaced by another.

Consider, company vets are on payroll, which means their cost is constant.

If its replaced by another, that is one more taken out of nature.

Please get a grip on reality. Those large companies are there to MAKE MONEY, they have share holders and investors and they are only in it to make money. If they lost money, they would stop that particular activity, period.

You do understand, cash flow is very important in making money. lose some money here, make some over there, is not so important as the constant recieving of money, cash flow. You contributed to their cash flow. and you will continue. That is what they are after.

To be of help, you could have taken(did not pay) that animal, and contributed your cash to other areas, not that company.

AS Robyn mentioned, you are indeed part of the marketing plan for that company. They pray on caring people to rescue animals. Not just monitors either.

I or we, are not being mean to you, its just that folks like you have been here many many times with the exact same story.

We all want to be unique, but in this case, your not. I am sorry for that. Don't worry, your not alone, most of us have been taken in this way.

Like I said, I am well aware that I supported Petco buy purchasing the sav, however I did indeed cost them a good chunk of change because for one, I refused for the monitor to be treated by the vet Petco suggested me to. It was a very basic vet clinic that mostly delt with cats and dogs, and the vet even said himself that he had little experience with reptiles. Once I heard that I called Petco and demanded that the sav be seen by the same vet who I've taken my ball pythons to. This guy has been in business for more then 20 years, plus he has experience working at a reptile house at a zoo, and in this clinic he works almost exclusively with reptiles and birds. He really is a great vet and he knows what he's doing.

At the office they even showed me the bills they sent out to Petco and slips about Petco's payments to show me that Petco was indeed covering the costs of the sav's treatment. All in all so far this monitor I bought for $50 has cost them exactly $582.36, plus her follow-up appointment on the 16th will cost them close to another $100 or more if they re-do her perscriptions.

I'd like to happily inform everyone that after nearly 2 weeks of back and forth vet visits and long hours trying to force food, water, and meds into a large lizard who wanted nothing to do with any of it - The sav is doing AMAZING! Even the vet is extremely surprised with her progress. She's once again, eating and drinking on her own. She has been more active then she's ever been, climbing the log in her enclosure, digging, climbing the stack of stones I've set up for her to bask ontop of. She's even gone back to having that oh-so-wonderful sav temperment which she happily displayed for me with a swift tail-whip to the arm when I went to change out her soaking tub. Also she is finally shedding! All that nasty caked on brown and black skin is thankfully peeling away and revealing much healthier skin under.

I may have even found a great home for this monitor. The vet was telling me that one of his clients had just recently lost one of his two savs and had mentioned wanting to get another. Apparently this guy has a whole 10x12 room in his house dedicated to these monitors. As my vet described it, a lot of people try and convert a room into a reptile enclosure but this guy does it right. He said it looks like a chunk of Africa placed into a room. Maybe I can get pictures to post on here or something.

I would love to keep this girl but if I can place her in a home like that well then, that's where she'll go.

Anyway, I sort of rambled, but thank you so much to those of you who were supportive and answered the questions I had, and an even bigger thanks to those of you who contacted me via e-mail so it was easier and quicker to talk.

Now hopefully you won't see any more 'HELP' posts from me for quite some time

You see, heres the deal. Your all about you and your rescue, or attempted rescue. You go on and on defending your actions.

Yet very little comes from you about the monitor. You do not seem to be part of it.

You saying you going to find it a home. Cool, so why would be spend time helping you understand monitors. Understanding their needs is what leads to a real rescue.

If you would have come and asked for help with the husbandry of your animal, thats what you would have recieved. But your concern is you and you doing the rescue.

The point is, there is no magic simple pill, like with colubrids, that you can do to SAVE/rescue your sav. They are much different. It would take many days of several here trying to help you to do any actual longterm good.

Remember, to rescue is about longterm. Not you taking it from a petshop to someone else. That is why we gave you crap in the first place.

That is not a rescue. That is just moving the problem from one place to another.

The statistics you were given are very meaningful. 99% of all the savs imported this year, will not make it to next year. That is more then true.

Which means, finding a successful home for your sav is nearly impossible.

I wish you all the luck and success, but please, make it about the monitor and not you. i am sure your a really nice person. But the life at stake is the monitors and not yours. Its the one that will suffer and its the one that will die.

So I apologise if your offended, but what about the monitor? First, it does not know it was at a pet chain, or a vet, or any of that, it only wants to live and do something thats actually part of a monitors life. Do you even know what that is? You know, other then have a heartbeat.?????

I would really really realy REALLY like to know, to those of you who just keep posting that I have done NOTHING apparently to help this monitor in ANYWAY, do you yourself OWN a monitor? Or are you just like all those other people on other forums who just sit around and bash on anyones attempts on anything? Or are you a breeder who is just mad because I didn't purchase a sav from you?

I'm sorry if I made it sound like this posting was all about me and myself and that all I cared about was that I 'rescued' something from Petco... maybe I didn't make myself clear enough...

If I did not care about this sav and if it wasn't about the sav and it was all about me I'd have never come here. I would have gotten all the glory for 'rescuing' it from friends and co-workers and customers and whomever else I felt like boasting to.

If I didn't care about the longterm life for this monitor, why would I have wasted time and money to fuel my barely 15 mile to the gallon truck for the almost 45 minute trip one-way to a vet's office I choose to use over Petco's choice of a vet clinic? Why would I have invested in buying a $100 heat panel, along with a $90 set-up for her UV bulb, plus the money in buying her everything the vet recommended to help her feel more comfortable? Why would I be looking around to buy her a larger enclosure? I could keep her in a 4x2 set-up instead, even if that would be considered too small for a monitor who could easily reach 4ft. Or why would I even consider giving her away to a man who has so much experience with reptiles, and just recently had a sav pass after owning it for 6 years, and when he got it it was already an older monitor and it was horribly malnurished as well. He could probably give this girl a life worth living in captivity more so then most.

If it were up to me I'd put this sav back on a plane and have her let go back in the wild where she came from, but that's a bit easier said then done.

Now I'll try to wrap up this posting again. Thanks to those of you you gave me advice, it helped a lot. To those of you who disagree with my actions, that is fine, I respect your opinion, but please do not make it sound as if I have done nothing for this sav and that she will not get any better or survive. Yes, maybe 99% of imported monitors die before the next year but maybe she'll be the one who is part of that 1% that does not.

No one said, you done nothing, but again your whole post IS NOT ABOUT THE MONITOR. Its about you or me.

About me, I have kept and bred throught many generations over 20 species of varanids, many world first breedings. At this time I only keep a few varanids and do not dig up eggs. Oh less they 75 monitors I think. I have a varanid facility. most likely the largest in the states, maybe the world, which isn't saying all that much.

When I or someone like me replys to you, its often not about you. Instead others who lurk and read these posts. Its mostly for their benefit. They may learn for these threads.

Surely it will not help me in any way. It may help you, but I doubt it. i am sure your a very nice person.

The problem is your naivity. For instance you mentioned I may be a Sav breeder and I am upset that u did not buy from me. Hmmmmmmmm There are no Sav breeders. That is, anyone or any facility that is producing Savs for the pet trade. There is a clutch hatched every now and again, but not even every year.

So if you look at that. There maybe 20 captive hatched Savs a year, compared to over a million imported. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Are you getting the point yet.

Also, there is no taking them back, that would result in instant death. First off, Savs are not hatched in nature, not the majority of them. They are eggs taken from wild gravid females. Those females are released in a park, where its reported they are instantly consumed by baboons(daniel Bennett)

The females come from old fields where the burrows are easy to find and easy to dig up.

The problem is not whether they are wild or not, its the torture they recieve waiting to be shipped and being shipped, and transferred from importer to jobbers, etc etc. Most die here.

Then of course the lucky ones are shipped to where you got yours. And often purchased like you purchased yours. And with the same intentions. To be saved or rescued.

My hope was, maybe, you would really like to know what it takes to keep a Sav successfully in captivity. It was my hope.

Instead, you fell into the old poor me catagory. They are picking on me for doing something good.

Please understand, with a million being imported, what you did is commonplace. Many nice people do what you did and say what you say.

The problem is, the monitor you are saving will die before this time next year. That is the facts. So based on statistics, your monitor will die.

You can keep it alive for a short period, but thats not rescuing it. Sadly, even individuals without health problems will face the same fate.

So yes, you are just one more that will be followed by one more. But you can't blame me for trying.

To realize what your doing, you must first understand that you did not rescue the monitor. Knowing that, then you can attempt to actually rescue it. But it seems you care more about you then the actual rescue.

I do not blame you, because your destined for failure. The truth is, most rescue attempts will fail. It would be great if even a small percentage of rescued Savs live for then five years in captivity. They can live over 20yrs.

So, what next, you will run and hide and call me a bad guy. How about actually talking about the monitor. How about learning what it actually takes to keep one healthy. Then you can choose to rescue more, or not. Its a lot of work.

Well, must go feed monitors now. I do wish you all the luck and success.

And yea, those were my animals, they passed, he lived over 18 years. I now have their sons and daughters. And yea, I built the cage.

You know, what I don't get is why you keep stating that I am not trying to learn how to properly care for this monitor. Why would I have posted here looking for answers if I was not trying to learn? Or why would I spend hours reading up on what people have posted on here? Again though you are going to say that I am talking all about me. I could say the same thing about you and your last post where you are telling me about your facilities and such. I haven't seen you post any advice for me, which would be nice since you apparently have owned these reptiles for quite some time.

People have also said that I've done wrong by supporting the importing of these animals, but since there's so few actually born in captivity, where did most of yours come from? Were they all born by captive monitors? Were their parents parents wild caught? If so then in someway you yourself have supported the importing of these animals.

Thirdly, stop saying I didn't rescue this monitor. You keep saying all I did was move it's poor care and treatment to a different location. That's like you saying I am poorly caring for this sav. No, what I have for it is surely not the best, but it is better then a square foot sized tank, a water bowl big enough for it to stick it's nose in, a mere diet of some crickets, and the lack of vet care the sav needed.

Rescuing someone or something doesn't have to mean whatever was rescued lives. Firefighters rescue people from burning buildings but some people still die later on due to injuries that they had already sustained. Animal Control officers rescue dogs and cats from hoarders, but no not all of them make it. To set free, as from danger or imprisonment; to save from further harm - that's my definition of 'rescue' and by that definition I did indeed rescue this monitor from further harm. No where does it state that for this creature to have been rescued does it say it must live a long healthy life and die of old age 20 years down the line.

At least now she can stretch and use her muscles, she can climb, soak, bask, and she has a variety of things to eat. Plus she's gotten the vet care she needed to turn around and start down the road to a better life then what she had at Petco or in the care of an idiot who'd have never known there was something wrong with this monitor and would have only have bought it because it was 'cool'.

I also don't appriciate you saying that this monitor 'is going to die' because despite the facts, which I don't doubt are accurate, you don't know for sure. You even said yourself 99% of them die, well 99% isn't 100%. The 99% that don't make it are more then likely the ones bought by that guy who just wants a big, mean looking lizard that he can throw a mouse to when his buddies are around, so they can all ooo and ahh over a lizard eating a mouse. And if the lizard dies or gets sick? Oh well. They can go buy another one. Why spend $100s at the vet's when the lizard was only $50 at Petco?

I'm not one of those people. I don't think animals lives are disposable, that's why I am trying to find out every bit of information I can to help this sav and to give her everything she needs, because it's not about me it's about her and her welbeing.

So if you have any information or advice on how to properly care for this sav, I'd love to hear it. From the information I've gathered on this site I believe I have a decent temperary enclosure set-up for her, but I'm open to hearing more from different people, esp. people who have successfully owned these monitors for long periods of time.

Thanks

People just don't spring up out of the ground with experience, I'm sure you didn't. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I think, in this crappy scenario, you have to see something positive in the situation. And that is the animal recovering from the ordeal and ultimately benefitting from your advice on the forum (FR).
The animal at Petco now has a channel of information from you and hopefully the owner will listen to it all. but yes, the cycle is a diasterous one and how will it end...

xstraykitten, please check into why the Sav died at the guy with the room place before relocating that one.

So I don't know what comes first that creates these situations. it seems the demand supplies itself as most perish..

Maybe Petco bought these:
"GRAVID SAVANNA MONITORS : GET THEM WHILE YOU CAN! "
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209255
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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

Having worked for a Petco before when I was younger...trust me, they don't pay whatever costs the vet showed you. And whatever minimal amount they do actually pay the vets they use, is all used somewhere down the line as a tax write off. Just be aware that your actions did nothing to "stick it to the man." Not to mention, the gross markup on their animals (I was also privy to their wholesale costs) goes well beyond the minimal retainer fee they pay that vet to be "their" vet.

Believe me, its no loss to them to throw it away to get a sucker to take it off their hands then buy thousands in pet care supplies for months to years. You see thats where they make the money. Aside from the $1 lizard you bought for $100-$300.